Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[monganfinn]

Ulfric is damning his own country to lack of allies, and an inability to contribute to that greater front.

He is searching for allies though. In his dialogue it is mentioned that High Rock wasn´t amiable to an alliance. The Bretorns are Bretons, they are going to wait until they know who the winners are, Galmar once thought of making a dragon their allie. Apart from in the cut content he made pacts with giants. Hammerfell has no reasons to object to an alliance with Skyrim. Morrowind and Argonia are either too weak or non interested in outside politcs to be an allie either way. Once the AD rears its head again both Cyrodiil and High Rock will be glad about any support Ulfric would give them. He is damning no one.

If Ulfric fails to convince the rest of the Empire and the other provinces because of the Civil War which he started, what then? His plan seems to be quite plainly to overthrow the Empire then the Aldmeri Dominion. How much time do the Stormcloaks have to conquer Cyrodiil and then forge new alliances with the other races before the Dominion acts?

Why should any other province apart from Cyrodiil care about the civil war? The Crowns and Forebears in Hammerfell were at each other´s throat forever, Cyrodiil has civil wars whenever the succession of the Ruby Throne is in question - just how do you thing Mede became Emperor? Argonia and Morrowind couldn´t care less about outside politics than they do right now. High Rock is the only province that is completely untouched by war and yet doesn´t aid Tullius either, what does that tell you? It tells me that they want their independence as much as everyone else and they just let the Nords do their work to reap the benefits without spilling their own blood, as with an independent Skyrim, High Rock would de facto also gain independence.

I'm quite certain the Empire will learn more about the Thalmor than the other way around, being that they've been into northern Tamriel while so few, if any, have been to Summerset Isles.

The Empire and which secret agency? The Blades - killed by the Thalmor. The Penitus Oculatus - couldn´t stop the Thalmor before during 200 years and couldn´t stop the Dark Brotherhood in Skyrim and won´t stop anyone else in the future. Considering that the Empire has to our knowledge no one within the Thalmor bureau itself - No, the Empire won´t learn about the AD more than the AD learns about them.

And that Hammerfell is not that bitter towards the Empire.

Yeah sure, they just cried in outrage and told the Empire to get out of their lands after the Empire sold some of their country to the people that did ethinic cleansings and brought war upon them.

Perhaps by letting the Thalmor into Cyrodiil and Skyrim, the Dominion are spread farther, decreasing their numbers in certain areas; few enough that Hammerfell was able to send some Alik'r to look for a fugitive who sold Taneth to the Thalmor, for example.

The Thalmor aren´t the military arm of the AD, they are the internal police and diplomatic team + justiciars. The Thalmor being thinly spread simply means that they do not have many spies in other provinces, not that their armies are weakened. Why in the name of Ysmir would the Redguards have any problems with sending mercenaries to Skyrim? The Thalmor couldn´t have stopped them even if they wanted to.

It was not a vassal of the Empire, it was a Province under the authority of the Imperial Crown. It was basically a State government under the Federal, not an independent country of it's own.

Tell that to the Alik´r warriors, but know that they already gave their answer - it was a secession.

No, it won't. in fact, it has NEVER happened without the Empire. Even the All Flags Navy, the only time in Tamriel's history that the factions united against a common enemy, was orchestrated by the Alessian Empire.

If the Argonians could ally with the Nords and make peace with the Dunmer after centuries of slavery, then how do you think it impossible that the human nations would not ally with each other?

By agreeing to the Concordant, the Empire at least gained some minor insight into the Dominion's position, if for no reason beyond the fact that they didn't demand even MORE.

They would have gained that insight already before signing it and could have stopped talks as they saw that the Dominion was willing to have peace instead of continuing the war. Are you srsly believing that the Empire believed the AD had other armies just sitting behing the borders? The mere fact that we have no indication in our lore that the AD moved any troops to re-conquer Cyrodiil shows to me that they didn´t have the manpower. Let´s also not forget that 2 armies were defeated on mainland Tamriel. The AD planned to conquer both Hammerfell and Cyrodiil and attacked both provinces simmultaneously, considering that elves aren´t as fertile as humans the loss of manpower on the AD´s side must have been great as well.

Those 'few loyal legionnaires' formed the backbone of the Alak'r Warriors who drove the Dominion back across the desert, and held the line in Hammerfell for 5 years. And even with them, against a supposedly 'weakened' enemy, the Redguard were unable to reclaim the occupied territories in a land that has historically only been beneficial to them.

