Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[khyloskye]

@LoneWolfEburg

 

I agree somewhat, part of my point was that there is no real life equivalent to TES racism since we are all the same race. We'd need another sentient race, like aliens as you mentioned, for that comparison.

 

When I said it's not meant to mirror real life, I meant not in a direct way. Concepts like evil, good, and heroism obviously play a role. But straight-line cultural and societal comparisons in fantasy writing do not often match our own civilized society. Indeed, part of the draw of fantasy writing is exploring otherwise taboo ideas.

 

For instance, let's say a writer created a story about an all-female warrior society (like mythological Amazons) in which they routinely carried out raids to human settlements, and carried off and enslaved men for labor and reproductive purposes. Now if someone reading that immediately stopped and remarked, "Well this is just plain sexist, and the slavery and rape involved is disgusting. I can't read this and I don't see how anyone else can, it's wrong." <--Well, yeah, slavery and rape is very wrong. But that's not the point of the story. Mature fantasy writing assumes you already know the difference between right and wrong, as well as have the ability to set aside your Earthly conventions for the sake of the narrative. It's inviting you to at least marginally participate in a world that doesn't always play by the same rules as real life. And as long as you realize that it's not trying to change your moral code, it's okay to let yourself be immersed in it for a little while.

Edited July 25, 2017 by khyloskye

[Padre86]

 

Both of them are racially motivated it seems, to which I can't join either. Tullius seems to have a problem with Nords and their culture. Ulfric doesn't care for non Nords. Can't support either. UNFORTUNATELY, Diplomatic Immunity and Season Unending sort of force you to pick sides anyway.

 

TES is a racially distinct and divided setting, and I'm not sure it's really considered "wrong" in TES to dislike or even hate other races. The Empire is a melting pot because by its very nature it has to be. And the Nords (like the Altmer) are xenophobic because that's kind of how most of them just are...they were written to be that way.

 

But I really don't think our own Earthly experience with racism has anything to do with some completely fictional fantasy setting like TES. For one thing, RL racism is a misnomer...we are all the same race. In TES, they are actually different races (vast DNA differences if you will) and even those are divided into subgroups with distinctly different physical abilities (humans: Nord, Redguard, Imperial, Breton). A Nord being "racist" to a Breton would be the real-life equivalent of a human being racist to a chimpanzee. And a Nord being "racist" to an Argonian would be the real-life equivalent of a human being racist to a dolphin.

 

Games like TES (and the vast majority of all fantasy rpgs for that matter) rely on distinct species, or "races", for both visual variety as well as the more important aspect of giving the player much needed customization and uniqueness when engaging the narrative. Plus, it's just cool to get to RP things that look elvish, dwarvish, feline, etc.

 

I mean, if you can't support a certain culture in a fantasy RPG setting because there's evidence of even minor discrimination to another "race", then you might think about playing a different game. Although you'd be hard put to find one that is 100% non-discriminatory/racist.

 

It's a game. It's not meant to mirror real life.

 

 

1) I really don't think the Nords are, by nature, xenophobic. I think there are some Nords who are using Ulfric's campaign as an excuse to act like a$$holes to certain non-Nord residents, but that's only a small minority of a certain city. I think Nords rather are proud of their heritage and their culture. Having pride in one's culture and being xenophobic can sometimes overlap, but the two aren't necessarily one in the same. The Nords respect martial prowess, honor, loyalty, great feats of courage and strength. They're basically TES' version of the vikings (or at least how we have pictured the vikings). The Nords can and do respect non-Nord races that espouse the characteristics they hold so dear; there are examples of this in many of the holds. The Nords also have no ambition of racial/cultural purges and world domination, unlike the Altmer who are explicity trying to conquer the known world and subjugate all non-elf races. All that said, TES is a medieval world, and people are largely unconnected with one another due to time of travel, geography, ect. So it is to be expected that the people of one culture or race would be at less skeptical, if not outright hostile, towards peoples of another race or culture. The fact that non-Nord races are allowed to reside in Skyrim (heck even full-blown Orc camps are allowed there) shows that the Nords have at least some measure of tolerance for other peoples.

 

2) While we are all one human race, there is in fact a lot of genetic variation among the different peoples of the world. It is a subject that has, in recent times, become taboo to discuss (largely because of PC culture), but they do exist. The differences in racial genetics, or whatever you want to call it, has a scientific basis to it.

