Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Caerulean]

You seem to keep picking on specifics and putting words into mouths, then you miss or disregard the rest of what we mean to say. @_@ I know my English is not great, but come on! xD

 

- I never said I have little problem with Maven. I shrugged Siddgeir off.

- I still think Maven and/or Siddgeir can run a Hold better than Thonar who got a lot of people killed, both allies and enemies, because of a big decision he thought would be best for 'his' city, which was to keep Madanach alive.

- Never said Tekla is a bad/terrible steward, just that Nenya seems a really efficient one.

- I still believe that Haafingar's court works best as it is now. Elisif, Falk, Bryling, Erikur, and Sybille all have their personal tendencies and biases which work well together.

- Never said Idgrod's visions are temporary. I said her visions 'getting out of control' is temporary.

- I also insinuated that the discontent in Morthal is temporary, not only because of the lack of indications in-game but because I believe the folk of Morthal are persistent enough to carry on with their lives. Idgrod remains loyal to her people despite being disliked; better than a jarl who's only in it for personal gain.

- I said why can't the AD, not the Thalmor, have hindered Hammerfell mercenaries?

- Brina didn't 'betray' Skald and made no 'traitorous' moves. All that happened was she became the Imperial Jarl of Dawnstar IIRC.

 

(Please don't consider this as singling you out. :smile: I know much less than most of you all, but after having read/skimmed through discussions online, there are still more indications that an Imperial victory is better than a Stormcloak one.)

Edited December 23, 2016 by Caerulean

[Padre86]

 

Saying that the Stormcloaks cannot defeat the Dominion is like saying Vietnam cannot defeat the US or that the colonies that would eventually become the US cannot defeat the British Empire.

Except, that was only pertaining to combat on their own land. Vietnam could never have successfully invaded the US, nor could the colonials have ever sucessfully invaded England.

 

And for the record, the in both situations, victory came from outside sources. Vietnam had the support of China, and the Colonies only won because England withdrew most of its forces to deal.with conflict in Europe. Both would have resulted in a home front loss were it not for other major powers.

 

 

I believe in the comparison you quoted, the original poster was comparing the Nords to Vietnam, in that it is expected at some point that the AD would try to attack and invade Skyrim and not the other way around.

 

Also, your speculation that Vietnam or the American colonies would have lost without outside support is just that....speculation. And to be fair to the North Vietnamese, while they did receive material support from China and Russia, most of the decisive battles were fought by Vietnamese troops, not by intervening Russians or Chinese.

[Padre86]

 

Yes, the Thalmor want a prolonged war, but they are willing to go to much further lengths to prevent an Imperial victory than a Stormcloak one. The concern of a Stormcloak victory is almost treated as a footnote, while they make it very clear that they are willing to risk direct intervention to ensure the Empire doesn't win.

 

Since you brought up cut content, the intro in Helgen makes the nature of that intervention very clear. Elenwyn demands custody of Ulfric, Tullius tells her to shove off, and she threatens him. It was likely cut for 2 reasons; 1, it directly contradicts what Ralof had just said about the Elves being behind things, and 2; its really, really poorly acted. Like, Oblivion bad. But the point it, when combined with the information in the dossier, it's clear that the Dominion Ambassador herself tried to intervene to keep Ulfric alive. This wasn't some attempt to stage a breakout, this was a high-profile prisoner exchange (that would likely have ended with an 'accident' and Ulfric escaping).

 

 

 

 

WTF? You're reading way too much into the intro. The AD wanted Ulfric to be kept alive, no doubt. But where are you getting all of this junk about the AD freeing Ulfric?

[Brandiibuck]

I can't say much without spoiling anything, but I don't believe that either side is able to defeat the Aldmeri Dominion. They already defeated the Empire, and the Stormcloaks very much underestimate them. Both sides would have to settle their differences and come to some kind of peace agreement, at least a temporary one.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who know more than I do about this topic, but I've spent more time than is probably healthy debating this topic myself, and this is the conclusion I came to. There are valid reasons to support the Stormcloaks, and there are valid reasons to support the Empire. I consider myself to be a pacifist, so naturally, I prefer peace. That's just me.

As long as you don't kill Paarthurnax, idgaf. There's no valid reason to kill Paarthurnax. But that's another topic.