Yes, "few", because ,IMO, hiding the fact that he disobeyed an order from the Emperor would warrant not leaving behind a majority of his soldiers. You are talking as if they were the main fighting force in Hammerfell. If so why didn´t the full Hammerfell legion throw out the AD sooner, I mean if this reduced legion is so mighty, the full legion must have been easily able to do so? Furthermore you cannot claim the remaining legion stayed in Hammerfell for 5 years as we have no idea if they stayed even after Hammerfell opted out of the Empire. As for why the Redguards couldn´t reconquer those territories; the AD still had their powerful navy and the ressources of 3 provinces behind them, naturally the lone province couldn´t just take it all back after Cyrodiil cut them off.

supposed victory Imperial Opponents like to imagine was possible

Any truce where the AD has to give up land smells like a victory. Do we have any indication that the Redguards had to give the AD something?

Had Hammerfell sucked it up and waited, it's likely the Dominion would have been forced to relinquish the territories through a mix of local insurrection and the fact that literally only the Redguard have ever managed to thrive in that environment.

The Khajiit thrive in their own desert as well, and please explain to me how the AD would have had to fear local insurrections more than local insurrections + an army?

There is absolutely NO evidence that the wider inquisition against Talos Worship was present in the Empire before the arrest of Ulfric following the Markarth Incident.

The Empire igrnored the inforcement, the Thalmor too? We do have a book from a bard who acted against it and was hunted down. I already linked it sooner in this discussion, though its true that no date to it is given, no mention of Ulfric or the Stormcloaks exists. IMO if I am running away from the Thalmor I´d take my feet into my arms and run east. This indicates, at least to me, that Ulfric didn´t yet start the rebellion, and the naivity of the bard suggests that not even the Markarth Incident had happened, otherwise the bard would have known that open Talos worship sends you to jail.

Skald the Elder. While he staunchly supports Ulfric, he also hates Imperials and the Empire, to the extent that he threatens an otherwise loyal subject for simply wearing their armour (which is functionally superior to Stormcloak armour) or taking pride in military service. Do you think he'd really turn around and support the Empire in a war?

He wouldn´t support the Empire, he´d fight for his own country under his own High King´s commands. Brina is not loyal at all to him though, otherwise she wouldn´t be the alternative Imperial Jarl. And I must note that it is the height of folly to wear another factions armor/uniform during times of war - I dare say that anyone walking around in NS uniform in England during WW2 wouldn´t walk on the streets for long.

He doesn't even seem too concerned about Skyrim, but rather Winterhold specifically, and would be unlikely to do anything that didn't directly benefit his holdings.

Sounds like Balgruuf too, doesn´t it?

Backstab Whiterun and invade it's territories while it's armies are away? Maybe.

IMO it is quite clear that Balgruuf wouldn´t send his armies further than his doorstep, which is in his case his hold - I know he send soldiers to Riverwood.

Third, you have Dengier, who isn't mentally fit to rule dress himself, let alone rule a Hold. His declining mental health is highly characterised by his rampant paranoia, and suspicion that everyone is an Imperial Spy out to get him. If Ulfric were to turn around and propose supporting the Imperials, how do you think the man who suspects his own nurse maid of spying on him would take it?

Yeah sure accuse the guy who was ousted from his position because of a court plot of being paranoid. Considering that we know Tullius had spies in Markarth and that the Dominion has assassins even just outside of Windhelm his paranoia is very acceptable. He can´t be a worse Jarl than Siddgeir, who cashes in on bandits´ loot. Fact is, the Jarls on both sides are suboptimal.

the Dossier indicates they are far more concerned with an Imperial Victory than a Stormcloak one, to the point where they were willing to directly intervene to save Ulfric from the Imperials (resulting in Elenwyn's presence at Helgen). They are so afraid of an Imperial victory that they were willing to blow everything to keep Ulfric from reaching the Imperial City, or being execute. Think about that before you start evaluating how dangerous the Dominion thinks 'Hostile Nords' are.

"Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed."

The Thalmor want a prolngued war, that is what we know, everything else is speculation and to read out of this paragraf that they fear an Imperial victory more than a Stormcloak one, can only be explained by bias. Nowhere do they state that they would have blown anything at Helgen, not being hands off doesn´t mean they would have kidnapped Ulfric or anything else drastic, they couldn´t even blow anything since Tullius is very well aware the prolonged war is their machination.

The Holds he has the support of are either rabidly anti-Imperial, or totally inept (Laila) and would have required very little prompting.

Again you write as if the Imperial holds are any better:

Reach - Igmund cannot keep the Silverbloods nor the Forsworn in line

Haafingar - Elisif doesn´t even truly rule herself and is as Imperial as Cyrodiil itself

Hjaalmarch - has one of the least liked Jarls of all of Skyrim

Falkreath - the less said about Siddgeir the better, as for his motivation = money!!

