Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Rethrain]

Yep, good talk, see you around.

[Caerulean]

The thing is with Elisif is that she's young and she knows when to shut up and listen, especially to Tullius who's the person most responsible for leading the Imperials against the Stormcloak rebellion; and the people in her court very well know that. But my point was that she was more 'disregarded' than 'disrespected'; if it was 'disrespect', she'd be out of the office sooner than we know it, or that they wouldn't deal with her with even the slightest of proprieties.

 

The people of Hjaalmarch need to calm themselves. Even Idgrod, at the end of the abrupt Falion's Secret quest, went to confront Falion and warned him against his actions. His secret is never revealed though, but it's most likely still in the good side but very risky, and will most likely cause 'misunderstandings' with and upset the locals.

 

With Falkreath, even with the shady situation there, I sense no tension and the locals seem to be content. :3

 

I would pick Laila any day over Maven, but even with her on the Jarl's throne, Maven's clutch will not be removed so easily. But like someone said, it's kind of better with her actually on the throne and so the people cannot put the blame for any shortcomings in leadership and other tragedies on anyone else but Maven. The fates of the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood will probably hold weight on her power; and sooner or later, her corruption will be confronted and possibly be put to justice. That, or she dies corrupt. Imagine if Jyggalag found himself in Riften and sees the mess that it is. lol

[MidbossVyers]

Attributing "Skyrim belongs to the Nords" to the Stormcloaks is pretty shallow, given that all Nords have this line in battle, whether Stormcloak, Legionnaire, or random bandit.

[monganfinn]

 

Elisif is that she's young and she knows when to shut up and listen, especially to Tullius who's the person most responsible for leading the Imperials against the Stormcloak rebellion; and the people in her court very well know that. But my point was that she was more 'disregarded' than 'disrespected'; if it was 'disrespect', she'd be out of the office sooner than we know it, or that they wouldn't deal with her with even the slightest of proprieties.

Skyrim isnt a democracy where you can oust unliked politicians from their office. How would the empire justify removing her? They could kill her or blame some crime on her, but that would just play into Ulfric´s hands. And it doesn´t matter how right she is in listening to those with superior experience, she outranks them by a large margin! The fact is that Tullius has no right whatsoever to quiten her. When the player enters the audience hall and the guy who asks for assistence against Potema gets granted an army Erikur (I believe) "advises" her to send fewer soldiers. How must that look to the villager? The steward/Thane being more capable and totally willing to counterdict the jarls orders? But even worse the Jarl actually listens to him! Lets look at Balgruuf - he shuts up Avenicci quite fast when he tries to voice his opinions where they aren´t asked. And then we have the player´s dialogue with Erikur and the other court members: dialogue where they openly critic Elisif and say that they dont put trust in her leadership but rather Tullius! You might think they dont disrespect her because they dont act overtly disrespectful, but the mere fact that they are willing to speak out against her in public and and thus undermine her position with the citizens is only possible if they disrespect her!

Let´s be frank, do you thing that Elisif as High Queen would be able to keep the other Jarls in line with her politics by herself? Or will they just do whatever they want to or are forced to do economically by the Empire?

 

The people of Hjaalmarch need to calm themselves.

I agree, the trouble with Falion is over the top "mage-phobia" even for Skyrim. But that Igrod disregards the will of her people is another matter.

 

With Falkreath, even with the shady situation there, I sense no tension and the locals seem to be content.

So Siddgeir getting a "cut" of a bandit groups ... earnings, is ok as long as the people are happy?

 

Attributing "Skyrim belongs to the Nords" to the Stormcloaks is pretty shallow, given that all Nords have this line in battle, whether Stormcloak, Legionnaire, or random bandit.

