Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Padre86]

A.) Granted the point had to do with Ulfric not being useful to the Thalmor, it does make sense to use the fact that he gave up useful information as a counter to that point. So, regardless as to why it was true that he aided them by giving up information, he aided them by giving up information thus adding to the point of his usefulness to the Thalmor.

 

The information wasn't useful because it was outdated by the time Ulfric divulged it. Any military advantage that could have been derived from that information was long gone due to the Imperial city falling. Also, I think perhaps you're confusing "aiding" the enemy with simply succumbing to torture. FWIW even the US military's code of conduct acknowledges that its service men and women have a breaking point at the hands of enemy interrogators. The code of conduct is much more focused on how those service men and women conduct themselves up until that point.

 

B.) "... I agree the Talos issue was a minor issue in and of itself..." Exactly. In fact, there are still Talos worshipers who side with the Empire, Legate Rikke being one of them so it was actually likely easier to get away with worshiping Talos prior to the Civil War which means his actions only truly serve civil unrest much like was pointed out before.

 

The Talos issue is minor, but the it is representative of a much bigger issue (whether the Thalmor should be allowed to impose themselves so freely on the Empire and its citizens). I would like to see your response to that point. I'm not sure how you can claim that life for Talos worshipers was easier prior the civil war. Do you have sources for this? And besides, if Talos worship wasn't an issue do you really think the Thalmor wouldn't find some other reason or grievance as justification for imposing their justicars and patrols on Skyrim and the other provinces?

 

Also, "...After returning from imprisonment, all of his actions and commands have been focused on promoting the worship of Tiber Septim..." Not exactly. A lot of his actions and commands have been focused on his desire to be High King and promote unrest in Skyrim... the second thing being exactly what the Thalmor want.

 

Disagree vehemently with the notion that Ulfric wants to promote unrest. He wants to be High King for sure, but his second ambition is to have a free and independent Skyrim. The unrest is simply a byproduct of that struggle. His promotion of Talos worship and, in the event that the player chooses to side with the Stormcloaks, the success of the rebellion is very much a slap in the face to Thalmor ambitions. The Thalmor want Skyrim and the Empire to bicker and fight. They don't want an independent, Nordic kingdom, free of the constraints of the White Gold Concordat; that's just one more potential enemy they'll have to contend with should they ever choose to resume their war.

 

C.) "...Agreed, Ulfric was hostile because he has open hatred for the Thalmor. He is not willingly helping them. ..." Irrelevant as his hostility and or willingness has nothing to do with whether he is a pawn or not. This isn't even a counter to anything as I am pretty sure that most people stating that Ulfric is a Thalmor asset are not arguing that he is willingly helping them. He's just too blinded by his own ambition to see that he is doing what they want him to do.

 

Again source for this? Where is this notion that Ulfric has no foresight or political savy coming from? According to you, Ulfric is blunt and direct and too shortsighted to see the true threats and intents of the Thalmor. Yet somehow this man started an organized and coordinated rebellion out of nothing, won the allegiance of half the Holds and Jarls through political cunning and/or persuasion and the other half through military prowess. Ulfric fought and suffered greatly in the Great War. I think he knows exactly the magnitude of the threat the Thalmor pose, which is why he is all the more driven to succeed in his rebellion rather than prolong it. Ulfric can only be considered a "pawn" to Thalmor ambitions so long as civil unrest continues. Once Ulfric's revolt succeeds and Skyrim becomes independent, there is absolutely no way anyone can consider him a Thalmor pawn.

 

 

"...The only way that Ulfric can be considered a pawn of the Thalmor is that he is waging war against the Empire and distracting it from the Thalmor threat. But as someone else pointed out, by that definition the Emperor and General Tullius are also Thalmor pawns for the very same reasons...." This isn't true. Without the rebellion, there is no civil war in Skyrim and no immediate war with the Thalmor. Without the Empire, there would likely still be Civil War as Ulfric would have found another reason to justify why he should be High King and there most certainly would have been immediate war with the Thalmor.

 

So no, The Empire is not a pawn by responding to Ulfric breaking the law.

 

You're making an hefty assumption on what Ulfric might have done in the absence of Imperial rule. No point in pursuing that conversation as it is mere speculation on your part. But my point on how the Imperials play into Thalmor ambitions as much as Ulfric and the Stormcloaks still stands; you have done nothing to disprove it. The Thalmor want unrest and civil conflict in Skyrim. It distracts at least some of the Imperial's military and financial resources from the inevitable round 2 war with the Thalmor. In that sense, both Ulfric and his rebellion and the Imperial attempt to crush said rebellion support Thalmor ambitions. It doesn't matter in the least bit whether or not the Imperial response was justified and simply a response to someone breaking the law. Their actions are exactly what the Thalmor want. In that sense, there are numerous "pawns" serving Thalmor interests, not just Ulfric. General Tullius even acknowledges in game that the real fight is with the Thalmor and this civil war in Skyrim is a distraction.

 

It surprises and confuses me that the Empire militarily/politically abandoned Hammerfell to its own fate, readily agreed to the White Gold Concordat rather than risk war by demanding more even terms but is so willing to commit forces and spill blood to keep one of its provinces from seceding. Emperor Titus Mede had a great victory in the Great War, but his decisions leading up to and following that point leave many questions about his long term strategy.

 

 

E.) It's also possible that the note was written by and or a strategy of Tulius to cause people to lose faith in Ulfric... but so things are so improbable that you may as well say they are not the case. You ever hear that the simplest explanation is often the most likely? Well, with where the note was located it borders on absurd to think this was some attempt at underhanded play. And because of the 4th wall aspect of things, meaning the way games like this tend to be written, if it was intended to be planted and just wasn't it would have been told to us in some way.

 

Since this isn't the strongest of your points, it's just in your best interest to let E go.

 

I'm not holding onto E. But just because it seems likely that the note was accurate and demonstrated the true intentions of the Thalmor, doesn't mean it most certainly was. There's a lot in this game that is left open to interpretation and speculation. I'll leave it at that.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Padre86

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

The information wasn't useful because it was outdated by the time Ulfric divulged it.

Not saying you're wrong, but where was this stated?

Also, I think perhaps you're confusing "aiding" the enemy with simply succumbing to torture.

I'm not. Whether someone provides me information I use to succeed in doing something because I bribed them, tortured them, or simply observed them; they helped me. "Help" is synonymous with "aid" so he aided them. Unwillingly, but he did.

How much he helped here would be speculative and pretty much irrelevant so I would need to see where it says the information he gave was useless and there can be no source that says otherwise in order for that to stand.

The Talos issue is minor, but the it is representative of a much bigger issue (whether the Thalmor should be allowed to impose themselves so freely on the Empire and its citizens).

The bigger issue here is actually two formidable forces making themselves weaker instead of building up strength and or preparing for round 2. If Ulfric was so big picture and so good at being underhanded with subterfuge and the like he would know this already.

He could have proposed this if he wanted. "We need to be making preparations. There's no way the Thalmor will let this peace stand. They will find some excuse to bring war back to our doorstep and we need to be ready or better, be ready before them and bring war to their doorstep!"

But there was a huge problem with that for him, his chance to be High King would have likely never came or taken longer than he would have liked. People good at that subtle stuff have to have patience as subtle tends to take longer to yield a result (success or failure) than blatant.

I'm not sure how you can claim that life for Talos worshipers was easier prior the civil war.

You aren't sure why I would think it would be easier to explain disappearances/murders during a time of civil war than during a time without one?

Okay.

Do you have sources for this?

Nope.

And besides, if Talos worship wasn't an issue do you really think the Thalmor wouldn't find some other reason or grievance as justification for imposing their justicars and patrols on Skyrim and the other provinces?

For all we know, the Thalmor might have been scratching their heads trying to figure out how to cause this level of chaos in Skyrim and then Ulfric handed it to them and or gave them the idea during his capture and then they realized it would be more of a benefit to them if he "escaped" than if they kept him captive.

I guess we'll never know for sure if they wouldn't have found another excuse, but we definitely know one thing for sure. Thanks to Ulfric, they didn't have to. )

Disagree vehemently with the notion that Ulfric wants to promote unrest.

Okay, I worded/grammared that one wrong. What I meant to say was that Ulfric does NOT want unrest. He wants the crown and he doesn't care if he causes unrest in order to get it.

So he doesn't want unrest but if that's what needs to happen to get control of Skyrim then meh.

The Thalmor want unrest so they let a pawn advance in order to get an Empire to respond. Ulfric is a piece on the board that is useful but he isn't important to the Thalmor so he is a pawn. A pawn depending on where it lands can create a situation where it must be taken but that doesn't make the reacting piece/side a pawn.

