Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[MidbossVyers]

A common reason why a Council member/minister might want the Emperor dead is not to usurp the Emperor but rather place a legitimate figurehead on the throne, so that they may manipulate this heir without taking any negative rep for usurpation.

[monganfinn]

The Mede Dynastie is IMO neither old enough nor well liked enough for that to be much of an issue. A puppet is IMO however safer for the mastermind, especially if no one knows he´s the one pulling the strings. On the other hand puppets are dangerous as they always might outgrow your control.

Either way this is hugely speculative, the exact reasons why Motierre wanted Titus Mede dead will probably forever be unknown to us.

 

My predictions is that after TES:Skyrim Titus Mede will be dead, either from old age or an assassination but the cause simply wont be mentioned. His death causes unrest and further destabilizes Cyrodiil, which in turn causes the remaining provinces to become independent.

 

This scenario nicely allows for every questline: Dark Brotherhood and Civil War to end as the player wants it too and avoids any IMO unrealistic developments like the Dominion to suddenly invade Skyrim or the Empire sending even more legions up north and invalidating the Civil War end of the game.

Edited April 23, 2016 by monganfinn

[Rethrain]

I don't know when we'll see the next TES, wouldn't be surprised if they change a few things around, I found out that one game's POV doesn't matter much in the next game's POV. I think I did read that there won't be one for some time...but then again, I remember being told (by devs through a certain npc) there was never going to be a TES online game so...

[Caerulean]

I heard it's going to come out next year. *shrug*

 

An NPC told you that there was never going to be an online game? o.O

[Rethrain]

Yup, M'aiq did in Morrowind. Though I suppose he IS a liar.

[Caerulean]

Uhm what exactly did he say? Can't seem to find the quote. o.O

[Rethrain]

"Multiplayer"

"M'Aiq does not know this word. You wish others to help you in your quest? Coward! If you must, search for the Argonian Im-Leet, or perhaps the big Nord, Rolf the Uber. They will certainly wish to join you."

 

The was a big thread at the time about it. He's being ironic. Don't scratch your head that much it isn't THAT important. :P

[Padre86]

Coming back to the original topic of this thread...

 

 

So ... Thalmor Justiciars were in Skyrim already before the outbreak of Ulfric´s rebellion. Debunking the argument that Ulfric´s rebellion called the Thalmor into Skyrim. It might have been the Markarth Incident, but not the Stormcloak rebellion.

 

As to why I believe this book to be absolutely correct while I mistrust others? I dont think the Redguards are dumb enough to believe the Nords wouldnt notice the contradiction of the book against their own memories to when the Thalmor arrived in Skyrim.

 

All in agreement?

 

Yes! Thank you for pointing that out. I had recalled reading/hearing that the Thalmor presence in Skyrim pre-dated Ulfric's rebellion, but I had forgotten the source. And similarly, the Thalmor presence was not just a facade designed to incite the flames of civil war...there were Justicar patrols and torture center (think GITMO but in Skyrim) where Nords were being taken to for interrogation and silencing....anyone recall the rescue mission for the family member out of Whiterun (was it the Battleborns or the other family, I forget).

 

As for that whole back and forth on war crimes, sacking a city was a common occurrence in medieval times (and in Skyrim's lore)....some shops got ransacked and torched, a few commoners were wacked, some women abused...not making light of any of that, but just saying it happened quite frequently in real life antiquity and Skyrim's lore. The only real times things were considered outrageous and out of the norm was when everyone got the sword, including nobility and those who could be ransomed. So to accuse Ulfric of war crimes because of a little destruction and pillaging after the retaking of Markarth is not in "war-crime" territory by Skyrim's standards.

 

Furthermore, the history book which discusses these "war crimes" was written by an Imperial historian who favored the reachmen and Imperial rule and disliked Nordic nationalism, so there may be a bit of bias there (which is not unheard of for the many books found in the Elder Scrolls lore). And there are certainly inhabitants of Markarth (found in game) who were no doubt old enough to have lived through the retaking of Markarth, but I've never heard anyone verbally mention these supposed atrocities on Ulfric's part.