 

[Lachdonin]

Also, the Thalmor are more concerned about an Imperial victory than a Stormcloak victory

No indication for this thesis.

 

 

 

The incident at Helgen is an example of where exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial Victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. ... A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed

 

The primary focus of the statement is the need to keep the Stormcloaks on relatively even footing with the Empire. No mention anywhere of similar support for the Empire is made. The Dominion is willing to aid the Stormcloaks, going so far as to attempt to intervene in his execution, but make no mention of raising a finger on the opposite side.

 

 

They maintain a presence in Hammerfell. All they did was withdraw military occupation.

Source for this? Legends? Either way it just means that Hammerfell is in a similar state as the Empire, in no way worse off.

 

The continued Dominion presence in Hammerfell is the only consistency between both Kematu and Saadia's stories. And no, they wouldn't be worse off (though we are told that the southern territories in Hammerfell have been devastated by the war) but it shows that their extra 5 years of war netted them basically nothing. They're still subject to a Dominion presence, and the only thing they really got back was direct control of a few cities.

 

 

Different kinds of deserts. Hammerfell was called the Deathlands for a reason

The Khajiit to my knowledge never even tried to live in Hammerfell. Nevertheless the AD forces, the Legion etc are all able to operate in Hammerfell and the Rourken weren´t the first inhabitants of Hammerfell: Nede and IMO even some Orcs live there too before the Redguards. So to say the Redguards had absolute home terrain advantage and no other faction could compare to them when fighting in Hammerfell is farfetched.

 

The pre-Ra Gada 'races' of Hammerfell were supposed to consist of Beast Folk (typically referring to Khajiit, Imga, maybe Satyrs if they still exist) Nedes and Orc-kin, though they lived hard lives on the oustide of the wider cultures.

 

The Rourken were the first people to solidly establish themselves there, and the Redguards were the first to thrive. And thrive is the optimal part here. Others ran to Hammerfell to escape, and some managed to survive, but the Redguard's prospered. Their dominance of the region was so great that Tiber Septim had to wait for them to turn against each other to have a chance, and even then he barely managed to control the province.

 

 

 

In fact, we STILL don't really know how strong the Dominion remained after the Red Ring, and thus are largely unable to judge whether or not it would have been suicide on the part of the Empire.

Indeed we do not know, the inverse could also very well hold true considering that High Rock hadn´t even been touched by war yet.

 

So, you think it's reasonable to make a major military and political decision on optimism alone? The Empire knew that the Dominion's holding hadn't been touched. It knew it had drawn resources from 3/4 of it's remaining (useful) territories, and 2 of those had been heavily ransacked by the enemy throughout the 5 year conflict. Gambling on nothing but a hope and a prayer may have worked, yes, but that doesn't make it a good decision.

 

 

 

while we were spying on you

If the Thalmor would have been in Markarth incognito the bard would not have pointed them out so easily. The text makes it likely that they were there in a quite official function. The whole point however was that the Thalmor had agents in Skyrim even before the Markarth Incident.

 

Yes, the Thalmor would have been around in an official function. But there's a difference between a diplomatic embassy operating in an area and covertly spying (which, throughout most of history, was an assumed with any sort of embassy) and them being able to arrest people in the streets. The Dominion couldn't turn those spies into tangible leverage without admitting they were spying, which meant their ability to crack down on Talos worship was impaired by the illicit means of garnering information.

 

Enter Ulfric, who publicly makes a scene about Talos worship, calling direct attention to the issue and giving the Dominion the means to leverage greater presence. It's really not that complicated.

 

 

they are willing to go to much further lengths to prevent an Imperial victory than a Stormcloak one.

How so? During the quests itself they never appear. They need to help Ulfric more than Tullius simply because the cloaks are the weaker faction not because they want them to win more than they want the Empire to win.

 

We see them try to intervene in Ulfric's execution. No such effort is made ANYWHERE on behalf of the Empire, for any reason. They even go so far as to try to undermine peace negotiations while there's a Dragon-God trying to end the world. There's also the issue of the weapons being smuggled through Blackmarsh. While the Argonians could be making them, they've never had an established history of manufacturing Elven goods, indicating they might be an intermediary.