You're confusing predicting the moves of your enemy and thus using that knowledge to entice them. When I fish, my bait is the pawn. The fish will bite (on a good day anyway, lol) but the fish isn't my pawn. The fish is the prize/goal. Ulfric isn't their goal, a weak Empire is and he helps advance that goal just like the bait helps me get my goal of the fish and yes, the fish doing what it is supposed to do helps me towards the goal of catching it, but we are not equally at fault or to blame.

He wants to be High King for sure

That's all and since you made it clear this is his first priority (as have others in the game (including some of his own supporters)) this means that his primary goal will be what primarily influences his actions.

They don't want an independent, Nordic kingdom, free of the constraints of the White Gold Concordat;

This is like saying they actually care who wins in the civil war and they don't. If anything, the Stormcloaks winning and separating from The Empire would leave both broken and bloody.

The Empire wins, there's still losses but they still have each other as a unified force... The Stormcloaks win, same losses only now neither have the other for any kind of military support.

If I'm Thalmor, I definitely prefer the Stormcloaks to win. I mean it would be most ideal for the war to rage on for awhile before either is able to claim victory but once the outcome happens it is definitely better for the Stormcloaks to win.

Again source for this? Where is this notion that Ulfric has no foresight or political savy coming from?

I didn't know what to type here. I played the civil war questline many times as an Imperial and as a Stormcloak and there is plenty of dialogue that support this notion. I think you may have gotten the wrong copy of Skyrim if you didn't realize the ambition, blunt, and direct approach of Ulfric.

This thing borders on being part of a version of the Red Oni vs. Blue Oni Trope. The Empire (Blue Oni) being political and "rational" in their mindset vs. The Stormcloaks (Red Oni) being passionate and quick to action. Sure the actual colors are reversed but still.

According to you, Ulfric is blunt and direct and too shortsighted to see the true threats and intents of the Thalmor. Yet somehow this man started an organized and coordinated rebellion out of nothing, won the allegiance of half the Holds and Jarls through political cunning and/or persuasion and the other half through military prowess.

You asked me for sources but uh, what supports this political wizard version of Ulfric you speak of?

Ulfric is clearly meant to be the embodiment of a "True Nord" and Nords typically value being direct and blunt. It's even in their typical preference of combat style which is one of the reasons they prefer hand held weapons to magic.

Ulfric was able to get half the people on his side for 3 reasons, none of which have anything to do with him being some kind of political mastermind:

1.) The issue of worshiping Talos. While for him, this is only a means to "justifiably" make an attempt for the crown, for many Nords this is the only issue. This is why some of them clearly state that they don't trust Ulfric and or know he is not the answer, but fight on his side anyway.

2.) He is very charismatic. In addition to being a Nord, through and true, he also speaks in a way that empassions and motivates people and that goes a long way in addition to his strenght and proof of being a strong warrior.

3.) Bethesda wanted it that way.

Once Ulfric's revolt succeeds and Skyrim becomes independent, there is absolutely no way anyone can consider him a Thalmor pawn.

I actually explained why his victory would actually better suit the Thalmor than an Empire victory.

You're making an hefty assumption on what Ulfric might have done in the absence of Imperial rule.

I find it humorous that despite there being nothing that clearly even suggests the idea of a note being a tactic, that you felt it was enough of a possibility to mention that it could be, Ulfric is mentioned as ambitious and/or that his intentions are clearly not pure by several people (some being on his side mind you) and that's not enough to say what he would do, lol. It's a "hefty assumption" to you. Okay.

Their actions are exactly what the Thalmor want. In that sense, there are numerous "pawns" serving Thalmor interests, not just Ulfric.

Again, the fish taking my bait is exactly what I want but it isn't my pawn. The bait is. I'm actively using the bait to get what I want. The fish is the prize. Ulfric = bait/pawn. Weakend Empire and Skyrim = Prize.

General Tullius even acknowledges in game that the real fight is with the Thalmor and this civil war in Skyrim is a distraction.

This fact is against, not in support of, your argument(s) The Empire is the one that can see what is going on. To support your argument(s) you need a quote from Ulfric saying that the real fight is with the Thalmor and that the Civil War is a distraction.

Oh, but of course you meant in support of the idea that the Empire is just as much a pawn as Ulfric in which case still doesn't support this. If I know it is a trap to go in an save my friend's (or insert any desired important loved one here) life and know that is what my enemies want, I am not a pawn nor am I just as much the reason for what happens as my enemy is. What am I supposed to do? Not save them?

But yes, this quote damaged your argument regarding Ulfric knowing what is going on here. To repair it, find a quote that says the same thing but is coming from Ulfric. Galmar is so clueless about what is happening that when Tullius goes to explain it to him, he doesn't even know what Tulius is talking about. Galmar being the closest to Ulfric is aware of his ambitions as Ulfric has discussed this with him... but not about the civil war being good for the Thalmor? But find his quotes about the war helping the Thalmor and that won't matter.

I'm not holding onto E. But just because it seems likely that the note was accurate and demonstrated the true intentions of the Thalmor, doesn't mean it most certainly was.

My point is, this thing isn't supported at all in anyway. Period. Bringing it up as a possibility is just as useful as bringing up that it is possible that ink wasn't used to write the note because it doesn't explicitly state anywhere that notes were written with ink.

[monganfinn]

 

 

 

: TheObstinateNoviceSmith

 

But there was a huge problem with that for him, his chance to be High King would have likely never came or taken longer than he would have liked.

 

There´s no proof whatsoever that Ulfric´s driving goal is to be High King. It is even outright stated that under Istlod, Torygg´s father Ulfric wouldn´t have pulled his duel stunt because Ulfric respected him too much. I know it is a wide spread theory and I know that even ingame many in both factions say it, but isn´t proof either as obviously those aren´t all knowing or wihtout bias either. At the very least most of what Ulfric himself says contradicts it: "Skyrim might not belong to me, but I belong to Skyrim!"

Now naturally he also might lie, he also might lie when he is only talking to Galmar, we dont know, and we never will, but to say that he would have started a civil war for the crown alone no matter what, is nothing but pure speculation based on hearsay!

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

The Thalmor don´t want a Stormcloak victory! It is stated as such in Ulfric´s Thalmor dossier: "A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided,"

 

On the info he coughed up and how helpful it was:

"He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken),"

 

Some further dialogue:

"I have shown the people that when our Jarls drink the Empire's milk, it makes us weak. I must now show them the path that will lead us back to our strength. There is no progress without sacrifice. No wheat without threshing the chaff. The Empire and the Jarls who back them must be swept away. The people demand it. I demand it."

"Not entirely true, though not entirely false either. Any Nord can learn the Way of the Voice by studying with the Greybeards, given enough ambition and dedication. My shouting Torygg to the ground proved he had neither. However, it was my sword piercing his heart that killed him."

"I killed Torygg to prove our wretched condition. How is the High King supposed to be the defender of Skyrim, if he can't even defend himself?"

I challenged him in the traditional way, and he accepted. There were many witnesses. No 'murder' was committed. True, he didn't stand a chance against me. But that was precisely the point! He was a puppet-king of the Empire , not a High King of Skyrim. His father before him perhaps, but not Torygg. He was too privileged and too foolish, more interested in entertaining his queen than ruling his country."

- On the duel with Torygg

 

At this point, you can ask Ulfric if he desires to be the High King. He will respond by not giving you a clear answer and instead says, "There hasn't been a true High King in Skyrim for generations. For too long he's been hand-picked by the Emperor, and given emphatic nods by milk-drinking Jarls addicted to Imperial coin. It's time we had a real king. One of our own making." -This could indicate an underlying wish to become High King, but at the very least he is subtle about saying it. But no matter how you dice it, he never implies that he wants to become HK no matter the cost and no matter who sits on the throne. At least how he says it here it seems he would accept a strong HK.

 

"We're fighting because we're done bleeding for an Empire that won't bleed for us. Untold numbers of Nords died defending the Empire against the Dominion. And for what? Skyrim being sold to the Thalmor so the Emperor could keep his throne! We're fighting because our own Jarls, once strong, wise men, have become fearful and blind to their people's suffering. We're fighting because Skyrim needs heroes, and there's no one else but us." - Why he started to rebel

 

"My father, the great Bear of Eastmarch, died during my imprisonment after the Markarth Incident. I, his only son, forced to deliver his eulogy via a letter I had smuggled out of prison. Such is the love of Titus Mede for his subjects." He will then continue, telling you about his return to Windhelm: "When finally set free, I returned to Windhelm, and was greeted by a city in mourning, at one with my own grief and anger. Clamoring in angry voices, calling out for justice, for war, they sat me on the throne. The Throne of Ysgramor! The throne of my father... I only hope I can prove worthy of the honor." -Might be a ruse, but the last part doesn´t sound like a power hungry monarch.