 

Getting away from the objective and into the subjective, while Ulfric certainly has some character flaws, I also do think that he gets unfairly vilified on certain issues (both in game by NPC's and by the player community itself), mostly because of how people perceive and not necessarily because of an action or decision on his part.

 

For example, many NPC's and a lot of Skyrim fans accuse Ulfric of racist and xenophobic tendencies, but the reality is Ulfric never says anything racist to anyone and the fact that all manner of races are allowed to live in Windhelm shows that everyone is allowed in....yes, we can discuss the slums being almost exclusively inhabited by the Dunmer, but the fact is they are still allowed to live and work in Windhelm. How many Nords or Imperials do you think are allowed to live in Summerset Isle? How many Argonians are allowed to live in Morrowind (excluding those that might be slaves)?

 

Another accusation is in regards to Ulfric's war crimes, which is totally based on a "historical" book written by an author who fully supports Imperial rule over Nordic independence.

 

There is hardly anyone in Skyrim without some sort of issue or defect....Ulfric included. But far too often people want to jump on the "let's hate on Ulfric bandwagon" simply because they see so many others do the same. There is enough left open to interpretation that I just can't see Ulfric as the ignorant, racist, power-mad ruler that so many make him out to be.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Padre86

[Rethrain]

 

But far too often people want to jump on the "let's hate on Ulfric bandwagon" simply because they see so many others do the same. There is enough left open to interpretation that I just can't see Ulfric as the ignorant, racist, power-mad ruler that so many make him out to be.

 

 

I don't hate Ulfric, to me he is just another warlord, plenty of those, hell even I am one in the game. Though, I must admit, a lot of others do simply hate him out of hating him and some can be very nasty (and that's putting it mildly). But, not when they give examples of it, without constantly berating people, regardless whether people agree on the veracity of the proofs and examples or interpretations.

[monganfinn]

 

And similarly, the Thalmor presence was not just a facade designed to incite the flames of civil war...there were Justicar patrols and torture center (think GITMO but in Skyrim) where Nords were being taken to for interrogation and silencing....anyone recall the rescue mission for the family member out of Whiterun (was it the Battleborns or the other family, I forget).

You had to save Thorald Greymane from Fort Northwatch. However while the Thalmor definitely truly want to stamp out Talos worship inciting the flames of Civil War IS a point on their argenda with the worshipper hunts - those are fully compatible goals.

 

The only real times things were considered outrageous and out of the norm was when everyone got the sword, including nobility and those who could be ransomed. So to accuse Ulfric of war crimes because of a little destruction and pillaging after the retaking of Markarth is not in "war-crime" territory by Skyrim's standards.

That´s exactly the problem, we dont really know what happened. Arrianus(Imp scholar) claims war crimes were commited. No one else mentions them thus I believe and argue that his claims are propaganda or done by Igmund/Silverblood. Others give his singular claim more weight. Id argue that there arent enough points to say either way, however since nothing can be proven and all positions are in doubt, IMO we cannot blame Ulfric for that. Its a moot point.

 

There is hardly anyone in Skyrim without some sort of issue or defect....Ulfric included. But far too often people want to jump on the "let's hate on Ulfric bandwagon" simply because they see so many others do the same. There is enough left open to interpretation that I just can't see Ulfric as the ignorant, racist, power-mad ruler that so many make him out to be.

I agree, but lets be frank, he´s a good victim, isnt he? Nords due to their appearance and germanic like culture are already a lot like Nazi germany, then there´s the Dunmer in Windhelm and Argonians + the nationalistic drive of the rebellion. The devs made it so many would believe him to be a racist asshole. Furthermore several long time TES players are still enamoured with the Empire from previous games (interestingly enough this is the same argument as many npcs bring forth "we were always with the Empire" and the Imp moto, better together than separate also pulls people towards them.

 

But, not when they give examples of it, without constantly berating people, regardless whether people agree on the veracity of the proofs and examples or interpretations.

Problem is that many on both sides dont bother with examples or arguments based on examples ingame. This discussion degrades on most forums into accusations of being idiots. And even if not, if one side simply says: I got another impression this isnt really helpful for the discussion. Not that I truly believe that we will find common ground any time soon :laugh: