Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Lachdonin]

 

 

Hammerfell successfully repelled the Dominion on its own.

 

No, it did not. Hammerfell fought the Dominion to a standstill for 5 years before signing a treaty with them. They did not repell anything.

 

In fact, the most martially powerful race in all of Tamriel, with its own armies almost totally uncommitted to the conflict in Cyrodiil, was unable to drive a supposedly BEATEN enemy out of their OWN lands. These are the same people who sunk a CONTENANT, conquered Hammerfell as nothing hut a refugee population, actually managed to BEAT Tiber Septims armies, and who destroyed the freaking Iron City.

 

But sure, the Dominion were totally beaten and unable to defend themselves.

[Kraeten]

No, it did not. Hammerfell fought the Dominion to a standstill for 5 years before signing a treaty with them. They did not repell anything.

 

And after that treaty was signed, the Dominion withdrew from Hammerfell's shores. Quibble over verbiage if you like, the end result is the same.

 

But sure, the Dominion were totally beaten and unable to defend themselves.

 

I never said that. I would instead argue that with the main invasion force annihilated, the Dominion's military reach and strength had been weakened sufficiently that the Empire needn't submit to any demands. Invasion of the Summerset Isles would still be a venture that would require years of preparation.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Kraeten

[Lachdonin]

 

And after that treaty was signed, the Dominion withdrew from Hammerfell's shores. Quibble over verbiage if you like, the end result is the same.

No, it's not the same. Repell would ran that the Redguard drove the Dominion out militarily, not diplomatically. In fact, the clam of a wothdrawl is somewhat contested by Kematu's statement that there is an ongoing resistance against the Dominion in Hammerfell. Resistance implies that there is still a dominion presence there as well, even after the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai.

 

The simple fact is that the claim that he Dominion was beaten and all the Empire had to do was step up and invade cannot be substantiated. The Dominion's ability to continue Tue fight in Hammerfell for 5 years, effectively still waging a foreign war even after their sound defeat at Tue Battle of Tue Red Ring, clearly indicates that they had substantial fight left in them. Couple this with the still UNTOUCHED Alinor Navy, one of the most powerful fighting forces in Tamriel's history, and it's highly unlikely the Empire could have won with the forces that remained, let alone considering supply issues.

 

The Hammerfell issue is more proof that peace was the right choice, than it is that victory as possible.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Lachdonin

[Kraeten]

 

No, it's not the same. Repell would ran that the Redguard drove the Dominion out militarily, not diplomatically. In fact, the clam of a wothdrawl is somewhat contested by Kematu's statement that there is an ongoing resistance against the Dominion in Hammerfell.

 

Would the Dominion have agreed to the treaty without being bitterly resisted for five years? To completely ignore their military success in favor in favor of focusing on the treaty is pretty disingenuous. As for Kematu's statements, you're clearly misunderstanding the context. During the war with the Dominion, Taneth fell, after it was apparently betrayed from within. That was Sadia's work. Here's the dialogue in case you need a reminder.

 

"She sold the city out to the Aldmeri Dominion. Were it not for her betrayal, Taneth could have held its ground in the war. The other noble houses discovered her betrayal and she fled. They want her brought back alive. The resistance against the Dominion is alive and well in Hammerfell, and they want justice."

 

And again, I'm not arguing complete victory over the Dominion was possible. It's the Empire's submission to the Dominion's demands that I'm arguing was completely unnecessary. Given that the Summerset Isles hadn't been ravaged by war, an invasion so soon after the Great War would have failed. A bitter stand off reminiscent of our Cold War was probably inevitable.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Kraeten

[Lachdonin]

"She sold the city out to the Aldmeri Dominion. Were it not for her betrayal, Taneth could have held its ground in the war. The other noble houses discovered her betrayal and she fled. They want her brought back alive. The resistance against the Dominion is alive and well in Hammerfell, and they want justice."

There is no need fora resistance unless there is ongoing occupation, or at least influence. The fact that it still exists implies that the Dominion did not totally withdraw, and at least still have political influence in Hammerfell (potentially in the same way they have in the Empire).

 

And I am not saying that the Redguard did not fight back. They clearly did. But the failed to defeat a supposedly broken foe, in their own lands (which have been historically shunned by most because of its inhospitable nature) with fresh armies that had been largely untouched by the war in Cyrodiil. In fact, we are told that they relied extensively on the Legion forces discharged to protect Hammerfell before the Legion withdrew.

 

That the Redguard couldn't drive the Dominion out of Hammerfell is the important part here. It clearly indicates that the Dominion was still in good shape and able to maintain a foreign war, which is considerably more difficult to do that DEFEND against invasion. Had the Empire carried on, it would have been fighting against the clearly still capable Dominion forces, in their home territories, without proper supply. No part of that scenario works out well for the Empire.

[Kraeten]

There is no need fora resistance unless there is ongoing occupation, or at least influence. The fact that it still exists implies that the Dominion did not totally withdraw, and at least still have political influence in Hammerfell (potentially in the same way they have in the Empire).

 

Unless you're misunderstanding the context. Hammerfell's neighbors are under Dominion influence, which is in stark contrast to Hammerfell's defiance. More importantly, the fact that Sadia had to flee Hammerfell altogether goes a long way towards supporting the argument that the Dominion has no influence there. Or at least so little influence that they cannot protect their own agents...which is a far cry from the Empire's conduct.

 

Had the Empire carried on, it would have been fighting against the clearly still capable Dominion forces, in their home territories, without proper supply. No part of that scenario works out well for the Empire.

