Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[khyloskye]

Making a decision based on those scenes alone is not enough, and the Imperial one made me like and respect Rikke. I may be biased because I'm not one to like this 'Nordic pride', but I fully understand and support Balgruuf who ever had the safety of his people in mind and heart, and he ultimately refused Ulfric's claim. One may say Tullius was wrong to have let himself insulted by this Nordic pride and was close to leaving Whiterun to stand on her own, but there's a reason why leaders aren't alone. If we discount Ulfric and Tullius, there's Galmar and Rikke, and I for sure would pick Rikke's side. Meanwhile in Solitude, there's Falk Firebeard and Thane Bryling, and Elisif is young but her heart is in the right place. The Imperial side just has more deserving and/or skilled leaders/noble figures. Not saying that the Stormcloak side have no good leaders but...

 

Ulfric's conversation with Galmar was indeed moving and I still remember the first time I came into the Palace of the Kings hearing that conversation. But after that, there wasn't much left to convince me to believe or trust in Ulfric. *shrug* (Ugh, I shrug too much. :3)

 

Hmm, interesting. I always saw Rikke as a bit of a sell-out, and Galmor as the more noble of the two...you can be violent and noble at the same. And I don't agree the Imperial side has more noble and deserving leaders, but I guess a lot of it is up to interpretation.

 

I do agree on Balgruuf though. He's hands-down one of my favorite NPC's in the game, and sort of personifies the civil war itself. He's wise, fair, very likable, and his dialogue is excellently written. But he's caught in the middle between two opposing factions. He's a tragic figure in a Stormcloak-sided game, and I had a hard time enduring his words to me after I helped storm Dragonreach. But not because I thought he was right about the war, it was simply because I really liked the guy and considered him a friend. Whiterun is arguably the most important city in the game, and you can tell the devs put a lot of work into making it a quality place.

[monganfinn]

^gold!! Leddbate gold!

 

On the comparison with Nazi Germani:

Come on people, yes they don´t look nor act like nazi, but the propaganda of the nazi glorified the ancient germanic cultures - the danes, vikings, etc. So yeah, the Nords arent based on nazi germany, never claimed that, but many of those claiming the Nords are racist pigs (not pig children! = Orcs) also link them with the NS regime because of:

-tall, blond, blue eyed

-hero cults

-"germanic" in the broadest sense

-racial superiority

-nationalism

-some xenophobic tendencies

-Skyrim´s post war situation and Germany´s post war situation

-Dunmer of Windhelm

-Khajiit caravans not being allowed in the cities

I mean srsly, if the Redguards or the Dunmer would act like the Nords, no one would accuse them of being Nazi wannabes! The whole comparison only works because of superficial similarities.

 

On the Khajiit:

Actually I´d first of all argue that you would be well advised not to let potential spies (the kingdoms of Elsweyr are a client states of the Dominion) into your cities.

Secondly, the Khajiit who you encounter in Skyrim are apparently all exiles from Elsweyr, thus criminals! (cant verify this but it is viral in the net) We dont know their crimes and they may very well be exiled for speaking out against the Dominion or something like that, but the point stands.

Thirdly, the caravans all sell Moonsugar and skooma, both illegal in Skyrim.

BUT please take notice that as far as I know we have no mention of non caravan affiliated Khajiit having problems going into cities?! IMO its just the caravans who arent allowed in the cities, for good reasons as stated above. Single Khajiit like the one in Riften should IMO have no problem going into cities.

Another point is that the oh so liberal Imperials also dont let the caravans into the cities.

 

On the Empire being favoured because of Oblivion/Morrowind:

OK! This apparently doesnt apply to anyone here, but I found several mentions on the web saying otherwise, and quite frankly it´s an understandable POW: you spent two games + Battlespire before that working for the Empire (more or less), you saved it repeatedly, in Oblivion you even befriended the heir to the throne! Over the course of several games the player became familiar with the empire and in Skyrim the player suddenly can openly defy it...