 

Then the Great War came... I couldn't stand missing it. I often think about High Hrothgar. It's very... disconnected from the troubles down here. But that's why I couldn't stay, and why I couldn't go back. I suppose the Greybeards care about Skyrim's troubles, in their way, but I needed to do something about it. - clearly this shows how much of a disregard he has for Skyrim -note the sarcasm-

 

The Greybeards believe the Voice should be used only for worship of Kynareth. I have... fallen from their strict teaching, but I still don't feel it should be used lightly. Not all of Arngeir's lecturing was wasted, it seems." -

 

That´s his dialogue, it might be just a facade of him but if it is it at least makes him a good liar IMO, otherwise this clearly shows that he cares for Skyrim and its people, respects the Greybeards and their philosophy far more than I do and is fully aware of the moral grey areas of using the thuum and of the rebellion. And yet he does it because he feels it is something he MUST do.

 

"We've been soldiers a long time. We know the price of freedom. The people are still weighing things in their hearts."

"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's [sic] names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed."

"I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn."

"Is any man ever ready to give the order that will mean the deaths of many."

- dialogue with Galmar alone, clearly he is a powerhungry monster.

 

"There will be peace for a time, during which we must rebuild Skyrim into the land it once was. Strong. Self-reliant. The center of mankind. Because getting rid of the Empire was only half the problem. Soon, the elves will again seek to rule the world. We must ready ourselves to fight them. For it will be Skyrim that shall lead Tamriel in those dark days, when the fate of the world is finally determined."Though the biggest threat, of course, is the elves."

...

"Stop what? Taking Skyrim back from those who'd leave her to rot?"

"The Empire is weak, obsolete. Look at how far we've come and with so little. When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion." - at least he clearly intents to combat the Thalmor, so yes, he knows they are the true enemy.

 

Galmar: "And now, I present to you, Ulfric Stormcloak, hero of the people, liberator and High King of Skyrim!"

Ulfric: "I am indeed Ulfric Stormcloak, and at my side the man/woman we know as Stormblade, and the world knows as the Dragonborn. And indeed, there are many that call us heroes. But it is all of you who are the true heroes! It was you who fought a dying Empire who sunk its claws into our land, trying to drag us down with it. It was you who fought the Thalmor and their puppets who would have us deny our gods and our heritage. It was you who fought your kin who didn't understand our cause, who weren't willing to pay the price of our freedom. But more than that, it was you who fought for Skyrim, for our right to fight our own battles... To return to our glory and traditions, to determine our own future!"

Soldiers: "Huzzah!"

Ulfric: "And it is for these reasons that I cannot accept the mantle of "High King." Not until the Moot declares that title should adorn my shoulders will I accept it."

Soldier: "And what about Jarl Elisif?"

Ulfric: "Yes, what about the Lady Elisif? Will she put aside her personal hatred for me, and her misplaced love for the Emperor and his coin, so that the suffering of our people will end? Will she acknowledge that it is we Nord's [sic] who will determine Skyrim's future? Will she swear fealty to me, so all may know that we are at peace, and a new day has dawned?"

Elisif: "I do!"

Ulfric: "Then it is settled. The Jarl will continue to rule Solitude, I will garrison armies here to ward off Imperial attempts to reclaim the city. And in due time, the Moot will meet, and settle the claim to High King once and for all. There is much to do, and I need every able bodied man and woman committed to rebuilding Skyrim. A great darkness is growing, and soon we will be called to fight it, on these shores or abroad. The Aldmeri Dominion may have defeated the Empire, but it has not defeated Skyrim!"

 

-Note the underlined bits, he had Galmar bring up the point of high king so he could publicaly decline it because it makes him appear humble, and I´m sure in RL he would have planted that soldier shouting about Elisif to back her publicaly into a corner and make her swear allegiance. Clearly he can use coercion and political subtlety, even if it appears heavy handed to the Jarls and those in the know, to the common soldiers and masses it comes over very well.

 

On the Dunmer in the Grey Quarter:

Jorleif: "Sir, there continues to be unrest in the Gray Quarter."

Ulfric: "Blasted dark elves. I don't suppose you could tell them that I presently have larger concerns? Such as all of Skyrim?"

Jorleif: "They don't seem to be very sympathetic to our cause, sir."

Ulfric: "Let me know if you hear anything more substantial?"

Jorleif: "Of course, my lord."

-he isn´t even clearly dismissing the Dunmer, note that Jorleif spoke of unrest without clear cause and Ulfric does want to know what is going on more specifically.

 

Saying that he isn´t diplomatically and politically or strategically savy is also ignoring all the other players on the Imp side:

Elisif? "Let´s make a parade!" It is even stated by her own Thanes that she is incompetent.

Tullius? "Wherever you Nords go when you die..." + "Damn your Jarls!" Even Rikke is exasperated by him and how he is ignorant of Nord matters, "I dont care either way if you surrender or not, your heads will be send to Cyrodiil" To Ulfric and Galmar, quite blunt if you ask me? At least more blunt than Ulfric: "The Empire I knew didn´t surrender!"

Edited April 14, 2016 by monganfinn

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

I know it is a wide spread theory and I know that even ingame many in both factions say it, but isn´t proof either as obviously those aren´t all knowing or wihtout bias either.

 

If only those who opposed him were saying it saying this isn't proof would have a bit more validity, but since there are those in support of the Stormcloak cause who also say it...

 

 

Now naturally he also might lie, he also might lie when he is only talking to Galmar, we dont know, and we never will, but to say that he would have started a civil war for the crown alone no matter what, is nothing but pure speculation based on hearsay!

 

Either you're saying Ulfric is too dumb, shortsighted, and or impatient to figure out other ways to accomplish the goal of removing Thalmor influence... or this was really about obtaining the crown.

 

 

"He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken),"

 

Okay, the information obtained after breaking him was useless so I was definitely wrong about that aspect... however, apparently he was still an asset to them which was really the point:

 

"...After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset..."

 

Clearly he can use coercion and political subtlety, even if it appears heavy handed to the Jarls and those in the know, to the common soldiers and masses it comes over very well.

 

Even a broken clock is right twice each day... but it is still a broken clock. What I mean is, everyone lies but this doesn't exactly define them to be subtle or blatant. And just because a person is a direct person and or blunt it doesn't by any means indicate that they are always such. In general, Ulfric is not this political savvy guy. He's a general. The Warrior Leader, but he's not an idiot. It's due to his ambition and or shortsightedness (maybe even arrogance as it isn't even implied that he knows the Thalmor LET him escape) that he is unable to see how he is actually being used.

 

 

The Thalmor don´t want a Stormcloak victory! It is stated as such in Ulfric´s Thalmor dossier: "A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided,"

 

As I already stated, the ideal thing would be for the war to continue therefore of course you don't want either side to win, but if there were to be a victor, logically, it would favor the Thalmor more if the Stormcloaks won than if the Empire was victorious, all things being equal.

 

Meaning, if the losses would be the same regardless as to who won, it would be better for the Thalmor if the Stormcloaks prevailed for the reasons I already named.

 

And I didn't say or imply Elsif was competent so maybe you were responding to something/someone else there as her competence, or lack thereof, has no bearing on Ulfric's. And to be clear, I am not saying Ulfric is incompetent or stupid. Ulfric is undoubtedly a great leader, but this doesn't change the other things. He still is very much good for the Thalmor and doesn't see that. He is why they didn't need to come up with another way to distract the Empire.

 

In fact, he was the way they came up with:

 

He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken), and then allowed to escape.

 

Like when the law tells a suspect something (often not true) and then they release them so they can follow them to who they were really after and or the evidence that would put that person away. Ulfric, was their plan and he obviously doesn't know that.