He manages no military victories without the PC moving the plot forward

Nor does the Empire, but Ulfric manages to scrounge enough people together to attack Whiterun where he didn´t have enough before.

heavy implication that his intervention there was prompted by the Thalmor

No such indication exists in the Markarth Incident

folk-hero with barely any knowledge of his peoples own ancestral traditions

You claim to know more about Nord tradition than someone who has studied with the Greybeards?! He might not agree with their whole pacifism and use of Thuum, nevertheless that is simply their creed, not put in stone Nord tradition. Tiber Septim opened a school for Thuum in Markarth, even if never came out of it, are you claiming he violated Nord tradition? Are you claiming Wulfharth violated Nord tradition?

Except, many times Jarls have refused the High King's edicts. There have been at least 2 major civil wars over it in Skyrim, during the Alliance War the majority of Holds outright broke away and elected their own High King instead of listen to Jorun's decisions. As Tullius says, the Jarl's aren't just local dignitaries, they're KINGS, and they are free to do whatever they please, and the High Kings have always had a hard time reigning them in (typically resulting to force).

Which is exactly why Uflric as a High King chosen by the Moot, isntead of it being a hereditary claim, would have an easier time to rally behind him. After all the Jarl are his lackeys. HIS army (+LDB) won the civil war, it is him they supported and believed in to some degree. He has already proven himself and won their allegiance before having become High King - different from Jorunn.

[monganfinn]

 

Have the Divines not already erected such a wall in the form of mountains?

Not only that, but quite frankly not only are the Trump jokes done to death but also unfitting. Huang Di built the wall of wall against the nomadic tribes of the northwest, is anyone criticizing him? (in fact we should as he killed thousands of his own people doing so) And then there is the little fact that Tamriel isn´t in the 21st century! There were no "free border policies" in the Middle Ages, even the LDB himself was, as far as we know, simply taken captive by the Empire for illegally crossing the border!

[khyloskye]

 

"The Empire agreed to hand over territories already occupied by the enemy, it didn't throw Hammerfell under the bus. When Hammerfell's provincial government refused the terms..."

 

^-- That's just the kind of imperial language that is the underlying force(besides the Thalmor) behind these rebellions. You speak of those territories as Imperial first and Hammerfell's second, as well as referring to Hammerfell's own government as merely "provincial".

 

Hammerfell has been a legislative territory of the Empire for 700 years, and made no move to secede during the Stormcrown Interregnum. It was not a vassal of the Empire, it was a Province under the authority of the Imperial Crown. It was basically a State government under the Federal, not an independent country of it's own.

 

 

That will happen with or without the Empire.

 

No, it won't. in fact, it has NEVER happened without the Empire. Even the All Flags Navy, the only time in Tamriel's history that the factions united against a common enemy, was orchestrated by the Alessian Empire.

 

Yes, it will.

 

You seem to think nothing noteworthy ever passes in Tamriel without Imperial authority. While it's true the Empire has been around in one form or another for several eras, there's nothing that says it has to continually be the perpetual leader of all mankind. The "Imperial approach" worked for the writers for a long time, but don't make the mistake of thinking that's all they know.

 

 

As for Hammerfell, it was more like a Greek city-state. Or at most a Roman province like Gaul or Egypt...but even that's stretching it. To say it is no different than Virginia is silly...that might only be true if the Articles of Confederation were still intact. In fact, they are a lot like Skyrim's holds...only major difference being allegiance to a high king(or Emperor in this case) is not obligatory nor traditional. It's only won through force.

[Padre86]

As I've said before, I think the whole right or wrong aspect of the Stormcloak rebellion comes down to whether the player can stomach Ulfric's personality.

 

I don't like certain aspects of Ulfric's personality, but I do see him as driven enough and competent enough to not only lead Skyrim into the future but also to prepare for the upcoming round of warfare with the AD (which the lore seems to indicate as inevitable). He is certainly more experienced and prepared for that job than is Jarl Elisif, who is really just a puppet ruler being run by the Imperials. And I would gladly see Skyrim ruled by the likes of Ulfric instead of Emperor Titus Mede. In one aspect, I do respect Mede because he did save the Empire from near annihilation (albeit with a lot of outside help, especially from the Nords). But on the other hand, it was under his rule that the Empire suffered a double-pronged surprise AD attack, during which the captiol was sacked and Hammerfell was abandoned. And furthermore he essentially submitted the Empire to the AD by agreeing to the terms of the Concordat and allowing Justicars to roam his lands as they pleased and allowed the iconic Blades organization to be disbanded and nearly hunted into extinction.

 

From what I've read of Mede, I think of him as an outgunned hero; by that I mean that although he may have good intentions for his kingdom, he has been fighting a losing battle, not just in terms of the AD expanding and exerting its influence but in terms of how the Empire itself has decayed from within and lost much of its former power and respect. Many Nords whole-heartedly went south to help repel and then defeat the AD armies in Cyrodil during the Great War. But I think many Nords, regardless of their allegiance in the rebellion, lost most if not all of their respect for the Empire because of the seemingly submissive concessions it made to end the War.