"But, but, but ... weren´t we always with the Empire?"

 

On the different dynasties=/= no single Empire:

Referencing one of the above posts: sadly you, myself and some others are quite alone with this sentiment: just look into any forum and you will find lots of posts like this:

"If the Stormcloaks worship Talos then how come they revolt against his own Empire?!"

"The 3rd Empire of Man"

"Shouldn´t the Dragonborn as a potential Septim have a claim to the throne?"

"Without the Nords the Empire would have never existed"

"The Nords were always with the Empire, to revolt now is simply going against what they stand for" - when the Mede Emperors probably never set foot on Skyrim´s soil and only has the land because the High king swore fealty.

and many many more in that vein...

Even ingame the npcs dont differentiate much betweent he Mede and Septim Empires - look up the dialogue of the smith in Solitude: the Jarl has always been with the Empire.

Admitably it has been 200 years, the Mede Empire existed for them since forever, while its but a child to the elves.

 

Actually I quite like Rikke too, but she isnt a very important point is she? She is a mere legate, and has no impact on how the Mede Empire should be seen. Furthermore even she has a lot of doubts about the position of the Empire and is actually quite torn as we can learn from her when she talks about Ulfric and Galmar.

 

Elisif cannot plead simply being inexperienced, and even if that would be her only fault, let us not forget that she isnt just a Jarl but the Imperial candidate for being High King/Queen! I mean planning a military parade while in the midst of a civil war?!?! Sending an army to check out a cave ?!?!? Even if justified afterwards - Potema, and lots of other bad decisions. That would be understandable if she is a child, but she isnt and her very own thanes speak quite ill of her: "Do you trust in Elisif?" "I trust in the leadership of Tullius" And her advisors? Merchants, deep with the Thieves Guild and if I´m not wrong there is a hint somewhere that at least one of them takes Thalmor gold.

As a Nord Dragonborn loyal to Skyrim and Nord culture, I wouldnt be able to sit Elisif on the throne of Skyrim, for while she is kind, understanding and only tries her best she also incorporates the weakness eating at the nation and is exactly that what Ulfric speaks out against, a weak ruler who would let the Empire walk all over Skyrim.

Nord - Stormcloak (unless there are deeper Roleplaying reasons)

Redguard - Stormcloak (they would hate the Empire more than anyone else and politically they may be happy about another kingdom they could ally with)

Dunmer - could go either way, it was probably on orders of Boethia anyway

Argonian - cant make decisions for the Hist

Cyrodiilian - Empire (unless there are deeper Roleplaying reasons)

Khajiit - probably both sides, depends on the amount of moonsugar

Altmer - could go either way, or Thalmor: then simply do nothing connected to the CW

Breton - ?

Orc - ?

Bosmer - ?

 

Finally I want to say that it cannot be argued that the Stormcloaks are a Nord supremacist movement. The war cry "Skyrim for the Nords" which is often called offensive doesnt mean that foreigners/non Nords should be chased from the land, that´s just impossible and never implied! It just means they want to rule themselves! It means that they dont wish to give Skyrim to the Empire or the Thalmor! And yes, since the ruling class of Skyrim consists out of Nords independence would leave Skyrim in the hands of Nords.

[Rethrain]

Yeah, I'm afraid I'd have to agree, you and others are pretty much alone on the whole a Different Dynasty a Different Empire. At least in the European way. I don't really know what the tradition is in China.

 

I tend not to touch the whole Nazi stuff, it's just a game. It was a very particular time, and eh, just a game.

 

I always played Nord myself, my main always choosing the Empire. Though this should not have any bearing on anything, to be honest.

 

I do like Jarl Balgruuf myself, also. And very rememberable. Is that a word?

 

I agree, Elisif is a mess, haha. Though, let's not forget, the Thieve's Guild is in Riften too, Lila Law-Giver is being played by them pretty bad. Not that it makes any difference if Riften is in Imperial hands either.

