Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[117649AR]

Keep in mind, however, that the Stormcloaks are both heavily weakened from the Civil War, and would be fighting their own pro-Imperial insurgency within the borders of Skyrim. They have not the strength to push through Cyrodiil to the Dominion, and consider that even if the Stormcloaks supported the Empire against the Dominion, a fractured front is still weaker than a united one: the Dominion already stands a good chance of victory against a fully united Empire. Against a fractured one, it's almost assured.

[MidbossVyers]

Well, whoever wins in the Civil War will be weakened as a result of it and will have to contend with the remnants of the other army. Maybe, there's a canon reason why the officers of the enemy army are still essential even after the Civil War ends?

[117649AR]

My previous posts go into length about it, and I'd rather not simply repeat myself, but suffice it to say that while regardless of the victor humanity is weakened, the best chance for a victory against the Dominion comes with an Imperial victory. A united front is stronger than a fractured one, even if man is allied against the Thalmor.

[Kraeten]

It is only the best chance IF we assume Cyrodiil has the stomach for another war with the Dominion, and all evidence points to the contrary. If anything Cyrodiil has become the Vichy France of Tamriel. A unfair example in some respects, given that the Imperials do seem prepared to defend themselves from invasion but there doesn't appear to be any drive whatsoever to actually attack the Dominion. Rather they seem content to defend what's left of their meager Empire, and decades after the Great War are still far too eager to appease their Thalmor conquerors.

[Lachdonin]

It is only the best chance IF we assume Cyrodiil has the stomach for another war with the Dominion, and all evidence points to the contrary.

What evidence? The Imperial General telling us point of fact the Empire is preparing for war? The Emperor statements my he lacks the political support to start another war? How about the refusal to hand over prisoners which were, by all rights, Thalmor juristiction?

[Kraeten]

The Imperial General tells us he doubts the peace will last between the Empire and Dominion, and even that doubt he wants to keep private. Hardly the kind of stuff that speaks of an eagerness to go to war with the Dominion. The Emperor lacking political support at home only illustrates Cyrodiil's lack of fighting spirit, and I'm still unsure where you're getting that dialogue. The refusal to hand over prisoners doesn't make up for letting the Thalmor go where they please, inserting themselves into whatever politics they might fancy.

 

The fact the Empire is still walking on egg shells when dealing with the Dominion, while the Thalmor openly speak of the Great War as only their "first war with the empire" illustrates how uncertain the Empire is of its own strength even after decades of relative peace. And this is the force people expect to defeat to the Dominion? Their faith is misplaced.

 

Better that Skyrim leave Cyrodiil behind. The Nords can put up just as much of a fight as the Redguards did, if not more so since their northern shores will be much less hospitable to the Aldmeri fleet than Hammerfell's.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Kraeten

[117649AR]

No one has any reason to believe that they could surely succeed against the Dominion, and for good reason. However, it is fact that the Empire is very literally the only other faction in Tamriel that has the military might and political influence to even challenge the Aldmeri Dominion, let alone hope to hold the line against it. Keep in mind that Hammerfell did not, and could not, drive out the Dominion's Armies alone: the Imperial Legions, led by Titus Mede II, had previously broken the back of the Aldmeri Armies operating on the mainland, including Lady Arannelya's host in Hammerfell. General Decianus' Legion subsequently left behind a large number of Legion veterans on the false pretense of medical discharges before departing the province, who together with native Redguard forces, skirmished with retreating Dominion forces across the Alik'r Desert. Even with the Dominion host in Hammerfell being battered and broken however, the Redguard forces and the Legionnaires left behind to defend Hammerfell could only manage to fight those remnants to a standstill in the wake of the White-Gold Concordat before the Dominion retreated, having accomplished most of its goals for the campaign. The Stormcloaks have been fighting their fellow Nords and the Legion for some time, and even in the event that they do win out against the Legion, still have a very large pro-Imperial insurgency to combat within their borders. They do not have the strength to do much of anything, let alone defend themselves from the greatest military force this side of the planet without the support of the Legion.

