Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[notmyhome]

What I don't entirely understand is why I can't get Ulfric and Tullius in a room together and say:

 

"Ulfric, stop being a racist douchebag. Or at least get your damn army in line. Mer have their place in Skyrim as much as the Nords do. Tullius, grow some balls. And stop being elitist. Now let's go f*** up the Dominion. Together."

 

I mean, I'm a Lycanthrope Vampire Lord, with armour crafted from Alduin's MOTHER, a sword made from the heart of an otherworldly being that sucks the life out of those I hit with it, a master mage capable of charring, freezing, or shocking you into Oblivion and back - and then into Sovngarde -, haave two dragons at my beck and call - and Alduin's former lieutenant as an ally -, the soul of a dragon, and to top it off, able to breathe fire/ice or become ethereal or slow down time itself by yelling at someone.

 

Beating the Thalmor is an everyday job for me. I kill dragons. F***ing dragons.

 

Because sheer capability to inflict physical harm does not cause significant, long-lasting character improvements in those you oppress?

Not even in TES universe does violence solve any problems (besides that "reaching heaven through violence" stuff which has caused its own share of troubles, so scrap that).

Edit: formatting.

Edited August 1, 2014 by notmyhome

[GoldenAngelHeart]

To be quite honest..

 

I feel at most times that I would like to join Ulfric's cause but I have a hard time getting past ''Skyrim is for Nords only'' attitude that the majority of his followers have adopted and despite the fact that he will willingly take the Dragonborn, despite the race, he does nothing to help alter that attitude. I feel like he is feeding into it, maybe as a way to keep them loyal?

Then there is Jarl Bulgruuf. I really like him (not his kids though..they need a good old fashioned spanking) and the thought of betraying his trust and ousting him just does not sit well with me.

 

I cannot bring myself to support the empire either. I really like Hadvar, he seems a real decent sort and he even felt a bit bad because that b**** Captain and General Tullius didn't give two figs about sparing an innocent life. I do end up leaving with Hadvar though because he seems more like a ''Let's talk about this.." rather than "Eww stormcloak..you die now!"

 

At any rate..I have only done the civil war twice, because I wanted both sides of the story so once was to join Ulfric's side and the other was for the Empire. I have come to my own conclusion that, in any play-through, I don't ever want to be involved in the Civil War again. If anything..Jarl Bulgruuf seems to me to be the one better suited to be High King than anyone else in the game.

 

One last add to this..I never pass up an opportunity to kill, maim, hack, slash and stomp on the Thalmor.

[Lachdonin]

General Tullius didn't give two figs about sparing an innocent life.

People seem to forget Tullius's first order when Alduin attacks... He doesn't order ranks up, doesn't order the captives stabbed in the back. What does he say? Oh, right, get the civilians to safety. Ulfic and his own don't even seem to stop to save a life, but Tullius's first concern is non-combatants.

 

He may be a bit of an elitist prick (though, anyone whose read up on Tiber Septim knows this is how Imperial Generals are... They take after their founding example) but his first concern is saving lives.

[theconquistidor]

 

General Tullius didn't give two figs about sparing an innocent life.

People seem to forget Tullius's first order when Alduin attacks... He doesn't order ranks up, doesn't order the captives stabbed in the back. What does he say? Oh, right, get the civilians to safety. Ulfic and his own don't even seem to stop to save a life, but Tullius's first concern is non-combatants.

 

He may be a bit of an elitist prick (though, anyone whose read up on Tiber Septim knows this is how Imperial Generals are... They take after their founding example) but his first concern is saving lives.

 

There were still tied up. Kinda hard to save the people if you your not even the main authorities in the town and those very same authorities and townsfolk screamed for your death. And enough with the spy remarks. Ulfric isn't a spy and the Thalmor explicitly state in that same dossier that a Stormcloak victory is one of the worst possible outcomes they hope for. They just want a war with no end in site.

Edited August 2, 2014 by theconquistidor

[Lachdonin]

Ulfric seems to have gotten himself untied and tucked away without a hitch. And once freed, his first thoughts aren't 'we need to save people', they are instead 'let's get the eff out of here'.

 

That said, as a former member of her Magesties Canadian Armed Forces, I guess ibdont see as much bad in Tullius as most people. He acts as a military commander SHOULD, not like some politician trying to drum up support.

[Kraeten]

Ulfic and his own don't even seem to stop to save a life, but Tullius's first concern is non-combatants.