 

 

willing to risk direct intervention to ensure the Empire doesn't win

And just because they never stated they would do the same for Tullius doesn´t mean they wouldn´t.

 

Ah, the good old 'Just because there's no evidence for it doesn't mean it's not true' argument. We SEE them try to intervene on Ulfric's behalf. We are told that they are willing to. There is no evidence, anywhere, to say they are willing to do the same for Tullius, Rikke, Elesyf or any other Imperial supporter.

 

 

Dominion Ambassador herself tried to intervene to keep Ulfric alive.

Yes, so? As you wrote it was disguised as a prisoner exchange. It´s not like they stormed Helgen spells blazing and shouted "run away Ulfric". The Thalmor risked nothing but bad rep when Ulfric "escaped". They threw away nothing at all.

 

You don't think that having National-Enemy-#1 escape under their watch would politically hurt the Dominion's position? Particularly with dozens of witnesses indicating the Empire was moments away from ending Ulfric and crippling his rebellion? That's the sort of political foul-up that gets your party stripped of the authority for prisoner exchange, and gets people like Elenwyn fired.

 

 

 

are more controllable, and slightly more competent.

Controllable indeed. I´m sure you would want your state governors to be someone else´s paid monkeys. The Empire rules the western holds through money.

 

That's better than not HAVING control. Layla doesn't control her own Hold. Korir is loyal only to himself. Dengier is in a mental decline. Thongvor doesn't even control his families own purse strings (and seems totally ignorant of the fact his own brother is the one inciting the Foresworn in the city).

 

 

behaviour of the character is very indicative of the early stages of Alzheimer's

Aye, sure. Remembering that that old gravestone over there belongs to some century old ancestor, telling you to kill him, and not trusting people closest to you (but still remembering their names) means someone has Alzheimer, in a world where we do not even know if Alzheimer exists. The others of the court don´t even say he had mental problems just that his health degenerated - that could mean everything!! from failing bowels to cancer.

 

You've clearly never dealt with it, and i sincerely hope you, nor your loved ones, ever have to. That said, Alzheimer's isn't just forgetfulness. It's not just about forgetting names (and, in many cases, you don't forget names, you forget the faces that go with them). It's wholesale mental degradation, and often begins with a fixation on past events and deep suspicion of those around you. We know mental illness exists in Tamriel, and it's got an entire Deity dedicated to it's manifestation. Between his suspicion of those around him, his beratement of his caregiver, and his (admittedly single) moodswing with his brother, Dengeir's symptoms are pretty obvious.

 

Siddgeir is a little s***, but he MAY get better over time. Dengeir will only get worse.

 

 

Ulfirc would literally be asking his people to help protect their enemies.

Ebonheart Pact, again. Dunmer, Argonians, Nord had far older and deeper enmities than the Nords and Cyrodiil after the Civil War.

 

And, again, with the exception of the Dunmer, whose LITERAL GODS told them to do it, only a small portion of the Nords and Argonians joined the Pact. And even with the Dunmer, more than half the Houses refused to fight alongside their new 'allies'.

 

The Ebonheart Pact really isn't a good example here.

 

 

Ulfric taking over doesn't instantly mend the bridges in Skyrim,

And Elisif taking over half the country does?!

 

Absolutely not. But it gives guaranteed support, and means that in the event of wider conflict, you know your standing forces will fight alongside potential allies. There are more hurdles between the Stormcloaks and supporting the Empire than there are with Pro-Imperial Nords doing so.

 

 

And that's not touching on the Reachmen who were violently suppressed for trying to fight for THEIR freedom, the Dunmer who have balked under the 'generosity' of the Nords, or any Jarl, township or group that decides they'd be better off on their own.

The only Dunmer who have a problem with how they live in Skyrim are those of Windhelm and those who became bandits. And not even all of those from Windhelm have a problem with how things are. The Forsworn problem is a moot point, nothing changes on that front no matter who rules Skyrim.

 

But these problems are being dealt with ALONE. And that's the issue.

 

 

 

"We told Ulfric that, if he killed some savages, maybe they'd give him his god back."?

Yes, because the wording "contact was established" could mean absolutely everything. I´m not saying he isn´t being manipulated, nor saying that he wasn´t given the idea by the Thalmor (though no one can prove that with the info we have) but to say he was "prompted" is too much.

