Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[117649AR]

The Thalmor want the Civil War to continue unresolved for as long as possible because the longer it lasts, the more greatly humanity is weakened. Even in the event that the Civil War concludes, this still remains a Thalmor victory, as the strength of man is that much less than before the Uprising began. However, for the reasons I've gone into exhaustive detail explaining above, a Stormcloak victory is leaps and bounds more preferable to the Thalmor than an Imperial victory. The Stormcloaks lack the strength to challenge the Dominion's military might, and if the rest of the Empire crumbles in the face of the Dominion, they will by no means be able to secure Skyrim's borders. The Empire is the greatest obstacle to the Thalmor not only because it represents the largest bastion of Talos worship (even if in secret rather than open), but because it is the only other faction to rival the Dominion in military strength and political influence: without Skyrim, on whom the Empire depends as much as the province depends upon it, it is that much easier for the Dominion to conquer Tamriel in the inevitable Second Great War.

[Kraeten]

The Emperor admits that he is old, weary and increasingly unpopular. At least a portion of the Elder Council is actively trying to off him. Even the loyal Jarls arent particularly supportive of him. It's rather obvious that he has lost the political support of many of the vassal leaders of the Empire, which severely weakens his position.

Where does he admit this, exactly? Not that it isn't a likely assumption mind you, but I would be interested to know where that dialogue is from. From what I remeber, his dialogue only relates to his iminent death.

And anyone who is eager for war, of any kind, is flat out an idiot. More than that, they are a psychopath. War is horrible, and should be avoided whenever possible. Trying to stave off conflict (while not being aware of the Thalmor's end-Game) is by far the most solid of ethical grounds for any nation, becaus war is horrible in every regard.

War absolutely is horrible, but at times it is necessary. Especially in this case where you're dealing with a faction like the Thalmor bent on racial purity and domination. It's madness to shy away from must be done, especially in light of the rumors pertaining to the Dominion cleansing Valenwood. To stay on the defensive only plays right into the Dominion's hands, as they have already proven themselves master infiltrators and saboteurs. That they can eradicate the Blades and insert themselves into the College of Winterhold, the center of arcane knowledge in Skyrim only demonstrates their long reach. I have little doubt they haven't similarly inserted themselves around other centers of strategic importance in Cyrodiil and High Rock. To assume the Dominion isn't already fully aware of the Empire's defensive measures along its southern borders is laughable.

 

And their faith is better placed in a known Dominion asset? Whether willing or simply manipulated (I lean more towards the latter, I doubt he would willingly do the bidding of the Thalmor) Ulfric has been identified as an agent of the Dominion, and a pawn in their game. He has already served to give the Justicars access to the Empire and the ability to arrest, torture and execute select members of the Imperial population (and sufficient access to the rest to do far more damage covertly). At worst, he is a willing accomplice, at best he is an easily played dupe. Not exactly stellar material for a leader.

 

Ulfric and his Stormcloaks have proven themselves willing to battle the Dominion's poisonos influence, as demonstrated by Galmar's swift execution of Ondolemar. Whatever the Dominion consider him in their paperwork pales before that fact. As for leader material Ulfric is no worse a dupe than the Emperor when he cut ties with Hammerfell and signed the Concordant, effectively giving the Dominion what they'd originally set out to gain in the first place.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Kraeten

[Lachdonin]

Ulfric and his Stormcloaks have proven themselves willing to battle the Dominion's poisonos influence, as demonstrated by Galmar's swift execution of Ondolemar. Whatever the Dominion consider him in their paperwork pales before that fact. As for leader material Ulfric is no worse a dupe than the Emperor when he cut ties with Hammerfell and signed the Concordant, effectively giving the Dominion what they'd originally set out to gain in the first place.

So an event which does not happen in the game, which was CUT and had to be mined out and finished by modders, shows that the Stormclaks are more willing to fight the Dominion? If mods count, I guess all Dragons look like Randy Savage.

 

Everything Ulfric has done has served the Dominion, either willingly or through his predictable response to manipulation. The Dossier even implies that the entire Markarth affair had Dominion fingers pulling strings. Ulfric is an unstable variable and a known associate of the enemy. What's more, what do you think would happen if the Thalmor released the knowledge that Ulfric worked for them, willing or otherwise?