[pgir001]

I have posted before (In this thread I believe) where I had always felt the Dragonborn is to play a pivotal role in the future of Skyrim beyond the game. One of the main reasons I would personally decide to join the Stomcloaks, is to gain independence from the Empire. However, in my personal vision of Skyrim's future, Ulfric is not the High King. I've heard some of the replies about TES history showing the players as heroes who simply disappear. But that is history as told from the subsequent installments. Meaning the disappearance of the LDB will be told in TES VI, not TES V. But also from TES VI, other TES V history cannot be told either. Such as who became High King. Whether or not Titus Mede II survives, whether or not the Dark Brotherhood survives (Though a new Listener can appear at any time and give rebirth to the guild) etc etc. So it could be LDB as much as it is Elesif or Ulfric as High King, but it will not be told in TES VI. I don't think any Jarl would object to the LDB's claim to the title of High King at the Moot, since the LDB's bloodline could be traced either back to the same origin's as Talos' himself. Not to mention LDB's accomplishments. Singlehandedly putting an end to the war. Having united all factions in Skyrim under one banner, The LDB has the potential to assemble the greatest military force in the history of Tamriel. On the surface, LDB leads the Companions, The College, is a Thane in each hold, has achieved serious influence with the Dawnguard, The Blades (Once Delphine is put in her place) THen below the surface, having access to The Dark Brotherhood, Strong ties to Volkihar, The TG etc. Of course Bend Will with an army of Dragons doesn't hurt either.......Probably be a nice touch to "drop in" at the moot on Odahviing (Or any dragon really) with a number of dragons circling overhead as a nice show of force.

[Padre86]

 

The information wasn't useful because it was outdated by the time Ulfric divulged it.

 

Not saying you're wrong, but where was this stated?

This is common knowledge, both in the lore outside of the game and in the game itself. From Ulfric's Wikia page (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ulfric_Stormcloak):

 

He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City in Cyrodiil, even though it had fallen before any information could be gained.

Also, I think perhaps you're confusing "aiding" the enemy with simply succumbing to torture.

 

I'm not. Whether someone provides me information I use to succeed in doing something because I bribed them, tortured them, or simply observed them; they helped me. "Help" is synonymous with "aid" so he aided them. Unwillingly, but he did.

How much he helped here would be speculative and pretty much irrelevant so I would need to see where it says the information he gave was useless and there can be no source that says otherwise in order for that to stand.

Well, we've already established that the information that was tortured out of Ulfric wasn't actually useful intelligence. Secondly, while freely giving help and information to the enemy and being coerced into giving information to the enemy can be thought of as "aiding" the enemy in the semantic sense, there is definitely a qualitative difference between the two. If you can't appreciate that difference, I'll leave it at that since the horse is well dead at this point.

The Talos issue is minor, but the it is representative of a much bigger issue (whether the Thalmor should be allowed to impose themselves so freely on the Empire and its citizens).

The bigger issue here is actually two formidable forces making themselves weaker instead of building up strength and or preparing for round 2. If Ulfric was so big picture and so good at being underhanded with subterfuge and the like he would know this already.

He could have proposed this if he wanted. "We need to be making preparations. There's no way the Thalmor will let this peace stand. They will find some excuse to bring war back to our doorstep and we need to be ready or better, be ready before them and bring war to their doorstep!"

But there was a huge problem with that for him, his chance to be High King would have likely never came or taken longer than he would have liked. People good at that subtle stuff have to have patience as subtle tends to take longer to yield a result (success or failure) than blatant.

How do you know Ulfric isn't already aware of the longterm threat posed by the Thalmor? Given that he fought in the Great War and was tortured by the Thalmor, he likely appreciates the severity of their threat more than most. And what the hell could he have suggested to High King Toryg or the Empire? The Empire, and its puppets, had made peace with Thalmor and had signed the White Gold Concordat. No doubt the Empire, while perhaps lazy and reactive at times, is well aware of the inevitable 2nd conflict and was/is preparing for it even during the Civil War in Skyrim.

The reason Ulfric and his followers want independence from the Empire has nothing to do with avoiding war with the Thalmor or weakening the Empire so that it can fall. They want independence because they want the Nords to be able to make their own decisions and fight the Thalmor on their own terms (perhaps in coordination with Hammerfell, Cyrodil, Morrowind). They don't want to be party to demeaning treaties which allow the Thalmor to freely enforce their decrees throughout Imperial lands. The issue of the Thalmor being able to enforce their decrees and the potential for a 2nd Great War are one in the same. The Thalmor, though defeated, got a decisive diplomatic victory over the Empire by getting such favorable terms out of the White Gold Concordat, and they will use that victory, as they are in Skyrim, to gain intelligence, improve their position and create anarchy among the Empire and its allies. Ulfric doesn't want to be party to that treaty and doesn't want Thalmor agents in Skyrim at all....a fairly reasonable goal, given his and many Nords' experiences from the Great War.

And lest you forget, which you and many of your like-minded friends tend to, the Empire abandoned Hammerfell to face the Thalmor onslaught by itself. Before the Great War even began, they barely lifted a finger to help the Dunmer during the eruption of Red Mountain and the Argonian Invasion of Morrowind. In the years leading up to, and during the Great War itself, the Empire has done a piss-poor job of safeguarding the welfare of its citizens and constituent provinces. Ulfric and many Nords know this and they have no desire to be treated like expendable pawns in the Empire's grand game for survival.

Ulfric has his personal ambitions to be sure, but for you to say that there are no altruistic intentions behind the Stormcloak rebellion is simply ignoring what has been going on in the Tamriel as of late.

I'm not sure how you can claim that life for Talos worshipers was easier prior the civil war.

You aren't sure why I would think it would be easier to explain disappearances/murders during a time of civil war than during a time without one?

Okay.

Well, it would make sense that there are more murders and disappearances during a time of armed conflict versus a time of peace. But as for the abductions and murders in Skyim by the Thalmor themselves, again what proof do you have that this was not happening prior to the Civil War?

Do you have sources for this?

Nope.

All right then. It might be best for you to drop this point then.

And besides, if Talos worship wasn't an issue do you really think the Thalmor wouldn't find some other reason or grievance as justification for imposing their justicars and patrols on Skyrim and the other provinces?

For all we know, the Thalmor might have been scratching their heads trying to figure out how to cause this level of chaos in Skyrim and then Ulfric handed it to them and or gave them the idea during his capture and then they realized it would be more of a benefit to them if he "escaped" than if they kept him captive.

I guess we'll never know for sure if they wouldn't have found another excuse, but we definitely know one thing for sure. Thanks to Ulfric, they didn't have to. )

A civil war in Skyrim does play into Thalmor ambitions, no one will deny that. But let's not pretend that this was the Thalmor's only avenue for trying to destabilize and weaken the Empire. It's not like they were basing all their plans on the hope that disgruntled Nord would return to Skyrim and start a civil war. If Skyrim stayed at peace, the Thalmor would have no doubt looked to other avenues.

Disagree vehemently with the notion that Ulfric wants to promote unrest.

Okay, I worded/grammared that one wrong. What I meant to say was that Ulfric does NOT want unrest. He wants the crown and he doesn't care if he causes unrest in order to get it.

So he doesn't want unrest but if that's what needs to happen to get control of Skyrim then meh.

The Thalmor want unrest so they let a pawn advance in order to get an Empire to respond. Ulfric is a piece on the board that is useful but he isn't important to the Thalmor so he is a pawn. A pawn depending on where it lands can create a situation where it must be taken but that doesn't make the reacting piece/side a pawn.

You're confusing predicting the moves of your enemy and thus using that knowledge to entice them. When I fish, my bait is the pawn. The fish will bite (on a good day anyway, lol) but the fish isn't my pawn. The fish is the prize/goal. Ulfric isn't their goal, a weak Empire is and he helps advance that goal just like the bait helps me get my goal of the fish and yes, the fish doing what it is supposed to do helps me towards the goal of catching it, but we are not equally at fault or to blame.

Yeah, that's how revolutions normally work. Armed uprisings and revolts are required to overthrow a ruling government. Ulfric is no doubt willing to start war and spill blood to accomplish his goals (as is the Empire willing to do the same to preserve the status quo). But that doesn't necessarily make Ulfric (or the Emperor) warmongers who want rampant chaos and destruction and pillaging. Ulfric has an end goal: a unified Nordic kingdom.

As for Ulfric being used by the Thalmor as "bait" to attain the goal of a weakend Empire, like I said earlier I agree but it's a 2-way street. The only reason Ulfric serves a useful purpose as bait is if the Empire takes the bait. So the Empire is playing into Thalmor ambitions just as much as Ulfric is, in that sense.

He wants to be High King for sure

 

 

That's all and since you made it clear this is his first priority (as have others in the game (including some of his own supporters)) this means that his primary goal will be what primarily influences his actions.

Ulfric wants to rule. No doubt that goal influences his actions, just like the Emperor's desire to rule influences his, and the Thalmor's desire to dominate Tamriel influences their actions. Not sure what you're getting at here. Ulfric's goal of ruling also coincides with a free, Nordic-ruled Skyrim, which is not what the Thalmor want.

They don't want an independent, Nordic kingdom, free of the constraints of the White Gold Concordat;

 

This is like saying they actually care who wins in the civil war and they don't. If anything, the Stormcloaks winning and separating from The Empire would leave both broken and bloody.