 

To Prompt is a rather wide range idea, but fair, it does convey a degree of directness.

 

 

A single leader cannot overcome a raft of bad decisions

Like the whole Mede line who can´t seem to keep their provinces from running away from them, let people invade their capital city, let the Blades agents get slaughtered, let foreign agents spy on them, rebuff a peace treaty without knowing the enemies strength, fight a costly war, then sell the trust their few remaining allies have for them and then are surprised when those allies let them fall ...

Oh, wait you were talking about Ulfric.

 

Many of those bad decisions lie with Oncano, and Uriel VII. But yes, many bad decisions have been made over the last 250ish years. Making MORE of them doesn't help.

 

 

They have 9 damned legions in Skyrim, 9 legates = 9 legions! T

 

Poppycock. That would be more than half of ALL the known Legions in all of TES. Imperial Legion =/= Roman Legion. if it did, we'd be looking at between 45,000 and 60,000 Legion troops in Skyrim, which is absurd. That's more than half the population of one of the largest cities on the continent, and pushing the best estimates for the population of one of Skyrim's major holds.

 

The behaviour of the Legion, and the references they make regarding rank, also indicate that Legates operate on a far smaller scale, more akin with a modern company meaning their comparative rank would be between a Captain and a Major. Which would put them more on the scale of a Roman Centurion.

 

 

And even Ulfric admits it. He won't move against the Emperor, even though the old man's in Skyrim, because he knows that if the full might of the Empire came down on them, the Stormcloaks would be ended.

Yes, the cloaks also didn´t have enough troops to lay siege to Whiterun until later in the game. When a nation prepares 25 years for a war one would think they have an impressive amount of battle capacity. the question is, if they have enough, would they use it? Well not under Titus Mede, he said so himself that he doesn´t want to wage another war himself.

 

Why would Mede commit his forces to a foreign war, when the current political climate in his own borders would see every would-be king, fuedal lord and rebel rise up when central oversight is off stomping through Dominion farms. The situation in Skyrim is a prime example of why the Empire hasn't, and won't, invade the Dominion. Mede lacks sufficient political support to ensure the Empire's stability while it's armies are present, let alone on foreign soil, and has no real ability to solidify his position (lacking, as he is, a giant stompy robot).

 

 

 

I didn't miss that part, I dismissed it. Saying something can never happen because it never has is not a great argument.

 

 

But an argument that something can happen, despite no historical precedence for it and no justification for it's occurrence beyond wishful thinking, is a far better one.

 

 

 

 

WTF? You're reading way too much into the intro. The AD wanted Ulfric to be kept alive, no doubt. But where are you getting all of this junk about the AD freeing Ulfric?

 

 

The Dominion views Ulfric as essential to the Stormcloak cause, and the Dossier makes it clear they they were willing to directly interfere to ensure he didn't die. We then see Elenwyn at Helgen, when the Empire is about to execute him. That alone is suspicious enough, but the cut content has her demanding custody, citing the Talos ban under the White Gold Concordant, and Tullius refusing. She then threatens to inform the Emperor of his treachery, before Tullius turns around and walks away.

 

Now, again, from what i've heard of the sound files, this was probably cut because it kinda sounded like crap. But the implication is pretty clear. The Dominion tried to take custody of Ulfric. Whether they had a Plan-B in case Tullius refused or not isn't clear, and the only indication is Elenwyn and some Justicars hanging out around Helgen after the opening sequence, but i personally think that's more a technical layover of having her there for the intro and not an indication of anything story related. Still, combined with the Dossier, it's pretty obvious that they were trying to prevent Ulfric from being executed. He does them no favours by being dead, or in jail, so the only reasonable assumption is that they planned for him to 'escape' after they took custody.

 

 

Also, your speculation that Vietnam or the American colonies would have lost without outside support is just that....speculation.