[Padre86]

Monganfinn,

I agree with most of what you are saying. If I take your Nazi reference to literal, I apologize, but I too have heard a lot of players refer to the Stormcloaks as a Nordic supremacist group, so maybe subconsciously writing a response to them.

 

And your breakdown on Elisif and why a traditional Nord player would likely side with the Stormcloaks is spot on! I understand that there is disagreement behind the legality and morality of Ulfric's challenge of High King Torygg, but in the game itself, after the assassination has already happened, it's really hard for someone RP'ing a traditional Nord to side with and/or respect Elisif and the Imperial cause in general. Elisif is obviously being used as a political pawn and puppet-ruler by the Empire, and the Imperial officials in Skyrim seem much more focused on bringing the province in line, rather than addressing the core concerns and grievances of the Nordic peoples.

 

As many have pointed out, Ulfric himself may have been manipulated by the Thalmor while imprisoned and his rebellion may be playing into their greater ambitions, but at the very least, once his rebellion has succeeded you know that he is trying to set up a free and independent kingdom for the Nords. The Imperials simply want Skyrim to remain under their control (and use Elisif to further that goal) so that they can utilize its resources and manpower...it's hard to throw your support behind such a cause as a traditional Nord.

[Caerulean]

Well, I only made that comparison because someone pointed out the scenes between Ulfric and Galmar and between Tullius and Rikke. I wouldn't worry about Tullius' shortcomings too much when he has Rikke as his legate. I also wouldn't worry about Elisif too much, as she has good support. Perhaps I have a bias towards Elisif because I'm all for genuine, kindhearted characters. It always gives me hope that whatever bad happens, the good will eventually pour forth. On the Stormcloak's side, I would support Laila, but it's clear she is being played, even by her own steward; and this is rather unfortunate given her presumable age and experience. *shrug* Regardless, Riften will be corrupt for a long time, and I'm glad enough that Mjoll tries her best to keep the city streets 'safe'.

 

I do not know if this holds much weight, but I pretty much agree with what has been discussed here: https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrim/comments/3p6dzy/by_azura_do_the_stormcloak_jarls_suck

[monganfinn]

Lila Law-Giver is being played by them pretty bad

But at least she knows that. Not only does she imply that when talking to the LDB but also there is either cut content or ingame footage where she has a standoff with Maven when the Imps take Riften.

 

At least in the European way. I don't really know what the tradition is in China.

 

Err, if we talk RL history its the same everywhere. The major European royal families of the last 1000 years are either related anyway, so no real change of dynasty occurs when they usurp each other, or their kingdoms fracture a lot. France is a good example: after the line of the Sun King gets offed in the revolution are you telling me that France remained the same? From the outside perhaps, after all the borders of the major states of Europe didn´t change that much for a long time, but on the inside?

The argument of the Empire supporters (and some stormcloaks enthusiasts) is that the Nords MADE the Empire! And I have to question myself which Empire they mean? The Mede´s? As far as I remember he is some Colovian warlord who got the Imperial city with some 1000 soldiers from another despot and had to rely on a politician to have the Elder Council accept him (or so make the novels believe us).

 

My point: the borders of the states in the west are quite constant (with a lot of exceptions), but they dont change with dynasties but rather regular wars. In China however the ascend of a new dynasty (Romance of the 3 Kingdoms) mostly brings about great changes to the whole land because the borders flactuate, the capital changes, the culture to some degree etc.

Think the roman empire after it split into two.

 

 

I do like Jarl Balgruuf myself, also. And very rememberable. Is that a word?

Oh I like him too, as intended by the devs no doubt, though he too has some dark spots: being unable to get his children into line, where is his wife anyway and who is Nelkir´s mother? Then there´s Mephala working ther "magic" in Dragonsreach and after you win Whiterun for the Stormies there apparently is some dialogue that hints at him having been jealous of Ulfric for being chosen as apprentice to the Greybeards. Either way the rivalry between Whiterun and Windhelm is semi old news.