 

A true Nord values honor, strength, and a fight-to-the-end mentality....Some of the legions may have those qualities, but the government they fight for seems to be lacking in them. This isn't Tiber Septim's Empire anymore; if it were, I don't even know that there would have been a Stormcloak rebellion in the first place. Much like the real life Roman Empire, I think the Cyrodil-based Empire is in its twilight years, and I think that it's former and current subject states are eager to prepare themselves for independent governance.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Padre86

[monganfinn]

This isn't Tiber Septim's Empire anymore;

To be fair IMO it doesn´t even matter if it´s the Septim or Mede dynasty. Nor should it, if a ruler cannot show success, nor gain the support of the masses he is simply not qualified to rule. The adherence to a monarchic family name and to old institutions simply because "it was always like that" isn´t something to put on a pedestal and hail as virtue. We too did away with our monarchies, and the return to a moot elected High King of the Nords appeals to me more than blood rights. Even if that would lead to national instability - to say otherwise would mean that to discredit all our own revolutions. Something better may not always follow, but there´s a chance it does.

IMO the "right decision" depends on whether the player believes that the Empire/independent nations can repel the AD or not. IMO both could do it, we simply do not know enough about the military matters of Tamriel to make truly informed guesses. To say that it would be impossible for the indepedent nations to win, would mean the Switzerlands would like a word with you.

[MidbossVyers]

As I've said before, I think the whole right or wrong aspect of the Stormcloak rebellion comes down to whether the player can stomach Ulfric's personality.

 

I don't like certain aspects of Ulfric's personality, but I do see him as driven enough and competent enough to not only lead Skyrim into the future but also to prepare for the upcoming round of warfare with the AD (which the lore seems to indicate as inevitable). He is certainly more experienced and prepared for that job than is Jarl Elisif, who is really just a puppet ruler being run by the Imperials. And I would gladly see Skyrim ruled by the likes of Ulfric instead of Emperor Titus Mede. In one aspect, I do respect Mede because he did save the Empire from near annihilation (albeit with a lot of outside help, especially from the Nords). But on the other hand, it was under his rule that the Empire suffered a double-pronged surprise AD attack, during which the captiol was sacked and Hammerfell was abandoned. And furthermore he essentially submitted the Empire to the AD by agreeing to the terms of the Concordat and allowing Justicars to roam his lands as they pleased and allowed the iconic Blades organization to be disbanded and nearly hunted into extinction.

 

From what I've read of Mede, I think of him as an outgunned hero; by that I mean that although he may have good intentions for his kingdom, he has been fighting a losing battle, not just in terms of the AD expanding and exerting its influence but in terms of how the Empire itself has decayed from within and lost much of its former power and respect. Many Nords whole-heartedly went south to help repel and then defeat the AD armies in Cyrodil during the Great War. But I think many Nords, regardless of their allegiance in the rebellion, lost most if not all of their respect for the Empire because of the seemingly submissive concessions it made to end the War.

 

A true Nord values honor, strength, and a fight-to-the-end mentality....Some of the legions may have those qualities, but the government they fight for seems to be lacking in them. This isn't Tiber Septim's Empire anymore; if it were, I don't even know that there would have been a Stormcloak rebellion in the first place. Much like the real life Roman Empire, I think the Cyrodil-based Empire is in its twilight years, and I think that it's former and current subject states are eager to prepare themselves for independent governance.

But that's just it. One who seeks to rule the land must first rule the hearts of the people. A Nord certainly understands Nord hearts more than any Imperial could, and before you mention the vassal kings of the Empire, those don't matter because the Emperor would still have final say in their decisions.

[Padre86]

 

This isn't Tiber Septim's Empire anymore;

To be fair IMO it doesn´t even matter if it´s the Septim or Mede dynasty. Nor should it, if a ruler cannot show success, nor gain the support of the masses he is simply not qualified to rule. The adherence to a monarchic family name and to old institutions simply because "it was always like that" isn´t something to put on a pedestal and hail as virtue. We too did away with our monarchies, and the return to a moot elected High King of the Nords appeals to me more than blood rights. Even if that would lead to national instability - to say otherwise would mean that to discredit all our own revolutions. Something better may not always follow, but there´s a chance it does.

IMO the "right decision" depends on whether the player believes that the Empire/independent nations can repel the AD or not. IMO both could do it, we simply do not know enough about the military matters of Tamriel to make truly informed guesses. To say that it would be impossible for the indepedent nations to win, would mean the Switzerlands would like a word with you.