 

Not so much in the case of the American Revolution. The rebellion was practically over, before the English withdrew and left what basically amounted to cleanup in the hands of Hessian mercenaries. This only served to galvanise support for a failing rebellion, as the Germans drank and looted, culminating in the Crossing of the Delaware and a resurgence of Washington's rebels (against a bunch of drunk mercs who barely put up a fight). Had England not been forced to commit it's own military elsewhere, the rebels would have lost.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Lachdonin

[LeddBate]

Remember that Ralof mentions that Ulfric and his bodyguards were ambushed at Darkwater Crossing. Yet when you wake up on the cart as a prisoner with the Stormcloaks, the wagons seem to be heading directly away from the Pale Pass gate (and Cyrodil) and towards Helgen. I've speculated that Elenwyn got word of Ulfric's capture and decided to roll the dice and put a significant number of her Justicars at the gate to attempt to force a prisoner surrender/transfer. Tullius got wind of it and turned the wagons around for Helgen, probably while leaving behind a rear-guard to prevent the Justicars from overtaking them. He also sent a rider ahead to Helgen to warn the Imperial garrison there what was coming and what he wanted done. Which was to execute Ulfric since he couldn't safely get him across the border into Cyrodil. Elenwyn realized what was happening and rode hard to Helgen with only a small escort (in order to by-pass the rearguard I mentioned) and the rest you see in the opening sequence.

 

Yes, it's all just speculation on my part. But when you add the bits of evidence and backstory, along with the cut content Lachdonin mentions to what Ralof says, I think it's a very likely that the scenario played out that way.

[Moksha8088]

Regarding Jarl Siddgeir of Falkreath, most likely he will sloth off his security briefings and spend his time rationalizing that his hands are of normal size. The worst part is his reliance on the Empire of Cyrodiil in usurping control from his trusted Uncle Dengeir. Former Jarl Dengeir had experience and Siddgeir was a wastrel, but once gold changed hands it was a done deal. He will probably rely on bandit raiders from Falkreath to Argonia as his most trusted advisors.

[monganfinn]

The primary focus of the statement is the need to keep the Stormcloaks on relatively even footing with the Empire. No mention anywhere of similar support for the Empire is made. The Dominion is willing to aid the Stormcloaks, going so far as to attempt to intervene in his execution, but make no mention of raising a finger on the opposite side.

Naturally, as the Legion is the greater military force there is little need to help them. But to conclude that the Thalmor would only try to prolong the war by helping the Cloaks and not help the Legion is a stretch and mere speculation. We know for a fact that the Thalmor want a continuing war, if they can help the Cloaks in secret why would they not also help the Legion to prolong the war? Your argument that they didn´t mentioned helping the Legion if they have problems doesn´t make any sense as the Thalmor could achieve this protracted war easily by helping both sides. They have no reason not to help the Legion!

The continued Dominion presence in Hammerfell is the only consistency between both Kematu and Saadia's stories.

That presence cannot be all that great nor powerful if Saadia had to flee to Skyrim of all places.

And no, they wouldn't be worse off (though we are told that the southern territories in Hammerfell have been devastated by the war)

as was Cyrodiil.

but it shows that their extra 5 years of war netted them basically nothing. They're still subject to a Dominion presence, and the only thing they really got back was direct control of a few cities.

Those 5 years of war brought them the south coast back and while they may have agents on their land it isn´t militarily occupied and thus hopefully for them they don´t have a new Falinesti, or Night of Green Fire in Sentinel.

Others ran to Hammerfell to escape

You mean like the Redguards who fled Yokuda?

but the Redguard's prospered

perhaps because they fled Yokuda in greater numbers than any other?

The Rourken were the first people to solidly establish themselves there

They were Dwemer, we would have little to no idea how successful they were

Tiber Septim had to wait for them to turn against each other to have a chance

Tiber in his pre CHIM state is overrated, he didn´t conquer Morrowind, he didn´t conquer the "depths" of the Black Marsh, which is for some reason understood as him never even really having had a hold on the province, and needed Big Stompy for the Elves. For all his fame he did surprisingly little.

We simply do not have enough information about how things played out back then and the political/military plots behind the official history. Furthermore, so what if old Tiber´s human legions wouldn´t have been able to fight against a combined Hammerfell? My argument was that as the Khajiit are also desert dwellers the AD shouldn´t have been so much on a backfoot simply because of the terrain of Hammerfell.

So, you think it's reasonable to make a major military and political decision on optimism alone? Gambling on nothing but a hope and a prayer may have worked, yes, but that doesn't make it a good decision.

