Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[MidbossVyers]

Saying that the Stormcloaks cannot defeat the Dominion is like saying Vietnam cannot defeat the US or that the colonies that would eventually become the US cannot defeat the British Empire.

[Lachdonin]

Odahviing: Even Lachdonin is back. Lachdonin, whom I believe swore off this thread some time ago.

Heh... I swear off lots of things that I don't really manage to give up. Coffee. Redheads. Stardew Valley...

 

Actually had a discussion elsewhere a little while back about how we thought the Civil War questline should have been done, which made me think of checking in here... Should have known better than to dig up old flames..

[Lachdonin]

Saying that the Stormcloaks cannot defeat the Dominion is like saying Vietnam cannot defeat the US or that the colonies that would eventually become the US cannot defeat the British Empire.

Except, that was only pertaining to combat on their own land. Vietnam could never have successfully invaded the US, nor could the colonials have ever sucessfully invaded England.

 

And for the record, the in both situations, victory came from outside sources. Vietnam had the support of China, and the Colonies only won because England withdrew most of its forces to deal.with conflict in Europe. Both would have resulted in a home front loss were it not for other major powers.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Lachdonin

[MidbossVyers]

The Dragonborn is so godlike and ultimately uncontrollable that he or she is literally an outside source and/or major power all by his or her lonesome. By the way, at the risk of digression, remember when I sent you on that little YouTube trip to see that Legion fanatic who insisted that Ulfric was a Thalmor agent, as opposed to just an unwilling or even willing asset? Whatever happened to that? You know the one who insisted that psychological torture wasn't "real"?

[LeddBate]

Odahviing: "Speaking of 'psychological torture'." 'Looks at me...'

 

Me: "Ah, shaddup..."

[Lachdonin]

The Dragonborn is so godlike and ultimately uncontrollable that he or she is literally an outside source and/or major power all by his or her lonesome.

The Dragonborn is an non-factor, because he's not going to be around. Even if they were, theres no guarantee that they would help oppose the Dominion. Hell, you can befriend the head of the Justicars in Skyrim.

 

By the way, at the risk of digression, remember when I sent you on that little YouTube trip to see that Legion fanatic who insisted that Ulfric was a Thalmor agent, as opposed to just an unwilling or even willing asset? Whatever happened to that? You know the one who insisted that psychological torture wasn't "real"?

Haven't gotten any messages about it lately. I think he ksut kinda gave up being wrong.

[MidbossVyers]

Weren't we talking about what the Stormcloaks will do if they win the Civil War? That only happens if the Dragonborn joins them, at least until Civil War's end. Similarly, if you are referring to Ondolemar, you can only become his friend by joining the Legion or staying neutral. Joining the Stormcloaks gets him killed. I did mention that the Dragonborn is ultimately uncontrollable. The French helped the revolutionaries defeat the British Empire but that deep of a friendship wasn't exactly maintained, despite being extremely helpful at the time.

[Lachdonin]

Weren't we talking about what the Stormcloaks will do if they win the Civil War?

I think it was a bit deeper than just that. It's more bout the potential problems with what they COULD try to do of they were victorious.

[khyloskye]

 

You're missing the part where the peoples of Tamriel have NEVER rallied together behind anyone but an Empire of Cyrodiil. There have been a few alliances here and there, but the Empires are the only ones who have ever managed to bring everyone together, even if only for short-term objectives.

 

 

 

I didn't miss that part, I dismissed it. Saying something can never happen because it never has is not a great argument.

[monganfinn]

I won't trust the Silverbloods to run any Hold.

Why not? That they are corrupt can´t bother you obviously if you have little problem with Maven or Siddgeir.

 

The combination of Elisif and her court members is enough to rule Haafingar.

No, the court members are enough to rule Haafingar. Elisif is superfluous.

 

Ulfric even allows her to keep her position if the Stormcloaks take Solitude and she submits.

A confusing political masterstroke (from that populist oaf!) apparently as it is called ingame, not because she is that good at managing the jarldom.

 

No further discontent is evident after Movarth's secret uprising is resolved (assuming it was resolved before the Civil War ends in favor of the Stormcloaks) and very little is shown after that one-time rally. The people of Hjaalmarch seems stalwart enough to get on with their lives whoever rules them. Personally, I'd trust Iddgrod more than the other Jarl.

No further discontent than the one scripted scene, and nearly every dialogue tree in the city. How many other instances can you cite where the citizen crowd together before the jarl´s house and express their anger? How many other cities can you cite which are nearly taken over by vamps?

 

I doubt her 'visions' getting out of control is a permanent thing.

She had those visions since forever and her family too, and the boy has the same problem of not knowing who people are or when in time he is.

 

I can't trust either Siddgeir or Dengeir completely, but the steward is efficient enough and the rest of Falkreath are mostly good people.

And Tekla is a worse steward because??? Otherwise you could support the cloaks in Falkreath too.

 

Brina, she never said she's loyal to Skald; she's loyal to Dawnstar.