 

For the third time now, I'm not saying the Empire was so well off after the Great War that they could have taken the fight to the Summerset Isles. The Empire was however on enough solid ground that they could have refused to submit to the Dominion's demands. If Hammerfell can defy the Dominion for five years, the combined might of High Rock, Skyrim and Cyrodiil could have held on for long enough to get a better deal out of the Dominion.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Kraeten

[Lachdonin]

I

Unless you're misunderstanding the context. Hammerfell's neighbors are under Dominion influence, which is in stark contrast to Hammerfell's defiance. More importantly, the fact that Sadia had to flee Hammerfell altogether goes a long way towards supporting the argument that the Dominion has no influence there. Or at least so little influence that they cannot protect their own agents...which is a far cry from the Empire's conduct.

Is it? The Legion doesn't seem to have any problem telling Elenwyn to shove off at Helgen. We also do not know when Saadia fled, and it's more than likely it was either during the war, or slightly after, during a transitional period. It's also well within the Dominions character to simply cut compromised agents loose and leave them to their fate. Really I suppose the evidence could go either way, but I have never heard the term Resistance used to discribe posture by between two rival nations.

 

 

 

For the third time now, I'm not saying the Empire was so well off after the Great War that they could have taken the fight to the Summerset Isles. The Empire was however on enough solid ground that they could have refused to submit to the Dominion's demands. If Hammerfell can defy the Dominion for five years, the combined might of High Rock, Skyrim and Cyrodiil could have held on for long enough to get a better deal out of the Dominion.

Look at things from the Empire's perspective at the TIME, rather than with hindsight. The Reach had already fallen in a local uprising, your infrastructure is devistated, unrest is rising in two Nybeanese cities, half of Hammerfell is already under enemy control, your capitals fortifications are severely compromised and your army is well below half strength and your enemy still has untouched territories and an unknown military strength. Does that situation scream "Better hang on for a better deal"?

 

I've also heard some talk that the Dominion only agreed to the treaty in Hammerfell because they didn't NEED them anymore. They wanted parts of southern Hammerfell from the get-go, and had nearly uncontested control for almost 6 years. They found whatever they wanted, and played the negotiations to make the Empire look stupid. Admittedly, this comes from the same people who think the entire Royal House hiding in the Crystal Tower was planned by the Thalmor, and that they convinced the Argonians to invade Morrowind, so it must be taken with a grain of salt...

 

Anyway, the overall point is, the Empire was already comming appart after the Battle of the Red Ring. Keeping forces and resources committed to warding against any potential secont assaults would have meant less resources to deal with the fallout in Marcarth, and budding revolts in Cyrodiil (it's worth noting that the cities in question are both Nybeanese and are typically favorable towards diplomacy for its own sake, so peace may have been to placate them...). They also had to consider the Dunmer, who are generally shifty at the best of times, and the totall lack of any information on the Argonians.

[GetTheJojDone]

No one seems to have considered that the Dominion's goal wasn't to conquer Hammerfell - not yet, anyway - just create a lasting rift between Hammerfell and the Empire. And it wildly succeeded.

[Kraeten]

No one seems to have considered that the Dominion's goal wasn't to conquer Hammerfell - not yet, anyway - just create a lasting rift between Hammerfell and the Empire. And it wildly succeeded.

 

It only succeeded because the Emperor played right into their hands when he signed the Concordant. The only province it failed to antagonize was High Rock.

 

Look at things from the Empire's perspective at the TIME, rather than with hindsight.

 

The matter is still fairly straight forward if we look at it that way. Elves arrive at the Empire's door, they make unreasonable demands, then dump the heads of the Imperial's elite defenders at the Empire's feet. War is naturally declared. War is waged. The casualties on both sides are horrendous. Elves explain that if there's to be peace, they want those old demands of theirs to be met.

 

Now lets weigh the pros and cons of the offer.

 

Accept the offer and the war ends, but at the cost of apparently giving up one of your THREE remaining provinces in addition to antagonizing the third.

 

Deny the offer, and continue fighting....because what did the eighth legion and the rest of those killed in the struggle die for otherwise?

Edited October 4, 2014 by Kraeten

[Lachdonin]

The matter is still fairly straight forward if we look at it that way. Elves arrive at the Empire's door, they make unreasonable demands, then dump the heads of the Imperial's elite defenders at the Empire's feet. War is naturally declared. War is waged. The casualties on both sides are horrendous. Elves explain that if there's to be peace, they want those old demands of theirs to be met.

 

Now lets weigh the pros and cons of the offer.

 

Accept the offer and the war ends, but at the cost of apparently giving up one of your THREE remaining provinces in addition to antagonizing the third.

 

Deny the offer, and continue fighting....because what did the eighth legion and the rest of those killed in the struggle die for otherwise?

Your oversimplifying things.

 

The options were A: agree to the terms, succeeding a PART of one of your 4 remaining provinces (Morrowind is still part of the Empire, just largely autonomous as always). The war ends, and you have the opportunity to regroup, rebuild and deal with internal issues. There will be some unrest about terms but the same can really be said for all treaties (look at Tiber's treaty with Morrowind, or with Hammerfell) but it's not predicted to be any worse than the unrest already brewing from a war-weary public.

 

B: Refuse, and maintain a vigil across a large front with limited forces, with territory still in enemy hands, with limited supplies and at least one active revolt ongoing within your borders in the hope that you've done enough damage to the enemy that they won't try to invade again.

 

Couple this with the fact that local armies were forming and not answering the Empires calls (the Forebear army that relieved a besieged city in Hammerfell, Ulfric's army in Skyrim) and you have a very Harry situation from the Empires perspective. Their armies were depleted, their resources and infrastructure devastated, and now the Provincials were arming and doing their own thing instead of supporting the Legion.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Lachdonin