The Empire wins, there's still losses but they still have each other as a unified force... The Stormcloaks win, same losses only now neither have the other for any kind of military support.

If I'm Thalmor, I definitely prefer the Stormcloaks to win. I mean it would be most ideal for the war to rage on for awhile before either is able to claim victory but once the outcome happens it is definitely better for the Stormcloaks to win.

Sorry, but you're really talking out of your butt here. You really think the Thalmor don't care who wins the Civil War? You think they want to see an independent Nordic Kingdom?

1) The Empire only committed a portion of its forces to the Civil War in Skyrim....many of its legions are still to the south anticipating another Thalmor attack. The Empire, and Skyrim, may be bloody following the Civil War, but they are by no means broken.

2) While many Nords were divided on the issue of the Stormcloak cause and Skyrim's independence, almost all of them have a common hatred for the Thalmor and their world ambitions. The Nords are still very much a threat to Thalmor ambitions, perhaps more so following a Stormcloak victory due to the fact that they are no longer a party to the White Gold Concordat.

3) If I were a Thalmor ruler, I would want to see the Empire get embroiled in side-conflicts (like Syrim's Civil War) but I wouldn't want to see any clear victors. An Imperial victory means that the Empire maintains a strong and crucial source of manpower and resources. A Stormcloak victory means that there is yet another free, and openly hostile, kingdom that is free from my treaties and likely has a degraded spy network (no more Thalmor Justicars freely patrolling Skyrim). This is very similar to Pakistan's foreign policy with Afghanistan. The Paki's have an incentive to fight the Taliban to keep them off balance, but at the same time, they don't want to eliminate them all together and allow Afghanistan to become a strong, centralized power (the Paki's have an eternal fear of having 2 strong powers on either side of them, since they already have to contend with India to their east).

4) As others on this thread have pointed out, the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric states very explicitly that a Stormcloak victory is to be avoided, as is an imperial victory.

Do we really need to argue this point anymore, or can we agree that it is settled?

Again source for this? Where is this notion that Ulfric has no foresight or political savy coming from?

 

 

I didn't know what to type here. I played the civil war questline many times as an Imperial and as a Stormcloak and there is plenty of dialogue that support this notion. I think you may have gotten the wrong copy of Skyrim if you didn't realize the ambition, blunt, and direct approach of Ulfric.

This thing borders on being part of a version of the Red Oni vs. Blue Oni Trope. The Empire (Blue Oni) being political and "rational" in their mindset vs. The Stormcloaks (Red Oni) being passionate and quick to action. Sure the actual colors are reversed but still.

No one is denying Ulfric's ambitions and desire for power. But again, what is your source for this claim that he lacks any strategic foresight and cunning? I saw plenty of examples of that from him and other Jarls. The Nords have a tendency to settle matters in honorable confrontations and battles, but that doesn't preclude them from political ploys and strategic play.

 

According to you, Ulfric is blunt and direct and too shortsighted to see the true threats and intents of the Thalmor. Yet somehow this man started an organized and coordinated rebellion out of nothing, won the allegiance of half the Holds and Jarls through political cunning and/or persuasion and the other half through military prowess.

 

 

You asked me for sources but uh, what supports this political wizard version of Ulfric you speak of?

Ulfric is clearly meant to be the embodiment of a "True Nord" and Nords typically value being direct and blunt. It's even in their typical preference of combat style which is one of the reasons they prefer hand held weapons to magic.

Ulfric was able to get half the people on his side for 3 reasons, none of which have anything to do with him being some kind of political mastermind:

1.) The issue of worshiping Talos. While for him, this is only a means to "justifiably" make an attempt for the crown, for many Nords this is the only issue. This is why some of them clearly state that they don't trust Ulfric and or know he is not the answer, but fight on his side anyway.

2.) He is very charismatic. In addition to being a Nord, through and true, he also speaks in a way that empassions and motivates people and that goes a long way in addition to his strenght and proof of being a strong warrior.

You yourself do a good job of demonstrating how there is more to Ulfric than simple blunt/direct confrontation. He is using the Talos issue as rallying cry of sorts, a very smart move on his part. And he is very charismatic and good at appealing to people's passions and motivations. These are all the trademarks of a leader who knows there is more to ruling than just physical coercion and intimidation.

Thanks for proving my point!

Once Ulfric's revolt succeeds and Skyrim becomes independent, there is absolutely no way anyone can consider him a Thalmor pawn.

 

 

I actually explained why his victory would actually better suit the Thalmor than an Empire victory.

You didn't do a very good job as the argument holds very little if any water.

You're making an hefty assumption on what Ulfric might have done in the absence of Imperial rule.

 

I find it humorous that despite there being nothing that clearly even suggests the idea of a note being a tactic, that you felt it was enough of a possibility to mention that it could be, Ulfric is mentioned as ambitious and/or that his intentions are clearly not pure by several people (some being on his side mind you) and that's not enough to say what he would do, lol. It's a "hefty assumption" to you. Okay.

The note was vague, and Bethesda left it that way for a reason. The Thalmor refer to Ulfric as an "asset", but it is not clear at all in what manner they truly consider him an asset. There is no evidence to suggest that Ulfric is a mole or deliberately working to accomplish strategic objectives on behalf of the Thalmor, so we can make some educated assumptions about the note, but that's all they are: assumptions. Likewise the possibility of the note being a fake is also an assumption, and not very well supported in game, but certainly in keeping with the spirit of Tamriel's political intrigue and subterfuge.

Your assumption is going into the black abyss of "anyone's guess." It's anyone's guess what Ulfric might have done in the absence of Imperial rule, especially given all the unknowns that would accompany such a scenario. There is absolutely nothing for us to latch onto to have a meaningful discussion on that issue, so again, I see no point in pursuing it further.

Their actions are exactly what the Thalmor want. In that sense, there are numerous "pawns" serving Thalmor interests, not just Ulfric.

 

 

Again, the fish taking my bait is exactly what I want but it isn't my pawn. The bait is. I'm actively using the bait to get what I want. The fish is the prize. Ulfric = bait/pawn. Weakend Empire and Skyrim = Prize.

I've already addressed this. The fish has to take the bait in order for the bait to serve a purpose. Both parties (the Empire and Ulfric) play an active role in this.

General Tullius even acknowledges in game that the real fight is with the Thalmor and this civil war in Skyrim is a distraction.

 

 

This fact is against, not in support of, your argument(s) The Empire is the one that can see what is going on. To support your argument(s) you need a quote from Ulfric saying that the real fight is with the Thalmor and that the Civil War is a distraction.

Oh, but of course you meant in support of the idea that the Empire is just as much a pawn as Ulfric in which case still doesn't support this. If I know it is a trap to go in an save my friend's (or insert any desired important loved one here) life and know that is what my enemies want, I am not a pawn nor am I just as much the reason for what happens as my enemy is. What am I supposed to do? Not save them?

But yes, this quote damaged your argument regarding Ulfric knowing what is going on here. To repair it, find a quote that says the same thing but is coming from Ulfric. Galmar is so clueless about what is happening that when Tullius goes to explain it to him, he doesn't even know what Tulius is talking about. Galmar being the closest to Ulfric is aware of his ambitions as Ulfric has discussed this with him... but not about the civil war being good for the Thalmor? But find his quotes about the war helping the Thalmor and that won't matter.

Didn't damage my point at all. The Empire knows the Thalmor pose a threat. Most Nords, including Ulfric, know the Thalmor pose a threat. In that regard, I think you perhaps overestimate how much an advantage the Thalmor truly derive from the Civil strife in Skyrim....neither side of the conflict is blind to Thalmor ambitions and how such a conflict might play into their hands. Both sides, for that reason, have an strong desire to finish the conflict quickly and with minimal bloodshed.

What this does prove is that the Empire, and the Stormcloaks, despite being aware of how such a civil war might inadvertently aid Thalmor ambitions, have other goals to pursue rather than focus solely on the Thalmor threat. And let's be honest, there is absolutely nothing in game to suggest that the civil war will be the straw the broke the camel's back and guarantee a Thalmor victory in a 2nd Great War. In fact, an outright victory by either side will likely be a huge hindrance to their long term plans as already explained.

 

See my response in red.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Padre86

[monganfinn]

I know it is a wide spread theory and I know that even ingame many in both factions say it, but isn´t proof either as obviously those aren´t all knowing or wihtout bias either.

 

If only those who opposed him were saying it saying this isn't proof would have a bit more validity, but since there are those in support of the Stormcloak cause who also say it...