 

 

I made that comment about Tiber Septim because Tiber did in fact rally Nords, and other groups, to his cause through his strength of character and natural, inherent qualities (though he did do a fair bit of conquering too). If the Empire were still being ruled by a competent and charismatic ruler, then I think many Nords would be willing to stay with the Empire.

 

From what we know of Mede, I just don't think there is enough mettle to that man's character that the Nords can respect him the same way they could Tiber; and if Nords can't respect someone, it's downhill battle to get them to follow him or her.

 

I also agree with what you say about how a High King elected by a Moot appeals much more to most traditional Nords vs just following a King because he inherited the throne. Tiber and many other Nordic rulers earned and fought their way into kingship; nothing was given to them. That's the type of ruler that most Nords will respect, and I just don't see much if any of that in Mede. Ulfric, though egotistical and self-centered at times, built his movement from the ground up and fought tooth-in-nail to build his reputation and then build his kingdom. You may not like him as a person, but as Nord (which is how I played through most of my games) I could at least respect his abilities and his origins much more than I could respect Mede's or Elisif's.

[Caerulean]

 

Again you write as if the Imperial holds are any better:

Reach - Igmund cannot keep the Silverbloods nor the Forsworn in line

Haafingar - Elisif doesn´t even truly rule herself and is as Imperial as Cyrodiil itself

Hjaalmarch - has one of the least liked Jarls of all of Skyrim

Falkreath - the less said about Siddgeir the better, as for his motivation = money!!

At most, we have two Jarl choices for each hold. This has already been previously discussed in this thread, and my judgment is based mostly on goodwill, and the total credibility of each Jarl's court.

Reach - I won't trust the Silverbloods to run any Hold. The Forsworn Conspiracy was coming into its climax and only time will tell whether it will resolve for the better or worse.

Haafingar - The combination of Elisif and her court members is enough to rule Haafingar. Ulfric even allows her to keep her position if the Stormcloaks take Solitude and she submits.

Hjaalmarch - No further discontent is evident after Movarth's secret uprising is resolved (assuming it was resolved before the Civil War ends in favor of the Stormcloaks) and very little is shown after that one-time rally. The people of Hjaalmarch seems stalwart enough to get on with their lives whoever rules them. Personally, I'd trust Iddgrod more than the other Jarl. I doubt her 'visions' getting out of control is a permanent thing.

Falkreath - I can't trust either Siddgeir or Dengeir completely, but the steward is efficient enough and the rest of Falkreath are mostly good people.

About Brina, she never said she's loyal to Skald; she's loyal to Dawnstar. She didn't appoint herself to the position of Jarl if the Imperials win the Civil War; she was appointed there like most of the other (replacement) Jarls, being that they are the most qualified.

On other matters, some seem to totally discredit the Empire in favor of the Stormcloaks. I believe the Empire is better prepared for the inevitable war against the AD, than Ulfric who will need more time 'rebuilding' Skyrim and gaining more alliances. General Tullius even surrenders if the Stormcloaks win the Civil War because he seems to believe there is no victory in further death and will likely provide info to the Stormcloaks to help win against the Thalmor. He has no stubborn pride and he knows that the AD is the one true enemy. Can't say I like him that much but I'd trust the combination of Tullius and Rikke more than Ulfric and Galmar.

I didn't mean to say the other provinces would decide based on the Skyrim's Civil War alone, but based on Ulfric in general: his heart, his pride, his decisions, and possible personal motives. I don't know enough about the current emperor to say that I'd believe in his abilities more, but enough people in Skyrim still support the Imperials. The warring factions are pretty much even until the PC decides which to join, showing that Ulfric isn't getting the default vote just because he's a Nord and 'Skyrim (supposedly) belongs to the Nords'. Also, the Thalmor are more concerned about an Imperial victory than a Stormcloak victory (although still a threat), which means that the Empire is likely better prepared for second war, strategically and/or morale-wise.

(Anyway, I had a number of typos in my previous post and mistakenly said 'Thalmor' instead of 'Aldmeri Dominion' once or twice. Sorry.) Still, you'd think it wouldn't be so easy to send mercenaries back and forth Hammerfell and Skyrim if the AD troops/enforcers are that sufficient between the provinces. Just a thought. Kematu's group were supposedly there to capture someone who sold Taneth to the AD; why would they not care about these Alik'r? They're basically enemies.