 

3) There is a history of racial conflict in Skyrim. Nords vs Snow Elves. Dunmer vs Argonians. Altmer vs everyone. Orcs vs Bretons. TES and all of its games were intentionally written with these kinds of tensions and conflicts in mind. And I don't think it's far fetched that TES writers borrowed ideas from real world history to develop these lore aspects.

[TheConquerorC]

 

 

Both of them are racially motivated it seems, to which I can't join either. Tullius seems to have a problem with Nords and their culture. Ulfric doesn't care for non Nords. Can't support either. UNFORTUNATELY, Diplomatic Immunity and Season Unending sort of force you to pick sides anyway.

 

TES is a racially distinct and divided setting, and I'm not sure it's really considered "wrong" in TES to dislike or even hate other races. The Empire is a melting pot because by its very nature it has to be. And the Nords (like the Altmer) are xenophobic because that's kind of how most of them just are...they were written to be that way.

 

But I really don't think our own Earthly experience with racism has anything to do with some completely fictional fantasy setting like TES. For one thing, RL racism is a misnomer...we are all the same race. In TES, they are actually different races (vast DNA differences if you will) and even those are divided into subgroups with distinctly different physical abilities (humans: Nord, Redguard, Imperial, Breton). A Nord being "racist" to a Breton would be the real-life equivalent of a human being racist to a chimpanzee. And a Nord being "racist" to an Argonian would be the real-life equivalent of a human being racist to a dolphin.

 

Games like TES (and the vast majority of all fantasy rpgs for that matter) rely on distinct species, or "races", for both visual variety as well as the more important aspect of giving the player much needed customization and uniqueness when engaging the narrative. Plus, it's just cool to get to RP things that look elvish, dwarvish, feline, etc.

 

I mean, if you can't support a certain culture in a fantasy RPG setting because there's evidence of even minor discrimination to another "race", then you might think about playing a different game. Although you'd be hard put to find one that is 100% non-discriminatory/racist.

 

It's a game. It's not meant to mirror real life.

 

 

1) I really don't think the Nords are, by nature, xenophobic. I think there are some Nords who are using Ulfric's campaign as an excuse to act like a$$holes to certain non-Nord residents, but that's only a small minority of a certain city. I think Nords rather are proud of their heritage and their culture. Having pride in one's culture and being xenophobic can sometimes overlap, but the two aren't necessarily one in the same. The Nords respect martial prowess, honor, loyalty, great feats of courage and strength. They're basically TES' version of the vikings (or at least how we have pictured the vikings). The Nords can and do respect non-Nord races that espouse the characteristics they hold so dear; there are examples of this in many of the holds. The Nords also have no ambition of racial/cultural purges and world domination, unlike the Altmer who are explicity trying to conquer the known world and subjugate all non-elf races. All that said, TES is a medieval world, and people are largely unconnected with one another due to time of travel, geography, ect. So it is to be expected that the people of one culture or race would be at less skeptical, if not outright hostile, towards peoples of another race or culture. The fact that non-Nord races are allowed to reside in Skyrim (heck even full-blown Orc camps are allowed there) shows that the Nords have at least some measure of tolerance for other peoples.

 

2) While we are all one human race, there is in fact a lot of genetic variation among the different peoples of the world. It is a subject that has, in recent times, become taboo to discuss (largely because of PC culture), but they do exist. The differences in racial genetics, or whatever you want to call it, has a scientific basis to it.

 

3) There is a history of racial conflict in Skyrim. Nords vs Snow Elves. Dunmer vs Argonians. Altmer vs everyone. Orcs vs Bretons. TES and all of its games were intentionally written with these kinds of tensions and conflicts in mind. And I don't think it's far fetched that TES writers borrowed ideas from real world history to develop these lore aspects.

 

Never really found the Nords racist TBH. I always feel that a lot of people are pushing a cosmopolitan view on them and I don't think that the natives of the other provinces would be very happy if a bunch of outsiders were trying to change their culture or there was too much of them. A bunch of Argonians in Morrowind comes to mind on how well that would go down.