If I remember correctly its Dengeir who claims that Ulfric is just after the throne, right? Dengeir, the one who doesn´t even trust his own friends. And even if there are others and if many of them are from the cloaks ... how many of them truly know Uflric as more but a passing accaintance? If I question the people in your street about you, how much of what they tell me will be true and how much made up or because of hearsay?

If you hear that your new neighbour is a asshole from lots of people you don´t just blindly believe them but talk to the guy himself!

 

You do not have any proof to support this, neither do the cloaks and imps saying it. It is NOTHING but an opinion! and to base the theory that he would have rebelled against any king under any circumstance on such a baseless opinion is IMO not something you should debate with as there can never be arguments for or against it, because it is just an opinion.

 

: Either you're saying Ulfric is too dumb, shortsighted, and or impatient to figure out other ways to accomplish the goal of removing Thalmor influence... or this was really about obtaining the crown.

Perhaps he is too dumb? Who knows? But, with our limited knowledge of the in universe logistics, politics etc, I dare you come up with a method to oust the Thalmor by the year 202 4E from Skyrim that doesn´t involve civil war!

:

"He was made to believe information obtained during his interrogation was crucial in the capture of the Imperial City (the city had in fact fallen before he had broken),"

 

Okay, the information obtained after breaking him was useless so I was definitely wrong about that aspect... however, apparently he was still an asset to them which was really the point:

 

"...After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset..."

No, the point was that you claimed he aided in the fall of White Gold, ...

:

How much he helped here would be speculative and pretty much irrelevant so I would need to see where it says the information he gave was useless and there can be no source that says otherwise in order for that to stand.

... no ones arguing that causing the CW doesn´t further Dominion interests. But, so does the Empire, as a war cannot be waged by Ulfric alone. A war needs two factions. The Empire too could have always told Ulfric and Skyrim to walk their own path and averted the war. Unlikely? Yes, because it acts like an empire acts. The Empire doesnt fight to gain troops against the Dominion but to keep its most important province in the fold. If they truly just wanted to be as strong as possible against the Dominion they should have spared lots of lives and made a secret treaty against the Dominion with Uflric, or whoever becomes High King. But that is just my opinion.

 

pawn=/=bait, to address your fishing metaphor, IMO a pawn is a person who is manipulated, through bait if you want to, to achieve a goal.

Goal=weakening of all enemies

Pawn1=Redguards - Bait1=south of Hammerfell

Pawn2=Ulfric - Bait2=Talos

Pawn3=Empire - Bait3=rebellionin Skyrim

 

Ulfric is not this political savvy guy. He's a general. The Warrior Leader, but he's not an idiot. It's due to his ambition and or shortsightedness (maybe even arrogance as it isn't even implied that he knows the Thalmor LET him escape) that he is unable to see how he is actually being used.

 

...her competence, or lack thereof, has no bearing on Ulfric's

I just gave you several quotes from his dialogue that show he is a good politician, no matter if he is lying or not, I showed you examples where he managed to come over quite well IMO:

Elisif after the taking of Solitude

High King mention in the victory speech

the political agend he had when killing Torygg

pulling a rebellion out of his arse

Is he political savvy? Yes, he is, otherwise he wouldn´t mind the pride of the Jarls and simply declare himself high King. Otherwise he´d ignore the political boon leaving Elisif as Jarl gives him. In the whole game, to me at least he appears to be the best politician, which is why I compared him to Tullius and Elisif, as I needed some kind of standard to compare him to. After all I am sure you agree, we cannot compare him to a RL politician?!

Balgruuf: instead of making the war end quickly he is the typical fence sitter, which causes the war to drag on end at the end he may just make the false decision for his city if the LDB joins the cloaks.

Igmund: the genius promised Ulfric something he couldn´t promise and caused the whole debacle in the first place! Why does everyone say Uflric is thecause of the Markath incident - this is the guy who caused it all!

Igdrod: is so in touch with her people that they pretty much all talk down on her and has so little respect from her people that her own huscarl is reminding people to respect her yet is at the same time trying to overthrow her.

Korir: hates the greatest asset of his city, not without cause but still. Doesnt have much respect from the other Jarls either.

Elisif: Need I say something?

Siddgeir: a good businessman. If corruption falls under business savvyness.

Laila: errr Maven, nough said.

Skald: paranoid, old manchild

Tullius: the face of the empire in Skyrim - incapable of routing a rebellion while having overwhelming numbers, shows clear disdain for the dominant culture of the land, cant convince Balgruuf to join him until Ulfric gets trigger happy, cant get the Silver Bloods nor the Forsworn under control, fails to work well with the stubborn Jarls of Skyrim in general as can be glimpsed from his "stubborn Nords, you and your damn Jarls"

Titus Mede: wasn´t political savvy enough to understand he would have quite a bit of resistence against the Concordat which sells away half a province and outlaws worship of Talos, nor does he have control over the Elder Council which goes so far to assassinate him.

 

Is he arrogant? IMO he is a doubt riddled warrior on a guilt trip, some arrogance is there but then again everyone has some.

"I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn."

"Is any man ever ready to give the order that will mean the deaths of many."

"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's [sic] names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

The Throne of Ysgramor! The throne of my father... I only hope I can prove worthy of the honor.

"Skyrim might not belong to me, but I belong to Skyrim!"

 

How should he know that he was released and didn´t escape? No one but the Thalmor know, Tullius doesn´t know that either. Tullius only states that the civil war serves Thalmor interests. When he tells Ulfric as much, Ulfric isn´t surprised or anything, nor is Galmar (who just doesn´t understand who Tullius meant by "they"), afterwards Ulfric goes on and says how he knows that the Dominion is the true threat.

 

: logically, it would favor the Thalmor more if the Stormcloaks won than if the Empire was victorious, all things being equal.

That´s your logic, might be right, but it´s not based on anything in the game and is thus speculation as we dont know what the Thalmor want! Perhaps a success of the cloak rebellion damages their propaganda back home, perhaps it incites revolts in Elsweyr, Valenwood. Perhaps they dont have the ressources to undermine several governments and would have liked to place their spies in a single government - WE DONT KNOW WHAT THE THALMOR THINK AND OUR "LOGIC" DOESNT APPLY!!

 

: He still is very much good for the Thalmor and doesn't see that. He is why they didn't need to come up with another way to distract the Empire.

Ulfric, was their plan and he obviously doesn't know that.

I guess this is the crux of your opinion on the matter?

Yes he is being manipulated, and yes starting the civil war and fighting it helps the Thalmor. Winning it? What do the Thalmor themselves have to say on this: "Thalmor Dossier: A Stormcloak victory is to be avoided" - we dont know anything beyond that. Anything further is unfounded and pure speculation.

As such, it can be said that the moment he actually wins the civil war, the help to the Thalmor ends and he might from then on make up for the previous help he gave them.

The problem is we don´t know enough about the Thalmor endgame to make assumptions: a popular theory was that they wish to weaken Talos by ending his worship, which probably isn´t the case and isn´t even possible, BUT if it would have been the case a Stormcloak victory would have been a disaster for the Thalmor.

 

Well, what does it matter if he knows he is being manipulated? Tullius clearly knows as he said it himself that the war furthers Thalmor interest, yet Tullius still participates in the war. Which is even worse than Ulfric, if he truly is ignorant of the matter, as he runs into the doom with open eyes.

[monganfinn]

Padre86: Well, it would make sense that there are more murders and disappearances during a time of armed conflict versus a time of peace. But as for the abductions and murders in Skyim by the Thalmor themselves, again what proof do you have that this was not happening prior to the Civil War?

IMO the persecution of Talos worshippers began with the Markath Incident: we can gleam from several dialogues that the Thalmor only were allowed to "purge" Skyrim after Ulfric made a fuss over Talos worship. The Markath Incident was the point at which the Empire was threatened by the Dominion to not renegade on the WGC, it would make sense that the Thalmor patrolls began with it. We do know that the persecution began before the Civil War because its one of the many reasons people join the Cloaks and yet none of them blame Uflric for this happening, nor is it stated outright that the Thalmor began "purging" the land due to Ulfric´s rebellion.

 

: A civil war in Skyrim does play into Thalmor ambitions, no one will deny that. But let's not pretend that this was the Thalmor's only avenue for trying to destabilize and weaken the Empire. It's not like they were basing all their plans on the hope that disgruntled Nord would return to Skyrim and start a civil war. If Skyrim stayed at peace, the Thalmor would have no doubt looked to other avenues.

IMO simply finding, or planting a random Talos worshipper would be enough to force the Empire to allow the Thalmor to persecute Talos worshippers in Skyrim, which in turn quickly would have destabilized the province, and finally causing unrest as people tend to react badly to their family being taken away. Actually the Thalmor do a piss poor job at doing so, I mean is it so hard to buy Talos amulets en masse, reverse pickpocket them into some random citizens pocket and then arrest them??