I also still doubt that Hammerfell is that bitter towards the Empire to not consider rejoining them. One of the biggest factors is which faction wins the Civil War, and so if the Imperials win, the Empire can only prove that they know what they are doing. Though I don't know how fast word travels between provinces. :3

As far as the game's concerned though, the current Emperor will inevitably die and I don't know if he has a successor, but it's rather apparent that it's geared towards the current Dragonborn becoming the Emperor, sooner or later. *shrug*

Edited December 18, 2016 by Caerulean

[Lachdonin]

 

He is searching for allies though. In his dialogue it is mentioned that High Rock wasn´t amiable to an alliance. The Bretorns are Bretons, they are going to wait until they know who the winners are, Galmar once thought of making a dragon their allie. Apart from in the cut content he made pacts with giants. Hammerfell has no reasons to object to an alliance with Skyrim. Morrowind and Argonia are either too weak or non interested in outside politcs to be an allie either way. Once the AD rears its head again both Cyrodiil and High Rock will be glad about any support Ulfric would give them. He is damning no one.

 

He's trading certain allies, for potential ones. With the Empire, Skyrim is guaranteed to have Highrock, Cyrodiil and the Orcs on it's side. Blackmarsh, Morrowind and Hammerfell are maybes.

 

But without the Empire, everyone becomes a maybe.

 

 

Are you srsly believing that the Empire believed the AD had other armies just sitting behing the borders?

 

Why wouldn't they? They had no idea the Dominion had move the FIRST army to the border, and had been shown that their own intelligence about the happenings in the Dominion was sorely lacking. After the Red Ring, the only information the Empire had was the state of their armies, and the Dominion presence in Hammerfell. It had no clue what sort of reinforcements they had access to, and couldn't afford to test the waters and be proven wrong.

 

 

Yes, "few", because ,IMO, hiding the fact that he disobeyed an order from the Emperor would warrant not leaving behind a majority of his soldiers. You are talking as if they were the main fighting force in Hammerfell. If so why didn´t the full Hammerfell legion throw out the AD sooner, I mean if this reduced legion is so mighty, the full legion must have been easily able to do so? Furthermore you cannot claim the remaining legion stayed in Hammerfell for 5 years as we have no idea if they stayed even after Hammerfell opted out of the Empire. As for why the Redguards couldn´t reconquer those territories; the AD still had their powerful navy and the ressources of 3 provinces behind them, naturally the lone province couldn´t just take it all back after Cyrodiil cut them off.

 

Legends (which i personally think has a rubbish plot and takes away a lot of the more interesting elements of the Great War) indicates that not only did the Emperor know about the dismissed legionaries, he retroactively endorsed the decision, and sent the Hero to lead the forces, periodically sending supplies and reinforcements as well. It portrays the Dominion forces in Hammerfell as more than sufficient to have taken the entire province, and it was only with the efforts of the former Legion and the Hero that they managed to even hold the line.

 

 

 

Any truce where the AD has to give up land smells like a victory. Do we have any indication that the Redguards had to give the AD something?

 

They maintain a presence in Hammerfell. All they did was withdraw military occupation.

 

 

 

The Khajiit thrive in their own desert as well, and please explain to me how the AD would have had to fear local insurrections more than local insurrections + an army?

 

Different kinds of deserts. Hammerfell was called the Deathlands for a reason, the only people who had managed to eke out a particularly successful existence there before the Redguard were the Rourken Clan, and they did it by going underground.

 

And yes, insurrection + Army would obviously be faster, but it also continues a war across a wide front that the Empire had no way to protect. Had it carried on in Hammerfell, it would have required leaving hundreds, if not thousands of miles worth of border unprotected during an ongoing state of war. With no knowledge of the remaining strength of the Dominion, doing so would have been insanely risky. In fact, we STILL don't really know how strong the Dominion remained after the Red Ring, and thus are largely unable to judge whether or not it would have been suicide on the part of the Empire.

 

 

The Empire igrnored the inforcement, the Thalmor too? We do have a book from a bard who acted against it and was hunted down. I already linked it sooner in this discussion, though its true that no date to it is given, no mention of Ulfric or the Stormcloaks exists. IMO if I am running away from the Thalmor I´d take my feet into my arms and run east. This indicates, at least to me, that Ulfric didn´t yet start the rebellion, and the naivity of the bard suggests that not even the Markarth Incident had happened, otherwise the bard would have known that open Talos worship sends you to jail.

 

What are the Dominion supposed to say? "By the way, while we were spying on you, we noticed you aren't enforcing the Talos Ban". They may have been able to hunt down a select few loud mouths through their present infiltration, but they couldn't round up civilians and worshippers in public. To do so, they'd have to admit to their own wrongdoing first, before they could use the lack of enforcement to leverage greater presence. Ulfric making a public statement about reinstating Talos, and it being allowed by the administration of Skyrim, however, allows the Thalmor to call attention to the Empire's poor enforcement without implicating the Dominion.

 

 

 

The Thalmor want a prolngued war, that is what we know, everything else is speculation and to read out of this paragraf that they fear an Imperial victory more than a Stormcloak one, can only be explained by bias. Nowhere do they state that they would have blown anything at Helgen, not being hands off doesn´t mean they would have kidnapped Ulfric or anything else drastic, they couldn´t even blow anything since Tullius is very well aware the prolonged war is their machination.