And awaiting the inevitable internal strife is better?! The Hammerfell and Talos clauses were obviously meant to split apart the Empire and they ran into this trap with open eyes. The were fact that they haven´t waged a war in retribution after 25 years and are in the risk of losing a second province without anything obvious like an alliance with the Argonians or Dunmer to show for it simply shows that the Empire, as it is, is not able to hold itself together.

(which, throughout most of history, was an assumed with any sort of embassy)

You don´t say

Yes, the Thalmor would have been around in an official function. But there's a difference between a diplomatic embassy operating in an area and covertly spying and them being able to arrest people in the streets. The Dominion couldn't turn those spies into tangible leverage without admitting they were spying, which meant their ability to crack down on Talos worship was impaired by the illicit means of garnering information.

And yet they already did crack down on Talos worship, so either the local Jarls allowed and turned a blind eye to it (in some holds at least) or the Jarls were incapable of preventing illegal Thalmor hit squads to operate in their holds. Either way the local guards couldn´t have stopped the Thalmor as if they did they would have sheltered people who broke the White Gold Concordate and then they would have had the same situation as with Ulfric, only started by a commoner. Face it the Empire has shackled itself in its own fear, they cannot tell the Thalmor agents to mind their own business, and the Thalmor agents have no fear or hesitation to admit they are spying, resulting in them using their knowledge gained from spying very publically.

We see them try to intervene in Ulfric's execution.

No risk of the Cloaks winning at that point yet, so it only points at the Thalmor wanting to have the war continue and not them being more amiable to a cloak victory than an imperial one.

No such effort is made ANYWHERE on behalf of the Empire, for any reason.

The Empire has more resources and men, there hardly ever was any reason to help them. In the few last quests of the civil war the Thalmor did not interfere on either side.

They even go so far as to try to undermine peace negotiations while there's a Dragon-God trying to end the world.

How does that show them hoping for a cloak victory over an Imperial victory?

There's also the issue of the weapons being smuggled through Blackmarsh. While the Argonians could be making them, they've never had an established history of manufacturing Elven goods, indicating they might be an intermediary.

The Empire has more resources and men, they hardly need smuggled weapons, they can simply buy them from High Rock etc. The cloaks however needed the smuggled weapons.

There is no evidence, anywhere, to say they are willing to do the same for Tullius, Rikke, Elesyf or any other Imperial supporter.

There however is also no evidence that the Thalmor would help Uflric win, only that they would help him survive. Which fits perfectly with their stated intentions to prolong the civil war and have no clear winner. You however state that they would prefer a Cloak victory and actively work towards that goal, a theory wholly unsupported by the evidence we have.

You don't think that having National-Enemy-#1 escape under their watch would politically hurt the Dominion's position?

You think the AD cares about what the lesser races think of them?

That's the sort of political foul-up that gets your party stripped of the authority for prisoner exchange,

Yeah, the Legion is so authoritative with their prisoners, like with Thorald Greymane, where Tullius himself writes his own supporters to forget the guy, he cannot do anything for him because he is a Thalmor prisoner. The Empire has shown us no instance in the game where they actually stood up to the AD, not with Thorald, not with the peace negotiations, not with Ulfric in Markarth, not with their hunt of Talos worshippers across Skyrim.

and gets people like Elenwyn fired.

Elenwyn would get fired if she allows the war to end, not if she makes a good job at prolonging it. Well no, she would be the scapegoat.

That's better than not HAVING control.

There is no indication Dengeir is anything but simply paranoid, he too has control of his hold. Igmund also doesn´t have control of his hold, the younger Silver Blood brother is circumventing him as much as his older brother. Maven is a clear criminal, so according to your credo we should hand her control of the Rift to her because she has control enough to stuff her own pockets?! Korir is biased against mages but he too has control of his hold. Igrod however doesn´t have so much control, the player saves her from a vamp taking over the city and thus also quells the unrest of her people - it´s a truly wonderful control she has!

Siddgeir is a little s***, but he MAY get better over time.

So we should make our political decision based on unsupported optimism now?

Quote: "So, you think it's reasonable to make a major military and political decision on optimism alone?"

We know mental illness exists in Tamriel, and it's got an entire Deity dedicated to it's manifestation.