[LoneWolfEburg]

In Vanilla, Ondolemar's body ends up in Hall of the Dead after Stormcloaks take Markarth, so Stormcloaks executing Ondolemar is certainly in-game.

[Lachdonin]

In Vanilla, Ondolemar's body ends up in Hall of the Dead after Stormcloaks take Markarth, so Stormcloaks executing Ondolemar is certainly in-game.

His death is (and generally I favour handing Markarth over to the Stormcloaks in Season Unending so he dies..) but the cause isnt explored, detailed, or explained. He wasn't exactly popular, and the kitchen staff could have offer him in the commotion of the battle (or the exchange) for all anyone knows. Galmar killing him is nowhere in the game, beyond its revival by mods.

 

You can't ascribe credit or blame for an NPCs death to whomever supports your position. Ondolemar dies if the Stormcloaks gain Markarth, that is literally all we know about it. Though, his burial in the Halls of the Dead is peculiar, but likely done just so the player knows where he went...

 

Anywho, the unexplained death of Ondolemar is, again, just that. Unexplained. While it remains rather likely that he was executed by the Stormcloaks, it is less of a certainty than Tullius's dismissal of Elenwyn's authority at Helgen. If you want to interpret Ondolemar's death as evidence of the Stormcloaks having teeth, the regusl to turn over Ulfric has to be accepted in kind.

 

*Its probably worth noting that I think Season Unending is the reason the exchange in question was removed.. if Markarth is given over to the Stormcloaks, Ondolemar's death by Galmar makes no sense (in fact, it still makes no sense, but it's slightly less glaring) because he would have no reason to be there. If the city is captured, he can be caught within its walls, but if it's handed over without conflict he would just be removed, as Enenwyn isn't likely to leave one of her ambassadors in an enemy city.

 

At the same time, Galmar is an attack dog. He is a relatively unstable man who is more than willing to slaughter his own countrymen for uncertainty, and seems to actually relish the thought of war. He is a racist, violent and impulsive brute who can't really be taken as an example of the Stormcloaks, or their actions/intents as a whole.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Lachdonin

[LoneWolfEburg]

I don't think that Galmar necessarily killed Ondolemar within Vanilla context, but it's a pretty safe bet that the Stormies did. You do see Stormcloak soldiers fighting the Thalmor as one of the random events on the roads, so it's fairly certain that even if what really happened was Ondolemar slipping on a step and falling a couple of meters too much, they would regret that this deprived them of an execution opportunity.

 

Galmar's racism is rather perfunctory, like most Stormcloak racism is.

 

 

*Its probably worth noting that I think Season Unending is the reason the exchange in question was removed.. if Markarth is given over to the Stormcloaks, Ondolemar's death by Galmar makes no sense (in fact, it still makes no sense, but it's slightly less glaring) because he would have no reason to be there. If the city is captured, he can be caught within its walls, but if it's handed over without conflict he would just be removed, as Enenwyn isn't likely to leave one of her ambassadors in an enemy city.

 

Not that Bethesda was particularly diligent with the consequences of the civil war. One of the major howlers of pure Vanilla is Dengeir saying "I'll be the Jarl again someday", even after the Stormcloaks restore him to the Falkreath throne. Good thing USKP fixes all instances of such stuff.

[117649AR]

 

War absolutely is horrible, but at times it is necessary. Especially in this case where you're dealing with a faction like the Thalmor bent on racial purity and domination. It's madness to shy away from must be done, especially in light of the rumors pertaining to the Dominion cleansing Valenwood. To stay on the defensive only plays right into the Dominion's hands, as they have already proven themselves master infiltrators and saboteurs. That they can eradicate the Blades and insert themselves into the College of Winterhold, the center of arcane knowledge in Skyrim only demonstrates their long reach. I have little doubt they haven't similarly inserted themselves around other centers of strategic importance in Cyrodiil and High Rock. To assume the Dominion isn't already fully aware of the Empire's defensive measures along its southern borders is laughable.

 

Ulfric and his Stormcloaks have proven themselves willing to battle the Dominion's poisonos influence, as demonstrated by Galmar's swift execution of Ondolemar. Whatever the Dominion consider him in their paperwork pales before that fact. As for leader material Ulfric is no worse a dupe than the Emperor when he cut ties with Hammerfell and signed the Concordant, effectively giving the Dominion what they'd originally set out to gain in the first place.