Balgruuf is just another char whom we quickly make an opinion about and then notice he has quite a lot of things stoved away. Doesnt change that he is quite likable.

And well, language is in constant flux, I guess its a word now at least XD

it's hard to throw your support behind such a cause as a traditional Nord.

 

It IMO doesnt even has that much to do with tradition, lets face it Elisif is a weak ruler, and even if she has the best of advisors, those dont sit on the Elder council, she does -and the other councillors will walk over her like a carpet. You dont have to be a traditional Nord to dislike that. Anyone who likes a strong Skyrim that isnt just the breading chamber for strong legionnaires would have a problem with that.

 

I wouldn't worry about Tullius' shortcomings too much when he has Rikke as his legate.

 

Tullius himself IMO isnt the problem, he is only taken as an example of how the Imperials view the Nords. And that is pretty much: "a barbarious lot that is constantly drunk and fighting over idiotic things, screaming about senseless honour, without our guidiance they would be unable to survive till morning."

 

I also wouldn't worry about Elisif too much, as she has good support.

 

I would support Laila, but it's clear she is being played

Err, you realise that Elisif is neither respekted by her steward, thanes or even servants. Who has the keys to the wing of Pelagius - the steward, who actually decides things at court - the steward: or rather Erikur I believe, too lazy to look up his position right now. One of her advisors also has ties to the Thieves Guild IMO and accepts Thalmor/Empire gold.

The difference between Eilisif and Laila is that Laila actually might govern if people would let her, she is kept from doing so because that would go against the money purse of Maven, Elisif is kept from governing because she would run down the hold within the month.

I agree that she is a good person, and kind, and loveable and so on, but srsly? she simply isnt leader quality, who is the one who speaks at the High Hrothgar summit for the western half of skyrim again? Elisif? nope Tullius!

 

I do not know if this holds much weight, but I pretty much agree with what has been discussed here: https://www.reddit.c...loak_jarls_suck

 

Let´s be frank, the Jarls are a mess! All of them, not like banditry endorsing Siddgeir, perhaps oath breaking/people slaugthering Igmund + has the silver bloods dancing on his mug, puppet ruler Elisif, I need my huscarl to remind my people I need to be respected as jarl while they clamour in the streets how unhappy they are Igrod are any better than Laila who rules Maven´s city, Korir who (semi rightly) hates his cities greatest asset, or you are all spies man child Skald!

The Jarls on either side are ... urghh, yeah that fits them.

Ulfric has the whole black powder keg with the Argonians and Dunmer, Brunwulf actually might be a good jarl (dont know anything really negative about him), but his positivity of the Imp questline is more than overshadowed by keeping Siddgeir in power, giving Riften to Maven, a part at which I growl each time (why couldnt they include a quest to off her??), and actually giving Skyrim´s rule to Elisif.

Dengeir isnt all that bad, sure he is paranoid, but his court just betrayed him and gave his jarldom to another, I´d be paranoid too.

Silverblood elder brother? lets hope he doesnt know what his younger brother is up to, if so I could back him, otherwise which is sadly far more probable he is a corrupt/genocidal ass but at least not criminally incompetent.

Sorli? interestingly enough she refers to the 8 divines. She has an Argonian huscarl, cant find anything bad about her.

[khyloskye]

Well, I only made that comparison because someone pointed out the scenes between Ulfric and Galmar and between Tullius and Rikke. I wouldn't worry about Tullius' shortcomings too much when he has Rikke as his legate. I also wouldn't worry about Elisif too much, as she has good support. Perhaps I have a bias towards Elisif because I'm all for genuine, kindhearted characters. It always gives me hope that whatever bad happens, the good will eventually pour forth. On the Stormcloak's side, I would support Laila, but it's clear she is being played, even by her own steward; and this is rather unfortunate given her presumable age and experience. *shrug* Regardless, Riften will be corrupt for a long time, and I'm glad enough that Mjoll tries her best to keep the city streets 'safe'.