TheObstinateNoviceSmith

Oh, but of course you meant in support of the idea that the Empire is just as much a pawn as Ulfric in which case still doesn't support this. If I know it is a trap to go in an save my friend's (or insert any desired important loved one here) life and know that is what my enemies want, I am not a pawn nor am I just as much the reason for what happens as my enemy is. What am I supposed to do? Not save them?

Well, yes, under these circumstances logic would tell you not to save them. After all saving them causes the death of two people, whereas leaving them to die would kill just one person. Still going out to save them just makes you an idiot. And if your death furthers another goal of your enemy down the line aka not you walking into the trap itself, by walking into the trap, acting as they wanted you to, you become a pawn in their scheme.

Perhaps you are willing to take the risk and rather die while doing the right think than watching your friend die doing nothing? But you see that last point only applies to Ulfric, as Skyrim doesn´t need saving, its Cyrodiil that needs saving, and the Empire is in Skyrim not to save Skyrim but to save itself.

[khyloskye]

I have posted before (In this thread I believe) where I had always felt the Dragonborn is to play a pivotal role in the future of Skyrim beyond the game. One of the main reasons I would personally decide to join the Stomcloaks, is to gain independence from the Empire. However, in my personal vision of Skyrim's future, Ulfric is not the High King. I've heard some of the replies about TES history showing the players as heroes who simply disappear. But that is history as told from the subsequent installments. Meaning the disappearance of the LDB will be told in TES VI, not TES V. But also from TES VI, other TES V history cannot be told either. Such as who became High King. Whether or not Titus Mede II survives, whether or not the Dark Brotherhood survives (Though a new Listener can appear at any time and give rebirth to the guild) etc etc. So it could be LDB as much as it is Elesif or Ulfric as High King, but it will not be told in TES VI. I don't think any Jarl would object to the LDB's claim to the title of High King at the Moot, since the LDB's bloodline could be traced either back to the same origin's as Talos' himself.

 

Not to mention LDB's accomplishments. Singlehandedly putting an end to the war. Having united all factions in Skyrim under one banner, The LDB has the potential to assemble the greatest military force in the history of Tamriel. On the surface, LDB leads the Companions, The College, is a Thane in each hold, has achieved serious influence with the Dawnguard, The Blades (Once Delphine is put in her place) THen below the surface, having access to The Dark Brotherhood, Strong ties to Volkihar, The TG etc. Of course Bend Will with an army of Dragons doesn't hurt either.......Probably be a nice touch to "drop in" at the moot on Odahviing (Or any dragon really) with a number of dragons circling overhead as a nice show of force.

 

I think you're right-on with your first point. The narrative has to serve the overall game design to a certain degree. And that game design lends itself not so much as each game being a "chapter" in the TES novel, but rather an independent story within the history of Tamriel itself. Realistically, Bethesda has to have the protagonist(you) fade out after each game installment for the simple reason that "you" is not one, but many. While the core storyline choices you experience do not waver from player to player, the way that storyline is engaged and interpreted certainly is. Such is the nature of story-driven RPG's in which the PC plays the part of world-hero...making that hero adhere to a strict personal narrative may solve some questions of lore, but it's rather lousy game-design.

 

You're second point I think is off, somewhat because of what I've just written. I really don't think that the LDB, in terms of the canon of the lore, is supposed to be master of all possible factions/cities/armies/etc. of Skyrim simply because they all are available. Giving the PC choices on what guild to join or what city to Thane is part of the game design and not meant to be taken like the LDB does all of those at the same time. For instance, it is rather impractical and illogical for a PC to be both Leader of the Companions and Archmage of the College of Winterhold at the same time. They are almost complete opposites in terms of PC character development and skills, and a realistic playthrough of the game probably shouldn't include both of those at the same time. Of course players do that, simply because they want to experience everything there is to be had on Skyrim. And there's nothing mechanically wrong with that, Skyrim has a great storyline after all. But realistically, in the setting of the game, it would be quite silly for the LDB to, say, be Thane of all 9 Holds simultaneously. That's just a choice the game offers you for the sake of fun, it's not meant to be taken as historical fact.

 

By contrast, it's no coincidence that the only "factions" that you can only choose one side on are central to the main storyline. There's a reason you have to choose Stormcloaks or Imperials, Dawnguard or Volkihar, and Blades or Greybeards. Otherwise the story wouldn't make sense. Of these, only the last choice could be interpreted in a way in which you could realistically side with both...which is the entire premise of the Parthunaax Dilemma mod. I mean, that dragon isn't really evil, he's trying to help you stop Alduin, so it makes sense you shouldn't have to kill him to stay on good terms with the Blades. But it doesn't matter one iota whether or not you are a thief, wizard, warrior, assassin, or bard to the main storyline. Same with which city you are Thane of, or even if which god you worship. Those choices not relevant to the main storyline are there simply to give the PC a choice on how he or she wants to play the game and engage the story.

Edited April 14, 2016 by khyloskye

[TheObstinateNoviceSmith]

"...This is common knowledge, both in the lore outside of the game and in the game itself. From Ulfric's Wikia page (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ulfric_Stormcloak):..."

I asked because I didn't know. The other person already addressed this and I already admitted to being wrong about this.

If you can't appreciate that difference, I'll leave it at that since the horse is well dead at this point.

This isn't about how I see it, it is about how the enemy sees it and to the enemy, and strategically, there is no difference.

If all they have to do is keep using a certain kind of torture and or threats to obtain information from someone, that person is still an asset to them because they are obtaining information from it.

I have to say though, it is funny that you accept part of the note as absolute truth but not the rest. That's awfully convenient, lol.

How do you know Ulfric isn't already aware of the longterm threat posed by the Thalmor?

Because, he doesn't see that what he's doing helps the Thalmor. They knew he would be a bigger asset to them free rather than as a prisoner and they released him. He makes no mention to anyone of being aware of this.

I mean, for all we know, you guys are right and he is all about subterfuge and he is intentionally helping the Thalmor as the note implies. Though intentionally or not, his civil war benefits the Thalmor more than it benefits anyone else right now.

All right then. It might be best for you to drop this point then.

You mean like I already did? You keep falling behind. This is the second time you addressed the already addressed/resolved.

But let's not pretend that this was the Thalmor's only avenue for trying to destabilize and weaken the Empire. It's not like they were basing all their plans on the hope that disgruntled Nord would return to Skyrim and start a civil war. If Skyrim stayed at peace, the Thalmor would have no doubt looked to other avenues.

Ulfric was their plan. They had him and then realized it would be to their best interest to release him. We could speculate as to what they would have done but we have no sources so take your own advice on that situation and drop it and focus on what we do know for sure.

They didn't have to come up with another way. Ulfric was that way and it's working out great for them.

Yeah, that's how revolutions normally work. Armed uprisings and revolts are required to overthrow a ruling government. Ulfric is no doubt willing to start war and spill blood to accomplish his goals (as is the Empire willing to do the same to preserve the status quo). But that doesn't necessarily make Ulfric (or the Emperor) warmongers who want rampant chaos and destruction and pillaging.

Not sure what this is supposed to be countering. I clearly stated he doesn't want unrest and you basically responded with he doesn't want unrest.

As for Ulfric being used by the Thalmor as "bait" to attain the goal of a weakend Empire, like I said earlier I agree but it's a 2-way street. The only reason Ulfric serves a useful purpose as bait is if the Empire takes the bait.

The only way the killer gets what they want is if the police attempts to save the hostages. Yeah, both parties play a part but clearly one is more responsible and more a pawn than the other.

They released Ulfric so he would do what he did... so that the Empire would do what it is supposed to do. You don't blame the firefighters for trying to put out a fire even if that whole thing is a trap.

I send an arsonist to burn someone's house so that the person will rush inside to save their family, even though all are doing what I expect/want them to do, the only pawn is the arsonist because I set him in motion.

Not sure what you're getting at here.

Then don't worry about it.

Sorry, but you're really talking out of your butt here. You really think the Thalmor don't care who wins the Civil War? You think they want to see an independent Nordic Kingdom?

Let me explain this even clearer. The most desirable outcome for the Thalmor is for there to be no outcome. It would be the most ideal if the two sides continue to war all the way until the Thalmor decide to attack again. That is what would be best for their goal and they will do what they can to make sure that happens.

However, if there is to be a victor, it would be better if the Stormcloaks won for the obvious reason that I will explain again (assuming same reduction of troop strength regardless as to who wins):

Empire Victory - Skyrim and her forces still support the Empire and still will have support of the Empire's forces.