Yeah, maybe but its an usual post when the discussion falls into the nationalism/racist track, anyway IMO the argument that the slogan should be attributed to the cloaks isnt totally wrong: after all what kind of purpose would a bandit have to scream that, especially if the player is a Nord? Why would a legionnaire need to scream it if he fights cloaks? The slogan only makes sense coming from the mouths of people fighting the Forsworn or the cloaks who fight for an independent Skyrim, where it means "Skyrim doesn´t belong to foreing powers = Empire/Thalmor"

[Caerulean]

Dude, calm yourself. lol Even though Skyrim is set in such a medieval setting, people with different personalities, perspectives, and styles are bound to be born into it. The government system is not a democracy, yes, but it isn't impossible to replace someone when the people become greatly dissatisfied.

 

Here comes Elisif, a recent widow, with a passion for her people and land, a humble ear, and a small pride. Must every Jarl always fit the standards or demands of the so-called 'hardy' Skyrim people? She pretty much knows her place as she only became a Jarl because her husband died. General Tullius' task is to lead their side against the Stormcloaks, so he should do his job. What then if she keeps getting interrupted or asked/told to rest aside? Was she insulted? Cannot she improve when the time comes? Any evidence that the people of Haafingar are dissatisfied with her office? The combination of Elisif, Falk, Sybille, and Bryling seems to convince them well enough. Open-ended questions are always asked in this game. Many things are indefinite.

 

The court of Elisif and Balgruuf are incomparable, especially if we are going to look at Falk and Proventus by themselves.

 

Idgrod disregarding her people is not true. If it is, she wouldn't do her job at all. She stands for her people, but she is 'different', so to speak, and her steward has grown to be a bit too protective. The whining does not represent the entirety of Hjaalmarch and is half-likely just the people projecting their frustrations on the Jarl because she presently dissatisfies them. It is bound to end. Even Winterhold is still not completely abandoned although both the government (under Stormcloaks) and many locals keep complaining.

 

I never said Siddgeir should be the Jarl of Falkreath, and I've already expressed previously that I'm content with Nenya and we know that she's the one doing the good work for their people. Must we disregard the stewards as incompetent, unqualified, or misplaced? Justice will eventually come to Siddgeir, and all the other corrupt officials, in many different forms.

[monganfinn]

The government system is not a democracy, yes, but it isn't impossible to replace someone when the people become greatly dissatisfied.

disrespect =/= dissatisfied, yeah sure Dengeir for example was replaced. But why would they want to replace Elisif in the first place and with whom? As far as we know she doesnt have any relatives and giving the throne to someone outside the family wouldn´t sit well with many people. And as long as she is comfortable for Erikur, Falk, Bryling, Empire she´s going to stay on the throne.

Cannot she improve when the time comes?

And when is that time? After the Moot where she becomes High Queen because the Empire wants her as a puppet monarch?

Any evidence that the people of Haafingar are dissatisfied with her office?

From memory: the Bard´s College with the burning of King Olaf, furthermore why should there be dissatisfaction because of her? She doesnt do much, most matters are done by her court members.

The court of Elisif and Balgruuf are incomparable, especially if we are going to look at Falk and Proventus by themselves.

So ... so we cannot compare Jarls with each other now? How aren´t they comparable?

Justice will eventually come to Siddgeir, and all the other corrupt officials, in many different forms.

Never even mentioned or alluded to Nenya for that matter. How please would justice come to Sidd? He´s a jarl, as long as he doesnt betray the empire, step on another Jarl´s toes and keeps his stuff low key enough nothing will ever happen to him.

Idgrod disregarding her people is not true.

According to the first group of people we see when entering Morthal, she doesn´t speak to them.

-in how many cities in Skyrim do we actually see a mob standing before the Jarl´s house?

She invites a mage to live among them and doesn´t explain the why and how to her people, nor does she follows their wishes.

-She doesn´t heed the call of the masses.

What is her answer when asked about the issue? - It´ll pass. Ironically the same answer as you gave. But why do you thing it´ll pass? Let´s say the LDB didn´t kill Morvath, what would have happened? Wouldn´t the situation have slowly escalated until someone blamed the recently having moved there mage for the disappearences of the people?

Does she care for her hold- yes. Is her decision to invite Falion actually a good and inteligent thing- yes. Is she or her decision popular- no!