 

Willing to battle does not equate to able to win. As has been said, it is necessary to defeat the Thalmor rather than simply withstand them, as they actively seek the destruction of Mundus: allowing them to persist increases the chance that linear time and creation-as-is-known may cease to be. The Stormcloaks, especially after an exhaustive Civil War and with a potential pro-Imperial insurgency on their hands, do not have nearly enough strength to do this. For this reason a Stormcloak victory is what "plays right into the Dominion's hands" more than an Imperial victory, as it fractures the Dominion's greatest obstacle (the Empire) even further, and therefore significantly decreases the chance that the Thalmor may be opposed and their plans stopped. Even in the event the Stormcloaks can muster enough strength to guard Skyrim's borders against the Dominion (in itself unlikely), the Thalmor can still accomplish their goals and unravel creation. Ulfric is not a Thalmor agent, but he most certainly is a Thalmor asset: whether he loses, continues to fight, or wins, the Empire is weakened to a varying degree and the Dominion's goals are furthered.

 

On the Empire: the White-Gold Concordat was signed because the Empire had no choice from its perspective. The Emperor had no way of knowing that the Dominion had suffered a great loss in Lord Naarifin and Lady Arannelya's hosts, but he certainly did know that the Legions were severely depleted, Cyrodiil was all but razed to the ground, and the Imperial Fleet, if it had any ships left, could not even hope to assault the Summerset Isles. All Titus II knew was that if he did not sign the Concordat, there was a very good chance that the Dominion would send more armies from the Isles and completely destroy the Empire. He could not risk this chance. What should be kept in mind is that the Emperor knew, as did the Imperial Legion, that a Second Great War was ultimately inevitable. In signing the Concordat he was not giving up, but buying time for his Empire to recover from the War, lick its wounds, and hopefully present the best possible defense for when the Dominion invaded again. It should be stressed that going to war before the Empire is ready for it defeats the entire purpose of the endeavor.

[Kraeten]

At the same time, Galmar is an attack dog. He is a relatively unstable man who is more than willing to slaughter his own countrymen for uncertainty, and seems to actually relish the thought of war. He is a racist, violent and impulsive brute who can't really be taken as an example of the Stormcloaks, or their actions/intents as a whole.

 

 

Galmar's charms are lost on some people, obviously. Galmar is Ulfric's chief leftenant and most loyal soldier. He would not command Ulfric's forces in the field if he didn't have the full support of Ulfric and the Stormcloaks in general. I might also add that Galmar can be something of a poet when he's so inclined. I never saw Rikke recite poetry, until Sovengarde at least.

 

So an event which does not happen in the game, which was CUT and had to be mined out and finished by modders, shows that the Stormclaks are more willing to fight the Dominion? If mods count, I guess all Dragons look like Randy Savage.

 

As previously explained, Ondolemar does die when the Stormcloaks take the city. As for why I consider the Civil War Overhaul canon in this instance, that's easy enough to answer. Bethesda actually had the voice actors come in and record the dialogue for Ondolemar's exection. It's not some random fan who wrote or recorded dialgue for that scene in the Civil War Overhaul, that scene was 100% original content included on the disc. Considering Ondolemar dies in the vanilla game when the Stormcloaks take the city in the original game, as far as I'm concerned the execution scene simply shows us what we were previously denied from viewing but otherwise knew must have occured.

 

What's more, what do you think would happen if the Thalmor released the knowledge that Ulfric worked for them, willing or otherwise?

Absolutely nothing. The Stormcloaks could hardly have a lower regard for anything the Thalmor might state via messenger or decree.

 

For this reason a Stormcloak victory is what "plays right into the Dominion's hands" more than an Imperial victory,

 

Just one problem with that argument, the Dossier explicitly states the Dominion doesn't favor one victory over the other. Better luck next time.

 

On the Empire: the White-Gold Concordat was signed because the Empire had no choice from its perspective.