 

I do not know if this holds much weight, but I pretty much agree with what has been discussed here: https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrim/comments/3p6dzy/by_azura_do_the_stormcloak_jarls_suck

 

I've read that jarl post too, it's a good synopsis of the them.

 

Interesting you chose kindheartedness as a reason for your views, in that regard Elisif certainly fits the bill. I guess I never saw Skyrim as a Tolkien-esque realm where things that are good and fair and bright always triumph in the end. To me, Skyrim is muddy and bloody and cruel. Skyrim's Civil War is the good and bad all thrown in the same pit to fight it out. Skyrim is a contradiction. That's what makes it so interesting and beautiful to me.

Edited May 5, 2016 by khyloskye

[Rethrain]

No, I can't say Lila knows about it, if she did, she certainly is to proud to notice. The Standoff is not really indicative that she knew...and/or did or would do anything about it anyways. I really don't see the improvement. Well...I know she would desert her people if Riften has a problem. Do you remember her talk with the steward? "It is only fair that Riften's Jarl should be spared" (I'm paraphrasing) when her Steward prepared a...what was it? Carriage if the fight reached Riften, just in case. As for respect, you said it yourself, people don't let Laila rule, the reason for that is also a lack of respect. I suppose this enters into the whole Jarls are pretty bad thing.

 

Yeah, I agree with Balgruuf, though, all Jarls have skellys in their closets. Or giant swords. :0 So yeah, the Jarls have things...all of them... a lot. It's frustrating really.

 

Agreed with the different countries, I suppose it would be more proper to say that you rebel against what it became.

 

As for Tullius, I think you are reading too much into it, lol. But I suppose it's fine.

 

 

Edit#1: I edit my posts a lot, so sorry if anyone answers while I'm...err...editing. Sometimes I don't like how something "sounds" so I change it.

[Caerulean]

I never said Elisif was 'so' qualified to rule as either the Jarl of Solitude or the High King of Skyrim. But in a world full of strife and immoralities, someone with a good conscience gives me hope. It doesn't matter much in the long run if she has weak leadership skills, it's either she learns or gets replaced. The people in her court may be the ones having the control and the decisive power, (What do you call the executive, legislative, and judicial power as a collective? xD) but I wouldn't say that 'every'-one disrespects her or callously disregards her as at least some still act with her propriety and due process. *shrug*

 

Yes, about the parade, although it could work for morale, it was really not the right time, and is mostly a waste of time. Still could be nice after the victory though. Meanwhile, the Burning of King Olaf festival occurs every week. :3 About an 'army' being sent into Wolfskull Cave almost immediately was a premature decision, but it was refreshing to see someone listen and respond directly to her subject with an utmost expression of concern. Just me, I guess. xD It was pretty much the same situation when the unawakened Dragonborn was sent from Riverwood to Whiterun to ask for aid. Regarding Balgruuf's children, two of them may be lost at the moment but at least his firstborn is level-headed, I believe.

 

I also wouldn't worry about Idgrod much. It's a misunderstanding between the people and their government that will probably come to rest, especially after the vampire case is resolved; and hopefully the living conditions will improve despite being close to a deadly marsh. Her 'cooperation' with Falion should prove useful in the long run, and as far as I can see, neither has bad intentions for the hold. And visions don't come to be simply of nuisance or inconvenience to the person all the time, I believe.

 

Steward Nenya and the people of Falkreath are generally good and trustworthy. The Jarl figures though - one is corrupt and the other is 'getting unstable'. *shrug* But I'm mostly convinced that Nenya and the rest of the folk can handle the problems they have.