Which just means she betrays her lord. Again you cannot walk around in the uniform of the rulers enemy and expect to get off scoff free.

 

The warring factions are pretty much even until the PC decides which to join, showing that Ulfric isn't getting the default vote just because he's a Nord and 'Skyrim (supposedly) belongs to the Nords'.

The cloaks´ support grows though, that´s why they can suddenly launch an attack on Whiterun. This just shows that at the beginning of the game the rebellion was still quite young and small.

 

Also, the Thalmor are more concerned about an Imperial victory than a Stormcloak victory

No indication for this thesis.

 

Still, you'd think it wouldn't be so easy to send mercenaries back and forth Hammerfell and Skyrim if the AD troops/enforcers are that sufficient between the provinces.

The Thalmor do not control the roads of Skyrim, nor Hammerfell. Nor can the Thalmor officially hunt down visitors to Skyrim.

 

Just a thought. Kematu's group were supposedly there to capture someone who sold Taneth to the AD; why would they not care about these Alik'r? They're basically enemies.

They don´t make any move to pick up Saadia either, who is supposedly an ally. Also Whiterun is kinda neutral, they even have Heimskr breaking the concordat. And no small thalmor patrol could defeat Kematu´s group. The AD has no standing army in Skyrim just some diplomats, justiciars and guards. Enough to hunt heretics but not enough to hunt down a mercenary group.

 

I also still doubt that Hammerfell is that bitter towards the Empire to not consider rejoining them.

Why would they rejoin after being thrown out and to the dogs of the AD? No independent state would just keel over and join an Empire without some serious pressure.

 

They maintain a presence in Hammerfell. All they did was withdraw military occupation.

Source for this? Legends? Either way it just means that Hammerfell is in a similar state as the Empire, in no way worse off.

 

Different kinds of deserts. Hammerfell was called the Deathlands for a reason

The Khajiit to my knowledge never even tried to live in Hammerfell. Nevertheless the AD forces, the Legion etc are all able to operate in Hammerfell and the Rourken weren´t the first inhabitants of Hammerfell: Nede and IMO even some Orcs live there too before the Redguards. So to say the Redguards had absolute home terrain advantage and no other faction could compare to them when fighting in Hammerfell is farfetched.

 

In fact, we STILL don't really know how strong the Dominion remained after the Red Ring, and thus are largely unable to judge whether or not it would have been suicide on the part of the Empire.

Indeed we do not know, the inverse could also very well hold true considering that High Rock hadn´t even been touched by war yet.

 

while we were spying on you

If the Thalmor would have been in Markarth incognito the bard would not have pointed them out so easily. The text makes it likely that they were there in a quite official function. The whole point however was that the Thalmor had agents in Skyrim even before the Markarth Incident.

 

they are willing to go to much further lengths to prevent an Imperial victory than a Stormcloak one.

How so? During the quests itself they never appear. They need to help Ulfric more than Tullius simply because the cloaks are the weaker faction not because they want them to win more than they want the Empire to win.

 

willing to risk direct intervention to ensure the Empire doesn't win

And just because they never stated they would do the same for Tullius doesn´t mean they wouldn´t.

 

Dominion Ambassador herself tried to intervene to keep Ulfric alive.

Yes, so? As you wrote it was disguised as a prisoner exchange. It´s not like they stormed Helgen spells blazing and shouted "run away Ulfric". The Thalmor risked nothing but bad rep when Ulfric "escaped". They threw away nothing at all.

 

are more controllable, and slightly more competent.

Controllable indeed. I´m sure you would want your state governors to be someone else´s paid monkeys. The Empire rules the western holds through money.

 

Dengier was forced to step down because of concerns about his mental health

Meaning he supported Ulfric instead of Elisif and the thanes wanted none of that.

 

behaviour of the character is very indicative of the early stages of Alzheimer's

Aye, sure. Remembering that that old gravestone over there belongs to some century old ancestor, telling you to kill him, and not trusting people closest to you (but still remembering their names) means someone has Alzheimer, in a world where we do not even know if Alzheimer exists. The others of the court don´t even say he had mental problems just that his health degenerated - that could mean everything!! from failing bowels to cancer.

"But I was encouraged to step down when I took sides with the Stormcloaks." His mental illness probably manifested in exactly that moment, wasn´t a problem before or what?

"For one thing, I won't empty Falkreath's coffers to buy myself fine clothes an' expensive mead. For another, I won't get mixed up with criminals and other sorts who take advantage of the honest folk for profit. I might be old, but I haven't forgotten that a Jarl's first duty is to look after his people."

-a really terrible jarl that one.

 

Ulfirc would literally be asking his people to help protect their enemies.

Ebonheart Pact, again. Dunmer, Argonians, Nord had far older and deeper enmities than the Nords and Cyrodiil after the Civil War.

 

Ulfric taking over doesn't instantly mend the bridges in Skyrim,

And Elisif taking over half the country does?!

 

And that's not touching on the Reachmen who were violently suppressed for trying to fight for THEIR freedom, the Dunmer who have balked under the 'generosity' of the Nords, or any Jarl, township or group that decides they'd be better off on their own.