 

Yes, the Thalmor want a prolonged war, but they are willing to go to much further lengths to prevent an Imperial victory than a Stormcloak one. The concern of a Stormcloak victory is almost treated as a footnote, while they make it very clear that they are willing to risk direct intervention to ensure the Empire doesn't win.

 

Since you brought up cut content, the intro in Helgen makes the nature of that intervention very clear. Elenwyn demands custody of Ulfric, Tullius tells her to shove off, and she threatens him. It was likely cut for 2 reasons; 1, it directly contradicts what Ralof had just said about the Elves being behind things, and 2; its really, really poorly acted. Like, Oblivion bad. But the point it, when combined with the information in the dossier, it's clear that the Dominion Ambassador herself tried to intervene to keep Ulfric alive. This wasn't some attempt to stage a breakout, this was a high-profile prisoner exchange (that would likely have ended with an 'accident' and Ulfric escaping).

 

 

 

Yeah sure accuse the guy who was ousted from his position because of a court plot of being paranoid. Considering that we know Tullius had spies in Markarth and that the Dominion has assassins even just outside of Windhelm his paranoia is very acceptable. He can´t be a worse Jarl than Siddgeir, who cashes in on bandits´ loot. Fact is, the Jarls on both sides are suboptimal.

 

I'm going to pick on this one, besides saying that most of the Jarls, for both sides of the conflict, are absolute s#*!. The difference being that the Imperial ones, typically, are more controllable, and slightly more competent.

 

But in this case, yes, he CAN be a worse Jarl than Siddgeir. Dengier was forced to step down because of concerns about his mental health, and the behaviour of the character is very indicative of the early stages of Alzheimer's. As someone who recently had to go through the lengthy battle of stripping my father of his legal right to make his own decisions, i can tell you, with absolute conviction, that someone exhibiting that disease is not capable of looking after themselves, let alone ruling a significant kingdom. Siddgeir is a spoiled, egotistical brat, but he isn't prone to paranoia, violent outbursts, irrational behaviour and everything else that goes with increasingly severe mental illness. Dengier needs to be cared for, not put in charge of caring for the needs of others.

 

Anyway, regarding everyone else... Balgruf is trying to abstain from the civil war, but you'd be stretching that conviction if you didn't think he'd send his armies to defend Skyrim, and it's allies, abroad. The others are less certain, but even if we assume that all the Jarls would back the motion to support the Empire later, there's still a second problem. Hundreds, if not thousands of young men and women are not being called upon to aid the very empire they just threw out. They are being asked to stand shoulder to shoulder with the same people that, as little as a few months earlier (more likely a few years, i doubt the Dominion would invade instantly) they were trying to kill. Do you honestly think the Dominion and Empire would stand side by side to repel an Akaviri invasion, with all the bad blood between them? Even if their governments did, do you think the soldiers would? Ulfirc would literally be asking his people to help protect their enemies.

 

And even if they did dispatch the armies to Cyrodiil, to battle the Dominion, and even if the soldiers did agree to it without a problem... Skyrim is still full of Loyalists who continued to support the Empire throughout. Ulfric taking over doesn't instantly mend the bridges in Skyrim, and the political turmoil of half the country supporting the Empire isn't just going to go away if Ulfric says "Ok, let's go kill some elves". And that's not touching on the Reachmen who were violently suppressed for trying to fight for THEIR freedom, the Dunmer who have balked under the 'generosity' of the Nords, or any Jarl, township or group that decides they'd be better off on their own.

 

 

 

No such indication exists in the Markarth Incident

 

After the war, contact was established and he has proven hsi worth as an asset. The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becomming generally uncooperative to direct contact. [/quote[

 

The Dominion is thus established to have been in contact with Ulfric prior to the Markarth Incident. Ulfric then did something which benefited the Dominion's agenda (and, as established, resulted in their ability to further destabilise Skyrim through a public Inquisition). Does it literally need to say "We told Ulfric that, if he killed some savages, maybe they'd give him his god back."?

 

 

 

Nor does the Empire, but Ulfric manages to scrounge enough people together to attack Whiterun where he didn´t have enough before.

 

Are you missing the part where Tullius infiltrated Stormcloak territory, ambushed Ulfric, captured him alive, and hauled him almost to the Cyrodiil border? The Civil War would have been all but ended had Alduin shown up 20 minutes late.

 

 

 

You claim to know more about Nord tradition than someone who has studied with the Greybeards?! He might not agree with their whole pacifism and use of Thuum, nevertheless that is simply their creed, not put in stone Nord tradition. Tiber Septim opened a school for Thuum in Markarth, even if never came out of it, are you claiming he violated Nord tradition? Are you claiming Wulfharth violated Nord tradition?