[woodsman30]

If you do a play-through without doing the main quest of being Dragonborn and try to be immersive.. "Via mods of course" ... It becomes interesting. I play a leveled character meaning everyone levels with me friend or foe also with Frost-fall and Last seed. What becomes clear is the stalemate in the civil war and why... Skyrim is very very harsh. There is a reason why the Dominion, Imperials, and Storm-cloaks do little about each other. Think immersive... supplies are a real issues as is the extreme cold one just cannot walk Skyrim without a real plan "much like the invasion the French tried in Russia". Also there is no reason to believe bandits are push overs quite the opposite as they would have some of the best gear due to raids and plundering caravans. Currently my game bandits can have Dadric weapons and often ebony armor they are more than capable of talking on any patrol Storm-cloak, Imperial and Dominion. This is why Skyrim is left as it is even after the great war it is to big and far to harsh to be ruled by one faction..enter the nine hold of Skyrim left to rule them-selves.

Besides that if one walks around Skyrim and talks to people and reads books it becomes clear people just want to be left alone without outside influence ..for the most part.

I wish there was a third option of booting all factions and leave Skyrim to the people. I currently leave it alone I do not agree with either side both are equally wrong for many reasons... I also believe much like Hammerfell Skyrim is unconquerable by the Damion or anyone else.

[Padre86]

If you do a play-through without doing the main quest of being Dragonborn and try to be immersive.. "Via mods of course" ... It becomes interesting. I play a leveled character meaning everyone levels with me friend or foe also with Frost-fall and Last seed. What becomes clear is the stalemate in the civil war and why... Skyrim is very very harsh. There is a reason why the Dominion, Imperials, and Storm-cloaks do little about each other. Think immersive... supplies are a real issues as is the extreme cold one just cannot walk Skyrim without a real plan "much like the invasion the French tried in Russia". Also there is no reason to believe bandits are push overs quite the opposite as they would have some of the best gear due to raids and plundering caravans. Currently my game bandits can have Dadric weapons and often ebony armor they are more than capable of talking on any patrol Storm-cloak, Imperial and Dominion. This is why Skyrim is left as it is even after the great war it is to big and far to harsh to be ruled by one faction..enter the nine hold of Skyrim left to rule them-selves.

Besides that if one walks around Skyrim and talks to people and reads books it becomes clear people just want to be left alone without outside influence ..for the most part.

I wish there was a third option of booting all factions and leave Skyrim to the people. I currently leave it alone I do not agree with either side both are equally wrong for many reasons... I also believe much like Hammerfell Skyrim is unconquerable by the Damion or anyone else.

 

Logistics and environmental issues do factor into warfare and sieges in Skyrim, that said, the Nords, as a people, are used to fighting with each other and against common enemies in such an environment. I think the real stalemate of the civil war has less to do with the environmental and logistical issues and more to do with the insurgency/heart-and-minds aspect. Militarily, the Empire could likely surge more forces into Skyrim in an attempt to overwhelm and defeat the rebellion, but there is the concern (sometimes voiced by Nordic soliders in the Legion) that such a move would simply add more fuel to the Stormcloak fire. Many holds and people in Skyrim, as you noted, simply want to be left alone. A forceful and overbearing move by the Empire could easily persuade many of them to join the Stormcloak camp, which is what the Empire is trying to avoid.

 

Bandits are, and always have been an issue, in Skyrim and though out Tamriel. But to suggest that they are a real threat to the government forces (of the Empire, the Stormcloaks, or any of the individual holds) is inaccurate and unrealistic. If you want to play a mod where they level up and get ridiculous armor and weapons, that's your call. Me personally, I don't think its realistic or lore-friendly that they be carrying high-level armor/weapon sets or that they should be able to defeat guard/army NPC's. In fact, i think it should be the opposite where the bandits are barely scraping by and carry low-end stuff while the guards/army NPC's should be allowed access to better gear. But that's a personal choice for each player to make.