[monganfinn]

 

Skyrim's Civil War is the good and bad all thrown in the same pit to fight it out. Skyrim is a contradiction. That's what makes it so interesting and beautiful to me.

Totally agree!

 

Carriage if the fight reached Riften, just in case.

When a dragon begins torching down Riften, a perfectly sound decision IMO considering that the city is built out of wood XD I get what you mean, however in the cut civil war content Laila is actually seen figthing against the Imps.

 

As for Tullius, I think you are reading too much into it,

Yes and no, that Skyrim is incapable to exist without control from Cyrodiil is the common opinion of several people, npcs and gamers alike. Just look at all the posts claiming that Skyrim is incapable of sustaining itself economically or even feed itself - when the kingdom of Skyrim is far older than the Empire in Cyrodiil! And was independent during large swaths of time.

The whole bit that the barbaric nords need Imperial control isnt just taken from Skyrim but from several books as well, Nords are always portrayed as barbaric. Just read the PGEs that arent full of Septim´s pro Nord propaganda. Its even in the whole premise of the CW: the traditional duel between Ulfric and Torygg, inacceptable by Imperial standards.

And the half-independent Jarls who dont listen to Tullius: You Nords and your bloody Jarls! - Tullius

The mammoth in the garden outside is a good workforce, but you wouldn´t like it trapsing through your house, nor act as it wishes in your own garden. And that´s how the Imperials view the Nords IMO.

 

As for respect, you said it yourself, people don't let Laila rule, the reason for that is also a lack of respect.

Na, its because Maven´s paying everyone off, Laila can´t even trust her own huscarl because he´s sleeping with Anuriel, who is an agent of Maven.

"Umid sweet, how about that ... training session?"

 

but I wouldn't say that 'every'-one disrespects her(Elisif!) or callously disregards her as at least some still act with her propriety and due process.

When asked if he puts his trust in Elisif, the thanes and steward answer with a clear "no! we trust Tullius" so yeah, she is disrespected. Frankly I dont fault her, she wasnt meant to rule and simply doesnt have the experience. The problem is we have no indication she would ever be able to get the xp and backbone she needs: when Tullius tells her to shut up at the summit in High Hrothgar SHE F****** does so! A Jarl and to be High Queen letting some random ass general walk all over her??

 

but it was refreshing to see someone listen and respond directly to her subject with an utmost expression of concern. Just me, I guess.

No, no I agree. She is a good person. But I wouldnt like someone like her ruling me. Lets say she had her will and a whole army marches down there, 1st the army wouldnt have entered the cave unoticed, so the necromancers would have prepared to combat them = huge casualties perhaps even anihiliated if Potema could have managed to come back? Anyway, what if Elisif´s actions would have cost her the war? The result of that good deed would have been the sack of Solitude - would you still applaud her decision?

 

Balgruuf's children, two of them may be lost at the moment but at least his firstborn is level-headed, I believe.

"Father says I am not old enough to train with swords, so I train with my fists!"

"You are a spoiled child...." - to his sister, and he is right

-yeah he is by far the most likeable of the three, but Hulda says that all three of them are being difficult (putting it mildly) and we dont know how much, and on who he trains those fists.

 

It's a misunderstanding between the people and their government that will probably come to rest, especially after the vampire case is resolved; and hopefully the living conditions will improve despite being close to a deadly marsh. Her 'cooperation' with Falion should prove useful in the long run, and as far as I can see, neither has bad intentions for the hold. And visions don't come to be simply of nuisance or inconvenience to the person all the time, I believe.

It is no misunderstanding, the people outright tell you they mistrust her because she doesnt do anything, doesnt even speak to them! as is apparently normal for a Jarl and invites some mage to live in their midst + burned down house.