Stormcloak Victory - Neither Skyrim nor the Empire will have the other to rely on. United we stand, divided we fall. Divide and conquer (I cannot spell this word to save my life, lol. I keep wanting to put another "o" in there for some reason). If the Stormcloaks win, the Empire divides and it makes them easier to conquer as well as Skyrim.

As others on this thread have pointed out, the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric states very explicitly that a Stormcloak victory is to be avoided, as is an imperial victory.

Yes, needlessly so since I already had this aspect covered.

Hopefully you and others will not miss it this go around and won't miss it here again:

If I'm Thalmor, I definitely prefer the Stormcloaks to win. I mean it would be most ideal for the war to rage on for awhile before either is able to claim victory but once the outcome happens it is definitely better for the Stormcloaks to win.

No one is denying Ulfric's ambitions and desire for power. But again, what is your source for this claim that he lacks any strategic foresight and cunning?

I explained why and it involved something quite key but we'll agree to disagree here as well. Consider it dropped on my end which is why I am not making an argument here.

You didn't do a very good job as the argument holds very little if any water.

History would disagree with you since divide and conquer is a tried and true tactic still used, not just militaristic, but in various other situations as well.

Empire win - Still together.

Stormcloaks win - Not together.

Try not to mistake a simple explanation for a bad one.

The note was vague, and Bethesda left it that way for a reason

I know the note called him an asset and not the Empire. That alone is very clear. Another thing, I know it specifically says they released him intentionally and talked about how he has benefited them and that they were able to approach him.

I mean, the note isn't nearly as vague as you're making it sound and actually explains a great deal without guessing.

Certainly far less to guess about on that front, then to try and guess the note was a fake and or planted or whatever.

I've already addressed this. The fish has to take the bait in order for the bait to serve a purpose. Both parties (the Empire and Ulfric) play an active role in this.

Yes, they both do except Ulfric's active role is as the pawn/bait. Never said the Empire didn't have a role, I just said it was absurd to say they too were pawns. That makes little to no sense.

So please, move past the Empire having a role and move towards how merely having a role makes one a pawn. It doesn't, but that is what you should be trying to argue.

Not everyone with an active role in a play is the lead actor just because they're involved.

Didn't damage my point at all. The Empire knows the Thalmor pose a threat. Most Nords, including Ulfric, know the Thalmor pose a threat.

This wasn't about whether or not they see the Thalmor as a threat. Everyone knows they are a threat. This was about whether or not Ulfric realizes/knows that the civil war benefits the Thalmor. He makes no mention of this fact.

He makes no mention of knowing that the civil war is exactly what the Thalmor wanted.

Of course, if the note is to be believed, he intentionally doesn't mention this fact because he does know because this is actually his intent. I don't know so I won't argue that but I do know that he makes no reference to this fact while others do.

How much it helps them is irrelevant, it does help them. Period and it is in fact what they want. He never states this or even acknowledges.

If I remember correctly its Dengeir who claims that Ulfric is just after the throne, right? Dengeir, the one who doesn´t even trust his own friends.

Didn't even know about him. But, since I'm not going to go on a quote hunt or play through again just to find the quotes, I'll drop this and accept that you didn't hear any Stormcloak supporters speak about doubting Ulfric and or his intentions while I did.

And accept that even if you did hear this, you just dismiss it as them only being his acquaintance so there's no way that serves as proof enough for you.

Perhaps he is too dumb? Who knows? But, with our limited knowledge of the in universe logistics, politics etc, I dare you come up with a method to oust the Thalmor by the year 202 4E from Skyrim that doesn´t involve civil war!

I don't know. I also don't know how to build a bomb but that doesn't mean it can't be done. All I am saying is, with patience, there is often multiple ways to accomplish a goal. He didn't bother with any other way. I say that has to do with his own ambition, the note says it is because he is helping the Thalmor, and you say it is because he felt like there was no other way and or that this was the "best" way (I think) mind you what we see as the best way to do something often has to do with our true motivations so your point of view doesn't even automatically conflict with mine.

Say that 3 times fast, lol.

No, the point was that you claimed he aided in the fall of White Gold

No. I said what my point was. Now if you misunderstood and or if I didn't convey it accurately okay, but don't be jerk by trying to tell me what my point was after I state it more clearly. There's no need for that.

pawn=/=bait, to address your fishing metaphor, IMO a pawn is a person who is manipulated, through bait if you want to, to achieve a goal.

Not sure how your explanation is saying a pawn isn't bait. Bait is manipulated onto a hook and manipulated into the water for the purpose of luring fish to being caught.

Ulfric was literally manipulated and released into the wild to do what they wanted him to do. That's the very definition of bait... which makes him a pawn.

The Thalmor didn't directly manipulate the Empire, they manipulated the Empire through Ulfric therefore he is the pawn.

I just gave you several quotes from his dialogue that show he is a good politician, no matter if he is lying or not, I showed you examples where he managed to come over quite well IMO:

I know you did, but I addressed it. To be more clear, I didn't say you were wrong, I merely said that it is possible for anyone to be/do anything even if that isn't in their more dominant traits.

I say he doesn't see he is being manipulated because, while he possesses some great and strong traits that make him a great leader, he is shortsighted and subterfuge isn't his strong suit.

Then again, if the note is to be believed, he does in fact know and is doing what he is doing intentionally for the benefit of the Thalmor. Not saying I believe that, just saying it is more of a possibility than some of the points you and others have tried to make as some of them have less of a basis to them than this note.

How should he know that he was released and didn´t escape? No one but the Thalmor know, Tullius doesn´t know that either.

Why Tully was brought into that is beyond me. You're mixing points.

Tullius knows that the civil war is what the Thalmor wanted, as do others if I remember correctly, Ulfric seems not to realize this.

I spoke of Ulfric's arrogance because arrogance would allow someone to think they accomplished something that they didn't. Other traits/factors could as well but that's the one that typically is played upon.

I beat someone at chess (which would never happen because I suck at that game, lol) and take pride in it because no one else has beaten that person, arrogance would make it difficult for me to realize that the person let me win.

If I escape from a Thalmor prison, I might question how that was possible if I didn't believe in my own abilities.

That's all I was saying. No it isn't definitive proof of arrogance, but this is a discussion for fun I thought so I brought it up as a point.

I won't do so again and you have my apologies.

That´s your logic, might be right, but it´s not based on anything in the game and is thus speculation as we dont know what the Thalmor want!

We do know what they want. They want their opponents to be weaker. Divide and conqueor. Standard ancient and still widely used strategy.

WE DONT KNOW WHAT THE THALMOR THINK AND OUR "LOGIC" DOESNT APPLY!!

And calm down, lol. This is a game my friend and it won't change regardless as to our discussion. It's one thing for some light jabs here and there but no need for so many caps. I don't want any blood vessels bursting over this.

Yes he is being manipulated, and yes starting the civil war and fighting it helps the Thalmor

That's it. I'm done. This makes him a pawn and useful. An asset and that is all I have really been trying to say other than I think he doesn't see it while others seem to see it and I attribute this to arrogance, shortsightedness, and or lack of understanding of subterfuge.

The note disagrees, and so do you, but isn't disagreeing what makes this world a beautiful place? Well... when done civilly, lol.

Thalmor Dossier: A Stormcloak victory is to be avoided" - we dont know anything beyond that. Anything further is unfounded and pure speculation.

It could be seen as speculation, but unfounded, no. There's plenty of foundation from history to common military strategy to logic. (which you can say their logic is different from ours but I have yet to see them really think differently from us (I mean releasing Ulfric is exactly something we would do and have done in various situations) so...)

Well, what does it matter if he knows he is being manipulated? Tullius clearly knows as he said it himself that the war furthers Thalmor interest, yet Tullius still participates in the war. Which is even worse than Ulfric,

Nope. The person trying to rescue their loved one(s) despite knowing they are going into a trap is not worse than the person who was manipulated into starting the fire.

Well, yes, under these circumstances logic would tell you not to save them. After all saving them causes the death of two people, whereas leaving them to die would kill just one person. Still going out to save them just makes you an idiot. And if your death furthers another goal of your enemy down the line aka not you walking into the trap itself, by walking into the trap, acting as they wanted you to, you become a pawn in their scheme.

I won't argue this not because I can't but because your words are insulting to many people (and their families) who have died (and even those who happened to survive) trying to save the lives of others despite knowing the risks (even when the tragedy and or risks were deliberately caused by someone) and I won't engage in that my friend.

Believe those people died idiots if you'd like, that is your right and I am not saying you're wrong just saying I disagree and that it is insulting to no end... though likely unintentionally so.