 

As for there being a 3rd option where all "factions" leave Skyrim to the people, that's basically the same as letting the Stormcloaks win. Skyrim has always had a system of semi-independent Holds which was subject to a high king's rule through a feudal relationship. Jarl Elisif would never be taken seriously as Skyrim's ruler, with or without the Empire's backing. So if you want an option where a high king rules over the Jarls and Holds of an independent Skyrim, Ulfiric and the Stormcloaks are the best option and closest option that brings you to that reality.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Padre86

[woodsman30]

 

If you do a play-through without doing the main quest of being Dragonborn and try to be immersive.. "Via mods of course" ... It becomes interesting. I play a leveled character meaning everyone levels with me friend or foe also with Frost-fall and Last seed. What becomes clear is the stalemate in the civil war and why... Skyrim is very very harsh. There is a reason why the Dominion, Imperials, and Storm-cloaks do little about each other. Think immersive... supplies are a real issues as is the extreme cold one just cannot walk Skyrim without a real plan "much like the invasion the French tried in Russia". Also there is no reason to believe bandits are push overs quite the opposite as they would have some of the best gear due to raids and plundering caravans. Currently my game bandits can have Dadric weapons and often ebony armor they are more than capable of talking on any patrol Storm-cloak, Imperial and Dominion. This is why Skyrim is left as it is even after the great war it is to big and far to harsh to be ruled by one faction..enter the nine hold of Skyrim left to rule them-selves.

Besides that if one walks around Skyrim and talks to people and reads books it becomes clear people just want to be left alone without outside influence ..for the most part.

I wish there was a third option of booting all factions and leave Skyrim to the people. I currently leave it alone I do not agree with either side both are equally wrong for many reasons... I also believe much like Hammerfell Skyrim is unconquerable by the Damion or anyone else.

 

Logistics and environmental issues do factor into warfare and sieges in Skyrim, that said, the Nords, as a people, are used to fighting with each other and against common enemies in such an environment. I think the real stalemate of the civil war has less to do with the environmental and logistical issues and more to do with the insurgency/heart-and-minds aspect. Militarily, the Empire could likely surge more forces into Skyrim in an attempt to overwhelm and defeat the rebellion, but there is the concern (sometimes voiced by Nordic soliders in the Legion) that such a move would simply add more fuel to the Stormcloak fire. Many holds and people in Skyrim, as you noted, simply want to be left alone. A forceful and overbearing move by the Empire could easily persuade many of them to join the Stormcloak camp, which is what the Empire is trying to avoid.

 

Bandits are, and always have been an issue, in Skyrim and though out Tamriel. But to suggest that they are a real threat to the government forces (of the Empire, the Stormcloaks, or any of the individual holds) is inaccurate and unrealistic. If you want to play a mod where they level up and get ridiculous armor and weapons, that's your call. Me personally, I don't think its realistic or lore-friendly that they be carrying high-level armor/weapon sets or that they should be able to defeat guard/army NPC's. In fact, i think it should be the opposite where the bandits are barely scraping by and carry low-end stuff while the guards/army NPC's should be allowed access to better gear. But that's a personal choice for each player to make.

 

As for there being a 3rd option where all "factions" leave Skyrim to the people, that's basically the same as letting the Stormcloaks win. Skyrim has always had a system of semi-independent Holds which was subject to a high king's rule through a feudal relationship. Jarl Elisif would never be taken seriously as Skyrim's ruler, with or without the Empire's backing. So if you want an option where a high king rules over the Jarls and Holds of an independent Skyrim, Ulfiric and the Stormcloaks are the best option and closest option that brings you to that reality.

 

There is no reason to believe bandits are weak and ill equipped quite the opposite most would be ex-soldiers, mercs, hunters, and mages who have seen their fair share of combat. Look around Skyrim White-run is surrounded by bandit camps the Jarl has done nothing about because he cant same with many holds. Also no reason to believe only the "Dragon-born or soldiers" should be the only ones allowed leveled weapons that is just does not make sense even vanilla camps have boss chests that may spawn dadric or dragonbone equipment so clearly they have them. If it is available in game it should be able to be used by all JMO. As far as leaving the civil war alone is like letting the Storm-cloaks to win does not make sense either.. they can't win nor can the Empire hence the stale-mate and your involvement both sides need help to turn the tide in their favor ...and oddly enough most of the time they want you to clear bandit camps because they cannot.. Ulfric will slaughter his own people just to gain power and Tulis is just a lackey for the Empire who cares nothing for Skyrim...Hence I leave it be

[Raadar]

I side with Stormcloaks because of my RP Akatosh/Lorkhan (Lorkhan is alsweys for skyrim :smile: ) Empire is already dead when last blood of Akatosh is gone :wink: to wear Amulet of K.. i dont need to write here stories how Wulfhart and many other burn alessian priests to be back into old ways :tongue: and more .. that is story for another time, i dont care for some interpretation of some people how that will unmade man from face of the eart and Dominion will win i dont think soo that will happen.. and also you have choise to be with Lork or Akatosh lover of empire :tongue: did Stormcloaks hate others i dont think so, did Ulfric want to pump his ego for throne i dont think so he also say in the end he will respect voting of other jarls for next King of skyrim :wink: in another hand all who side with empire already doomed empire.. because of darkbrotherhood you kill Emperor :wink: and next kalpa will begin from skyrim and forming somthing new..