 

There is no reason to believe that the Empire and the Dominion will not go to war again: the Thalmor plan on it, the Imperial Legion expects it, and everyone on Tamriel has a feeling that it is coming to varying degrees. The entire purpose of the White-Gold Concordat was to allow the Imperial Legion time to lick its wounds, recover, and present the best possible defense for the inevitable Second Great War, an endeavor that has been largely sabotaged by Ulfric Stormcloak's rebellion. And further, on the issue of the White-Gold Concordat and the ban on Talos worship:

 

Prior to Ulfric's meddling in the Reach, the Concordat was not enforced anywhere in the Empire. How could it be? Conventional (and false) belief may hold that General Talos was a Nord of Atmora, but ultimately Tiber Septim was the founder of the Third Empire, and governed from his (more appropriately their) seat in Cyrodiil. It's very plainly visible the extent to which Imperials idolize him, from the rampant Septim symbolism and the fact that they added him to their pantheon after his death. The Empire named Tiber Septim the Emperor Talos the God, not the Nords or any other group. Many Imperial citizens, and many Imperial Legionnaires for that matter, continued to worship Talos in secret even after the Concordat was signed. The only person that gave cause to the Thalmor to enforce the Concordat through their Justiciars and military escorts was Ulfric, through the events of the Uprising in the Reach and the subsequent Stormcloak Rebellion. Many throughout Skyrim will tell you that they used to worship, or continue to worship, Talos in secret, regardless of what is technically stipulated in Imperial law.

 

And lastly, keep in mind the Thalmor endgame: they quite literally seek to unravel creation, kill Talos, and erase the very idea of mankind. While the Thalmor continue to head the Aldmeri Dominion, the whole world is at risk. Thus, the only logical choice for the survival of Mundus is the Empire, as it presents the only opportunity to not only oppose the Dominion, but remove the Thalmor from power.

 

On the goals of the Thalmor:

 

"To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

To achieve this goal, we must:

1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit."

 

[Lachdonin]

The Emperor lacking political support at home only illustrates Cyrodiil's lack of fighting spirit, and I'm still unsure where you're getting that dialogue.

The Emperor admits that he is old, weary and increasingly unpopular. At least a portion of the Elder Council is actively trying to off him. Even the loyal Jarls arent particularly supportive of him. It's rather obvious that he has lost the political support of many of the vassal leaders of the Empire, which severely weakens his position.

 

The Imperial General tells us he doubts the peace will last between the Empire and Dominion, and even that doubt he wants to keep private. Hardly the kind of stuff that speaks of an eagerness to go to war with the Dominion.

Of course he wants to keep that information private. The less the Dominon knows about the specifics of the Empires preparation the better, and no general wants to be remembered for drawing their nation into a war they weren't ready for. Tullius is a GOOD general in his unwillingness to pound his chest and espouse the power of the Empire when he is only given a small part of the picture. He has superiors who get to make the decision on when the Empire is ready for war, and he largely keeps his opinions to himself because it's not his call.

 

And anyone who is eager for war, of any kind, is flat out an idiot. More than that, they are a psychopath. War is horrible, and should be avoided whenever possible. Trying to stave off conflict (while not being aware of the Thalmor's end-Game) is by far the most solid of ethical grounds for any nation, becaus war is horrible in every regard.

 

And this is the force people expect to defeat to the Dominion? Their faith is misplaced..

And their faith is better placed in a known Dominion asset? Whether willing or simply manipulated (I lean more towards the latter, I doubt he would willingly do the bidding of the Thalmor) Ulfric has been identified as an agent of the Dominion, and a pawn in their game. He has already served to give the Justicars access to the Empire and the ability to arrest, torture and execute select members of the Imperial population (and sufficient access to the rest to do far more damage covertly). At worst, he is a willing accomplice, at best he is an easily played dupe. Not exactly stellar material for a leader.

[MidbossVyers]

As you said, Tullius is only 1 general of an Empire of generals and ministers. Unfortunately, we are not given any Imperial dossiers (like from the Emperor or Chancellor), like we are given Thalmor dossiers, but I suppose that was Bethesda's intent to make it vague... Also, who is the current Imperial Chancellor? Given that Motierre wants to kill the Emperor, it seems like he is or will try to make a move for the position (it's a classic strategy to kill the Emperor in order to manipulate an Imperial heir figurehead). Yes, war is horrible. However, in stories like this, people who say lines, like "Any who speak of surrender shall share in this desk's fate" or "A man's life is only 50 years, a dream compared to the age of the world", are usually the heroes. Also, while the Thalmor originally "unleashed" Ulfric, I doubt that they calculated that he would get as far as he did if the Dragonborn aligned him/herself with the Stormcloaks, or else the Thalmor would have evacuated their forces from Markarth and the like, instead of letting them be massacred.

Edited February 23, 2015 by MidbossVyers

[LoneWolfEburg]

Yeah, the Thalmor dossiers state that they don't want either side to win, but for the war to continue as long as possible, which sort of justifies joining either of the two sides, from an anti-Thalmor point of view. It's debatable, though, whether they view an Imperial or a Stormcloak victory as the lesser of two evils.