I am well aware of old Sheo, nevertheless please bring me a single instance of an Alzheimer patient on Tamriel. Furthermore if Beth had wanted to portray Dengeir as mad, they would have done it as they did with Narfi, and the guy in Solitude. Yes you are right I don´t have someone with Alzheimer in my family, I do have several old people however and can tell you that they don´t need a mental illness to have their quirks like paranoia of fire not being doused etc, not trusting new people etc. That´s a quite normal degradation of the mind. You are correct that Dengeir won´t get better, but as he is now he isn´t a threat to the hold, its people nor incapable of governing. According to your opinion we would also have to replace Titus Mede as he seems in quite a bout of depression, he´s old too and won´t get any better.

I srsly don´t want to make fun of, nor belittle, mental illnesses and my honest respect to those who live suffering because of it, but don´t you think it possible that you read things into the game that aren´t there because of your RL experiences?

The Ebonheart Pact really isn't a good example here.

It is because the Nord/Dunmer/Argonian enmity runs far deeper than the Nord/Redguard/Cyrodiil/Orc?(who fought with Wulfharth against the Dunmer!) enmity. The Ebonheart pact after all, while often cited because the Nords were part of it, had its counterpart in the Daggerfall Convenant. And either way those two alliances could at least hold their own against the AD from back then.

But it gives guaranteed support, and means that in the event of wider conflict, you know your standing forces will fight alongside potential allies. There are more hurdles between the Stormcloaks and supporting the Empire than there are with Pro-Imperial Nords doing so.

Doesn´t change that Skyrim would still be split which was the crux of your former argument, that the Nords under Elisif would support the Empire is clear without question, but you also argue that the in the case of a great alliance between the Nords and other factions against the AD, not all Nords would participate against the orders of Ulfric. Quote: Ulfric taking over doesn't instantly mend the bridges in Skyrim, So while Elisif guarantees some support, Ulfric could get the whole of Skyrim behind him. After all he is the High King that was elected by the Jarls and built up his support among the people. I´s not the pro empire people that would refuse helping the Empire, but Ulfric´s own lackeys. So what you are claiming is that Uflric has such little control over his own followers that he cannot explain to them why it´s a sensible thing to meet the Empire halfway for the future of Tamriel after he convinced them that he is the one that should lead? After all much of the Nord´s frustrations with the Empire is that they don´t feel respected, gaining independence and helping the Empire on their own terms gives them that self respect back. Either way, Ulfric could help the Empire with that half of Skyrim that had supported the Empire anyhow.

But these problems are being dealt with ALONE. And that's the issue.

I don´t exactly know what you mean with that ALONE, do you mean that Skyrim would have more trouble dealing with them after they succeeded from the Empire because they couldn´t draw on the resources and personal support from the Empire? If so I must question where that support was in the last 25 years, and even longer before that with the Dunmer. Neither of these problems is exactly new.

Making MORE of them doesn't help.

Too bad we don´t know if decisions are good or bad before they play out. The Empire, no matter who made those decisions, has a bit of a bad track record. Leaders who make lead their people with bad decisions are normally replaced with the hopes that something better will follow. That may or may not happen, but logic dictates that the Empire doesn´t suddenly become better.

Imperial Legion =/= Roman Legion

We had this discussion before and back then you didn´t have these concerns, and the book "The Great War" seems to disagree with you.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

Legate Justianus Quintius

I myself commanded the Tenth Legion in Hammerfell and Cyrodiil

The greatly outnumbered Imperial legions retreated across the Alik'r Desert in the now-famous March of Thirst.

Fresh legions from Skyrim

The Imperial Legions under General Decianus

Eighth Legion fought a desperate (and doomed) rearguard action on the walls of the city, Titus II broke out of the city to the north with his main army (his main army surely was more than a single legion if the 8th guarded the rear)

reinforcements marching south from Skyrim under General Jonna

In Hammerfell, General Decianus

discharged from the Legions

One army, with the legions from Hammerfell under General Decianus

The second army, largely of Nord legions under General Jonna

Two legions had been effectively eradicated

- a general leads the military in the province, we know from the description of the author that a legate commands the legion and not a general. As we have nine legates for nine holds in Skyrim this paints a clear picture, you may not believe it but please give me any other explanation of how the Imperial legion system works based on something ingame/lore. What we do not know is how large those legions are, they could be 6-5000 as they were in the roman prime, but in the years where the Roman Empire wasn´t doing so well they had smaller legions as well. And then we have the amount of people mentioned in Daggerfall content which make such numbers quite believable.