The only Dunmer who have a problem with how they live in Skyrim are those of Windhelm and those who became bandits. And not even all of those from Windhelm have a problem with how things are. The Forsworn problem is a moot point, nothing changes on that front no matter who rules Skyrim.

 

"We told Ulfric that, if he killed some savages, maybe they'd give him his god back."?

Yes, because the wording "contact was established" could mean absolutely everything. I´m not saying he isn´t being manipulated, nor saying that he wasn´t given the idea by the Thalmor (though no one can prove that with the info we have) but to say he was "prompted" is too much.

 

Are you missing the part where Tullius infiltrated Stormcloak territory, ambushed Ulfric, captured him alive, and hauled him almost to the Cyrodiil border? The Civil War would have been all but ended had Alduin shown up 20 minutes late.

And that is relevant to the question of how many troops Ulfric could field because??? As you well know the cloaks have troops all over the west as well. Skyrim is big land in the lore, no faction can patrol every nook and cranny. I never doubted the Empire had the better spies, not with Maven in their pocket.

 

And even Wulfhearth obeyed the Greybeards in not using the Thu'um for his own glory.

And the Ash King had great success with that, didn´t he? Furthermore Wulfharth used the thuum in battle without scruples. He even used it for damned Hjalti.

 

First off, Tiber Septim was a lying jackass who manipulated just about everything to get his way. He lied about his origins, murdered his Emperor, killed both of the beings who hauled his ass to prominence, and forced an abortion on an 18 year old girl. He didn't give two tits about Traddition, all he cared about was power.

So what? There is still no one ingame/lore who claims Hjalti violated Nordic tradition by opening that damned school! That he is an as***** has nothing to do with that.

 

You're missing the part where the peoples of Tamriel have NEVER rallied together behind anyone but an Empire of Cyrodiil. There have been a few alliances here and there, but the Empires are the only ones who have ever managed to bring everyone together, even if only for short-term objectives

Duh, naturally. The Empire after all didn´t have to parley, they could just order. Though neither the Reman nor Alessian Empire ever united all of Tamriel either. It takes a God Robot to do that. To say an Empire is necessary for ALL people to come together peacefully - is probably correct. But we don´t want all people to work together, just enough to defeat the AD.

 

A single leader cannot overcome a raft of bad decisions

Like the whole Mede line who can´t seem to keep their provinces from running away from them, let people invade their capital city, let the Blades agents get slaughtered, let foreign agents spy on them, rebuff a peace treaty without knowing the enemies strength, fight a costly war, then sell the trust their few remaining allies have for them and then are surprised when those allies let them fall ...

Oh, wait you were talking about Ulfric.

 

He has been in contact with the Dominion even AFTER the war ended.

As was everyone who was at Elisif´s parties. Wait! The AD could destroy the Dragonborn´s fame too!

 

Ulfric is a political liability to his own nation.

As if military propaganda needs to be real to be believed by people.

 

Stockholm syndrome

What?!!! Perhaps he is also a sleeper agent out to kill all the jarls when they vote for him in the moot, or that the next Emperor was actually brainwashed by the AD into giving up his throne to them, or that Titus Mede was actually a AD sleeper agent all along and only started the war because he needed to bleed the Legions dry before being able to sign the concordat without his soldiers killing him - no those theory have all already been discredited because THERE`S NO BASIS!!!

 

to have the Hero impersonate him in order to rally the troops

So he didn´t even do it himself!? That craven! There were two good things about him and you just ruined one of them for me.

 

Hell, they don't even have a proper Legion in Skyrim, but are recruiting and training locally.

Srsly? This has been discussed to death between the two of us. They have 9 damned legions in Skyrim, 9 legates = 9 legions! The Legion = entirety of the x legions the Empire can field. Apart from the example of the roman legions we have no indication that the Empire doesn´t always train and recruit locally, in a nation where until recently the people where mostly supporters of the Empire it makes a lot of sense to have guards from the same ethnicity as the people they control. Trained locally? -the damned Battlespire is destroyed do you really think non officers would be shipped over to Cyrodiil for their training and then back again for their assignment?!!

 

And even Ulfric admits it. He won't move against the Emperor, even though the old man's in Skyrim, because he knows that if the full might of the Empire came down on them, the Stormcloaks would be ended.

Yes, the cloaks also didn´t have enough troops to lay siege to Whiterun until later in the game. When a nation prepares 25 years for a war one would think they have an impressive amount of battle capacity. the question is, if they have enough, would they use it? Well not under Titus Mede, he said so himself that he doesn´t want to wage another war himself.

 

Which is, it's self, just more evidence that he is unfit for his position.

No it´s not because how suited he is to the position has little to do with how prepared the Empire is for the AD nor if his means to make himself High King contradict his selling point. You yourself claim that he only wants the power, in the moments where you don´t think that he has stockholm syndrome, you can´t make him capable enough to fool the people yet too dumb for the position.