 

First off, Tiber Septim was a lying jackass who manipulated just about everything to get his way. He lied about his origins, murdered his Emperor, killed both of the beings who hauled his ass to prominence, and forced an abortion on an 18 year old girl. He didn't give two tits about Traddition, all he cared about was power.

 

Second, Ulfric picks and chooses what generation of traditions he wants, to suit the argument he makes. Using the Thu'um in a duel? I'll ignore 5,000 years of Tradition. Using the Moot to pick a king? I'll ignore 4000 years of tradition. We want to worship our gods? I'll ignore... well, ALL traditions and pick a Cyrodiilic god instead. The people of Skyrim don't even call their pantheon by the right names, forr Vehk's sake!

 

And even Wulfhearth obeyed the Greybeards in not using the Thu'um for his own glory.

 

 

 

Yes, it will.

 

You seem to think nothing noteworthy ever passes in Tamriel without Imperial authority. While it's true the Empire has been around in one form or another for several eras, there's nothing that says it has to continually be the perpetual leader of all mankind. The "Imperial approach" worked for the writers for a long time, but don't make the mistake of thinking that's all they know.

 

You're missing the part where the peoples of Tamriel have NEVER rallied together behind anyone but an Empire of Cyrodiil. There have been a few alliances here and there, but the Empires are the only ones who have ever managed to bring everyone together, even if only for short-term objectives.

 

 

As I've said before, I think the whole right or wrong aspect of the Stormcloak rebellion comes down to whether the player can stomach Ulfric's personality.

 

I don't like certain aspects of Ulfric's personality, but I do see him as driven enough and competent enough to not only lead Skyrim into the future but also to prepare for the upcoming round of warfare with the AD (which the lore seems to indicate as inevitable).

 

And i disagree. A single leader cannot overcome a raft of bad decisions simply through strength of character (which, frankly, Ulfric lacks). He is a demagogue who has proven himself a hypocrite, and what's worse, his ability to confront the real enemy is based entirely on them not absolutely destroying his credibility. Ulfric thinks he gave up information that caused the fall of the Imperial City. He has been in contact with the Dominion even AFTER the war ended. Do you really think the Thalmor aren't going to let THAT bit of information slip? Even if Skyrim breaking from the Empire was good for it, Ulfric is a political liability to his own nation. And that's assuming he isn't suffering from some deeper psychological issues regarding his time under Elenwyn's torture. Vehk forbid he suffers from any kind of Stockholm syndrome.

 

 

From what we know of Mede, I just don't think there is enough mettle to that man's character that the Nords can respect him the same way they could Tiber; and if Nords can't respect someone, it's downhill battle to get them to follow him or her.

 

Mede deceived the Dominion for a full year, and then either led the charge to retake the Imperial City, or constructed the plan to have the Hero impersonate him in order to rally the troops. He then dispatched said Hero to Hammerfell to assist with the resistance there, and when we meet him in Skyrim, he stands there and takes his death without so much as an attempted bribe.

 

 

 

On other matters, some seem to totally discredit the Empire in favor of the Stormcloaks. I believe the Empire is better prepared for the inevitable war against the AD, than Ulfric who will need more time 'rebuilding' Skyrim and gaining more alliances.

 

We know that's the case. The Empire says it, with Tullius and Rikke noting that the Civil War is a sideshow for their superiors in the Imperial City, who are more focused on the Dominion. And one of the Legates tells us that the majority of the Legions are sitting on the Dominion Border, just waiting for the order. Hell, they don't even have a proper Legion in Skyrim, but are recruiting and training locally.

 

And even Ulfric admits it. He won't move against the Emperor, even though the old man's in Skyrim, because he knows that if the full might of the Empire came down on them, the Stormcloaks would be ended.

 

We know full well that the Empire is both stronger than the Stormcloaks, and is more focused on the coming war with the Dominion. All the Civil War does is take resources away from that effort, which is directly counter to Ulfric's stated goals of fighting the Dominion.

 

Which is, it's self, just more evidence that he is unfit for his position.

[LeddBate]

Odahviing: "Well, I hope you're happy now. The longest, most drawn out, argued over thread ever. Even Lachdonin is back. Lachdonin, whom I believe swore off this thread some time ago. Do you realize what you've started? What you've created? Faal tinvaak nis dinok! The thread that Will Not Die!"

 

Me: "But, but, I just wanted to talk about my experiences. I never meant to create a monster."

 

Odahviing: "I'm sure Doctor Frankenstein said pretty much the same thing."

 

Me: "Who?"

 

Odahviing: *sigh* "Nevermind... Friggin' Dragonbreaks..."