Face it, Igrod and her people lost the common ground, there exists a distance between them and that will not vanish if things don´t change. To say things will get better over time is simply too optimistic. Usually they get worse!

Even Winterhold is still not completely abandoned although both the government (under Stormcloaks) and many locals keep complaining.

the lost glory of Winterhold Korir bemoans is an issue totally removed from his politics. Nor did we hear of anyone leaving the town - apart from the Dunmer chased away after the Oblivion Crisis. Actually Id say the situation in Winterhold is far better than in Morthal, at least Winterhold doesn´t have any lynch mobs stalking through the night. You will also have noticed that in Winterhold mages are actually more accepted than in Morthal, apart from Korir not trusting them. Actually Winterhold is quite an open minded city and like many of the stormcloak holds has a high rite of elven presence: Nelacar, and the steward whose name I forgot.

Edited May 7, 2016 by monganfinn

[Caerulean]

Why are you asking me when she will improve? lol Who can really say? I already said that Skyrim is an open-ended game, and it was never established to be a skills > morals game either.

 

Disrespect isn't synonymous with dissatisfaction. Notice the subtleties, and do not overthink these things. lol There are more questions in the world than there are answers, and that stands true in this game. There are always subtleties, especially in literature, music, art, or games. It's what keeps discussions going among the communities; but when questions are stretched out too much, they will eventually run out of answers.

 

The Bards College's irk on the cancellation of the festival is pretty much not directly attributable to Solitude's court. The entire hold recently lost their Jarl and High King, and it is materially unwise to be spending resources and time on festivities when a war is going on. But at least the bards will get more income.

 

They are 'in-compare-able' in the sense that they are not very much alike. Hence, there is not enough reason to make use of one court as a standard of measure for another court as they are all very different, even if one seems better than the other. If you want to compare, well, for a start, there are obviously more members in Solitude's court than Whiterun's.

 

How will justice come to Siddgeir? Do not speak as if it is impossible. xD The possibilities are endless, especially in a world where sentient deities exist.

 

Lack of communication is not synonymous with disregard. If Idgrod can listen to a mere stranger, what more to a citizen of the hold that is not rioting like it's always the best way to make an audience. Falion, as unpopular or disliked as he is, can possibly become the hero-figure of Morthal. If not him, then another. If you are keen on judging by exactly what you see, then what is shown to us is Morthal on the brink of destruction or salvation. Would it have been the time for Idgrod's visions, Falion's presence, or what little bravery remains in the citizenry to prove useless? Again, who can say?

 

The shopkeeper in Winterhold has a mind for leaving :3, and I wouldn't wonder if a few more do too. The population is currently very low; I highly doubt it was only the Dunmer who left/were chased away. There seems to be an even amount of hospitality, apathy, and pessimism in this hold. And there are only two elves outside of the College; and the College is presently pretty much disassociated from the rest of the hold's people. Neither the Imperials nor the Stormcloaks will take hold of the College, and it is only the Thalmor that are directly antagonizing the College.

[Lugalbandak]

f*#@ globalism , i side with the storms anytime

[whitenoise1]

The first time I finished the game I sided with the Imperials, but little did I know you had to kill the Emperor to complete the Dark Brotherhood quest line and I'm cool with it even if it doesn't make sense as an imperial (Dark Brotherhood fo life!). I guess you could say that I'm not committed to the empire entirely and I just didn't like the idea of Ulfric being the High King that's why I joined the Legion (He's an ass).

 

But now on my next play-through with a female Dovahkiin I'm gonna side with the Storm Cloaks and see their perspective on this. I just wished Bethesda could've made it possible for the Dragonborn to be High King, Ulfric is an ass, Elisif will become a puppet. I mean, Tiber Septim was Dragonborn when he was still "Talos of Atmora" and he became Emperor, so why didn't they make a story where you could be High King (Yeah, I know there's a mod "Become High King" of course).

[Moksha8088]

f*** globalism , i side with the storms anytime

Ulfric would probably favor building a wall around the perimeter of Skyrim and having Highrock, Hammerfell, Cyrodiil and Morrowind pay for it.