Its a deep problem for Morthal, a probelm so deeply entranched that ther own huscarl is plotting to have her removed and warn visitors that they have to be respectful towards her. The vampire case actually helped her as it gave the citizen someone else to blame for the problems, its like bread and games! But the major problem is that the people and the Jarl are estranged, perhaps because of her husband and steward who shields her too much, but the point stands that because of her visions (which can be quite without reasons as her visions arent god given warnings but attunement to magic - Augur/+ perhaps prophetic dreams of the Septim line) are occuring more often. The condition in her family is so strong that her youngest child even needs medical attention!

IMO the living conditions aren´t that bad, at least no major factor as they are as worse in other parts of Skyrim.

Falion, I dont blame her for getting him into the city, I blame her for not talking it over with her citizen first. Magephobia isnt exactly a surprising problem in a city like Morthal. Factor in that Falion is actually a conjurer (2nd worst class of mage to be before necromancers in the eyes of the people) and his research actually is about turning vamps human again, something not really directly beneficial to the citizen and you have a bad decision on Igrod´s part.

 

Steward Nenya and the people of Falkreath are generally good and trustworthy.

They put Siddgeir on the throne - ´nough said!

And Dengeir actually seems to be less unhinged than people claim. Read up on Skald (admitably that guy is mentally queer) and Laila, both claim that there are imperial spies amidst them. In Windhelm you also find an imperial spy among the Dunmer. Dengeir has quite case going for him that his paranoia is justified, I remind you he was just betrayed and ousted from his position.

 

No, I can't say Lila knows about it, if she did, she certainly is to proud to notice.

The battle would have concluded with this exchange between Laila, Maven, and Legate Rikke, although Rikke's dialogue is incorrectly attributed to Galmar Stone-Fist: Maven: "I think I'll like living here." Laila: "So enters Maven Black-Briar, the glint of Imperial coin in her eyes. So tell me, what's the price for a woman's integrity these days?" Maven: "You never were able to see the forest for the trees, were you?" Laila: "We Nords were proud warriors once. And we still could be. Evidenced by the men and women who fought and died bravely today. You could see that if you had any faith left in that black heart of yours. But no, you're content to snatch scraps falling off the Emperor's table. Fine. Take my home. Take my city. May it burn down around you." Maven: "A bit melodramatic, even for you Laila. Pack your things and go." Laila: "One day when you can see past your own interests, you will come to see that we were right. And this... This is all wrong." Rikke: "If you ladies are finished bickering, there's much to be done. Jarl Black-Briar put your government together. Do it now, or there will be rioting in the streets. We must move quickly to prevent further violence." Maven: "Jarl Black-Briar. I must admit, I do like the sound of that. And don't worry about any rioting, Legate. I have it under control. We will soon begin publicly executing captured men. That should send a clear message to the people." Laila: "Yes, but not likely the one you intend." Maven: "Oh? I don't expect anyone to miss my meaning. Come, Legate. There's much to do." On the other hand, if you were a Stormcloak taking the city back from the Empire (either due to losing the city in a battle or as a result of Season Unending), this exchange between Maven, Laila, and Galmar would play (note this is the same dialogue that would play if you were taking the city of Markarth back for the Empire under the same circumstances): Laila: "Ahhh... It's good to be home." Maven: "Welcome back. I've left a few surprises for you to discover." Laila: "How kind of you. And I've brought an army to give you a going away parade." Galmar: "If you two are finished with the touching homecoming, there's a city in chaos out there." Laila: "Indeed. Come, there is much to be done." + once she is exiled to Windhelm or when you are her thane as far as I remember there is a line where she tells you that she knew all along that Maven and her steward (who is put there by Maven) conspire against her. Umid Snow-Shod, her huscal also tells us that there were several attempts on Laila´s life already "I dont know if they were dark brotherhood assassins or mere imperial agents..." the dark brotherhood are in Maven´s pocket too. The problem with Riften is that Maven holds all the cards, she simply is too important for the economy. Have you looked a bit at the UESP dialogue lines of Maven and Hemming, her son?