 

Disingenuous. Ralof tries to save the player for one thing. Secondly, Ulfric and his men are in hostile territory. Escaping from a Imperial Fort is no small task, even with a dragon spreading chaos. Plus, unless I'm mistaken those same non-combatants cried "Death to the Stormcloaks" during the execution. To say Ulfric should have risked the survival of his rebellion to save those people is more than a little ridiculous.

[Lachdonin]

 

Ulfic and his own don't even seem to stop to save a life, but Tullius's first concern is non-combatants.

 

Disingenuous. Ralof tries to save the player for one thing. Secondly, Ulfric and his men are in hostile territory. Escaping from a Imperial Fort is no small task, even with a dragon spreading chaos. Plus, unless I'm mistaken those same non-combatants cried "Death to the Stormcloaks" during the execution. To say Ulfric should have risked the survival of his rebellion to save those people is more than a little ridiculous.

So it's reasonable for Ulfric to ignore civilians in danger, because he is in hostile territory, but at the same time it's unreasonable for a prisoner, captured in enemy territory alongside known rebels, to be considered an enemy. Due diligence works both ways.

 

Still, none of that disputes the fact that Tullius's first order isn't a military one, it's a humanitarian one. Nowhere, in all of Skyrim, does Ulfric make a similar command.

[GoldenAngelHeart]

When I said that he didn't give two figs, I was basically referring to the fact that the Dragonborn was hauled to the chopping block simply due to proximity, referring to before Alduin attacked. The reason I really like Hadvar and always choose to leave with him is because he actually does show concern for my Dragonborn and does his best to lead her to safety. Ulfric and his 'buddies' are unbound but do you think he or Raluf offer to untie you before you're told to hurdle yourself across a large gap into a burning building?

 

Understandably, Hadvar doesn't either until you both are safe inside the keep but he is also trying to lead the Dragonborn out of the path of the dragon. Either way, I stay as far away as I can get from both sides of the Civil War. Though I do resent a bit that you don't have the option to say "That's not why I'm here" to both the General and Ulfric when the Greybeards send you to summon them for the Peace Treaty meeting. Because I feel that given the choice of whether or not you want to join up with either side of the Civil War, you shouldn't have to be forced into saying ''Hey I came to fight for your side" before you're able to tell them the Greybeards want an audience with them.

 

I wasn't trying to fan any flames with my opinion on the matter and if I did, it wasn't intentional and I do apologize.

[Lachdonin]

I wasn't trying to fan any flames with my opinion on the matter and if I did, it wasn't intentional and I do apologize.

Heh, not a problem. I just tend to get a bit jumpy in threads like this, because there is a general tendency to bend facts. I've done it from time to time myself, though undo try not to...

 

Some of the mentality, particularly amongst Stormcloak supporters (which everyone has to admit are by far the most vocal) is to take things without context, either of wider events or of the world in question. The Dragonborn's arrest/imprisonment and the Dunmeri segregation in Windhelm are two prime examples of what have become talking points, largely devoid of context and only considered from an outside, mordern-ethics position.

[Kraeten]

but at the same time it's unreasonable for a prisoner, captured in enemy territory alongside known rebels, to be considered an enemy. Due diligence works both ways.

 

Except you weren't arguing for equivelency or due dilience, you were simply trying to paint Ulfric as selfish for not trying to save anyone while escaping a settlement filled with people who wanted him and his men dead. Which again was a ridiculous and contrived argument.

 

In addition to say Tullius's first order was humanitarian is plainly false. You're forgetting about that little part where Tullius arranged for the player, Ulfric, and his men to be summarily executed. That he decided to abadon his prisoners to the dragon in favor of evacuating civilians is more or less commendable, but that's his duty as a legionnaire.

 

As for saying Ulfric has no interest in helping others, you're forgetting a few things such as how he libertated Markarth from the barbaric Forsworn. We also have Brunwulf mentioning how when Nords are harmed by bandits, Ulfric won't hesitate to send soldiers out in defense. Lastly, and this is true of all Jarls, Ulfric won't name anyone Thane who hasn't contributed to the welfare of the city. So, no, he isn't as selfish as you claim he is.

 

As for which side in the overall debate is the most vocal, the Imperial sympathizers are by far the most vocal. Chief on their list of criticisms is Ulfric's racism, which is consistently blown out of proportion.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Kraeten