Edited December 1, 2017 by Raadar

[skyquest32]

I joined the Thalmar with a a few mods for that, and the empire as a Highelf. One of the mods even ads a Thalmar player faction and you get the attack voice as well as an easier time of diplomatic immunity and a few other quests as well. Also a couple quests added by one of the mods. Also for quest already in there you get a Dominion officer to accompany you for rooting out Talos worship, as a follower/subornate. You get a guild as well as other things. You can get a cool pad and other perks. Heavy craftable thalmar armor in your basic gold trim black, and your more basic black recolor.

I do this on my high elf play throughs only..there is even an included theme song, two of them. Anthem? It takes 8 mods total, besides main.

[jpmonteith]

I'm personally for the angry nationalists whose race has a good track record of ending elven civilizations. I mean, the snow elves kinda had a bow that did control the very sun its self. Also, people complaining about the whole nord racism thing, and dark elves being in the slum....dark elves kinda don't deserve much respect, when you find out that dark elves worship nothing else but daedra; they like to enslave other races, particularly argonians and khajiits; the f*#@ers live a long time, so those very dunmer in the Grey quarter are probably the biggest assholes of them all (minus Hlaluu, who even states that if they'd spend more time making them selves useful rather than bitching and moaning, maybe they'd get a little more respect within the city); the dunmer (minus Hlaluu) arn't really doin' anything the make the situation they're in any bit better, they're just sitting there; I believe dunmer also disallow the resurrection of Lorkhan as well and that also pissed off the nords. Also years ago, the dunmer had helped both the nords, and argonians in some war or whatever, but then after decided the argonians would make good slaves, and since they live like thousands of years, they pretty much deserve any shitty situation they get I believe. I mean the nords of windhelm also don't give s*** to the high elf chick that lives there who even says the dark elves of the grey quarter are lazy, and complain too much. She says she was met with hostility upon her first entry, but made her self useful and so she's a gleaming member of the Windhelm community. I don't think the nords are racist, because of the high elf woman, and Hlaalu.

 

Also, what about how Ulfric was held by the Thalmor, and tortured relentlessly before the Thalmor had won? After the Thalmor won the war, they had finally gotten some information that was essentially useless to them now, and then later right before they let him go, they told him that the information he gave helped them win the war, which basically broke him. Give Ulfric a brake, he's broken.

 

Edit: He's more like a tragic hero...or villain, if you still go with an empire that's like the romans gave up their old gods, and will probably just lose this war to what they believe are simple barbarians.

 

Also Edit: Also, that Titus Mede the Second guy didn't really ban Talos worship strictly cause of the Altmeri Dominion, he did it cause he decided Talos worship was morally wrong, that allowing people to worship whatever they please was morally wrong.

Edited December 15, 2017 by jpmonteith

[Caerulean]

I've yet to label the Stormcloaks as racists, but many of them are bordering on extreme nationalism.

 

The Dunmer in Windhelm are barely lazier than anyone. The difference is that the locals don't have to prove themselves as much as the foreigners they don't want in their city. The Dunmer may have had a bad history with the Nords, but it's not like the Argonians aren't also discriminated. For what reason should the Argonians be forced outside the walls? The city's too small? Why do they have the apparent least-paying jobs?

 

Ulfric being a former prisoner of the Thalmor isn't a reason only to sympathize with him. It's also a reason to question his capabilities and dispositions as a leader. The Empire as fighting the same war and he unwittingly makes it worse. The problem is this was an age of pride and prejudice and the Nords don't understand that, for the sake of national security, the Empire was forced to temporarily accept the peace treaty.

 

Regarding Titus Mede II, wasn't that information told to you by a Thalmor or a Thalmor sympathizer? Doesn't Titus Mede II carry around an Amulet of Talos which can be found on his person when he's assassinated in the Dark Brotherhood questline?