Mede lacks sufficient political support

which he gambled away with the White Gold Concordat

But an argument that something can happen, despite no historical precedence for it and no justification for it's occurrence beyond wishful thinking, is a far better one.

It has historical precedence, Daggerfall Convenant, Ebonheart Pact, Direnni-Nord Alliance against the Alessian Order, Cyrodiil slave rebels and Nords against Ayleid, the Nord supporting the Khajiit against the Bosmer etc

After all we aren´t talking of all the provinces standing up to the Dominion but just the four human once. You cannot argue that this is on the same scale as a Tamriel wide alliance, it´s humans vs elves and that happened before and will happen again. If Hoag Merkiller can argue the chieftains of Skyrim into going to High Rock to fight against the Alessians together with the High Elves than Ulfric can argue the Nords into fighting besides humans against Altmer.

He does them no favours by being dead, or in jail, so the only reasonable assumption is that they planned for him to 'escape' after they took custody.

Nobody is arguing this, what we argue is that you believe that they for some reason or other would rather have the Cloaks win than the Imperials, which we have no indication of.

Edited December 27, 2016 by monganfinn

[Padre86]

Regarding Jarl Siddgeir of Falkreath, most likely he will sloth off his security briefings and spend his time rationalizing that his hands are of normal size. The worst part is his reliance on the Empire of Cyrodiil in usurping control from his trusted Uncle Dengeir. Former Jarl Dengeir had experience and Siddgeir was a wastrel, but once gold changed hands it was a done deal. He will probably rely on bandit raiders from Falkreath to Argonia as his most trusted advisors.

 

I'm on another play through now (Nord Warrior, Companion, but no sides chosen in the Civil War yet) and I've got to say that quite a few of the Imperial supporters and Jarls just strike me as class A a$$holes.

 

Siddgeir of Falkreath is a waste of space who doesn't give a crap about his hold or his people and wants others to do his job while he relaxes in luxury.

 

The Battleborn family in Whiterun strike me as stuck-up, arrogant and elite-minded people who look down upon "traditional" Nords and give Fralia Greymane all kinds of grief for her accusations despite the fact they do know where her son was being kept by the Thalmor.

 

Jarl Igmund and his father of Markarth were too incompetent to maintain their rule of their hold without outside support (first Ulfric's support, then imperial support) and were all too ready to throw Ulfric under the bus when the AD threatened Reach after the Markarth incident. Moreover, Igmund seems entirely oblivious to the plight of his people at the hands of the foresworn and dragons.

 

EDIT: And to add to that, Jarl Elisif is hopelessly inexperienced and unprepared to rule her hold, much less the entire kingdom of Skyrim. Her opening dialogue where she tells a worried citizen of Dragonbridge that she'll send an entire legion to deal with problem Necromancers illustrates her inexperience. She basically relies on her steward to sanity-check her decisions, and it would be hard to imagine her as anything other than a weak, puppet-ruler once the Imperials win the Civil War. I'm not picking on her for being a woman, but of all the Jarls, she seems to be the one with the least Nordic qualities, as she has little in the way of political acumen, leadership traits or battlefield experience.

 

I'm not saying that all of the main NPC's and Jarls on the Stormcloak side are angels and all stars by comparison, but whoever said that the Imperial-aligned NPC's are at least more competent and more likable is living in a dream world. I detect quite a bit of arrogance and selfishness from many of the Imperial supporters, which given the threats many Nords are facing (dragons, bandits, Thalmor interrogations) is not easy to stomach when playing as traditional Nord. Honestly, the only Jarl I find truly likable is Jarl Balgruuf, and it's worth noting that he did everything he could to stay out of the Civil War until he was finally forced to take sides with the Imperials. If there were more Jarls like Balgruuf, maybe, just maybe, I could see a traditional Nord siding with the Empire. But as it stands, most of the other Imperial Jarls aren't nearly as likable as Balgruuf is, and Ulfric, though flawed in his own ways, offers a better message and cause for most Nords to take up.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Padre86

[LolcatHD]

Is F### them both a good choice.

 

Thats my only choice :D

how those it fakin sence that without mods you cannot lose the CIVEL WAR!!!