 

It did, actually. On one hand it could maintain hostilities with the Dominion as Hammerfell was clearly prepared to, or it could adopt a policy of appeasement thereby making every single casualty of the war devoid of any purpose or value. If the Concordant proved anything, it was that the Emperor hadn't truly considered the concequences that might befall the Empire by declaring war against the Dominion. With the cost of the war impossible to ignore in the wake of the Battle of the Red Ring, the Empire could have stared boldly towards an uncertain future or it could blink and turn away. It blinked.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Kraeten

[TheVampireDante]

For this reason a Stormcloak victory is what "plays right into the Dominion's hands" more than an Imperial victory,

 

Just one problem with that argument, the Dossier explicitly states the Dominion doesn't favor one victory over the other. Better luck next time.

 

An ongoing state of war is their preferred outcome, for it to continue until practically nothing is left on either side - but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't have a "backup" choice from the other range of potential outcomes.

 

The Thalmor could see a Stormcloak victory as a suitable situation to manipulate - Even spreading false rumours about a leader is damaging. So imagine the Thalmor releasing their intel and dossiers to people, along with whatever other documentation and "testimonies" they could cook up to play Ulfric in the ongoing role as their puppet. A smear campaign can kill a leader and his men just as much as combat in the eyes of those that know how to play the politics game.

 

Something the Dominion does very well.

 

So while a victory for one side is not their desired outcome, they no doubt have plans on how to deal with those possibilities.

[117649AR]

 

Just one problem with that argument, the Dossier explicitly states the Dominion doesn't favor one victory over the other. Better luck next time.

 

On the Empire: the White-Gold Concordat was signed because the Empire had no choice from its perspective.

 

It did, actually. On one hand it could maintain hostilities with the Dominion as Hammerfell was clearly prepared to, or it could adopt a policy of appeasement thereby making every single casualty of the war devoid of any purpose or value. If the Concordant proved anything, it was that the Emperor hadn't truly considered the concequences that might befall the Empire by declaring war against the Dominion. With the cost of the war impossible to ignore in the wake of the Battle of the Red Ring, the Empire could have stared boldly towards an uncertain future or it could blink and turn away. It blinked.

 

 

Obviously the Dominion favors a prolonged conflict: thus, a victory by either side is not ideal. Note, not favoring a victory by either side does not mean that a Stormcloak victory is somehow a great defeat. As I've said, no matter the outcome, the events of the Civil War still present a Dominion victory: an Imperial victory is simply the least damaging to the ability of the Empire to withstand another Aldmeri Invasion. And here I quote myself, because I'm more or less repeating all of the points I've previously made:

 

"No one has any reason to believe that they could surely succeed against the Dominion, and for good reason. However, it is fact that the Empire is very literally the only other faction in Tamriel that has the military might and political influence to even challenge the Aldmeri Dominion, let alone hope to hold the line against it. Keep in mind that Hammerfell did not, and could not, drive out the Dominion's Armies alone: the Imperial Legions, led by Titus Mede II, had previously broken the back of the Aldmeri Armies operating on the mainland, including Lady Arannelya's host in Hammerfell. General Decianus' Legion subsequently left behind a large number of Legion veterans on the false pretense of medical discharges before departing the province, who together with native Redguard forces, skirmished with retreating Dominion forces across the Alik'r Desert. Even with the Dominion host in Hammerfell being battered and broken however, the Redguard forces and the Legionnaires left behind to defend Hammerfell could only manage to fight those remnants to a standstill in the wake of the White-Gold Concordat before the Dominion retreated, having accomplished most of its goals for the campaign. The Stormcloaks have been fighting their fellow Nords and the Legion for some time, and even in the event that they do win out against the Legion, still have a very large pro-Imperial insurgency to combat within their borders. They do not have the strength to do much of anything, let alone defend themselves from the greatest military force this side of the planet without the support of the Legion."

 

 

The Emperor did not blindly declare war upon the Dominion, he had war declared upon his nation when he refused the terms of an at-the-time ridiculous treaty. And if the Battle of the Red Ring proved anything, it was the shrewd leadership of Emperor Titus Mede II, and how great a military leader he was in spite of having lived a life of politics rather than war: again, the Empire had no way of knowing, and had no reason to believe, that the defeats of Lord Naarifin and Lady Arannelya were major blows to the Dominion's military. When the treaty was presented again, Emperor Mede had two choices presented to him: acceptance or destruction. It is a terrible leader that risks the lives of thousands of his subjects for the sake of posturing and an appearance of resolution, and a great one who makes a difficult decision for the sake of his nation even in spite of the fact that he may be hated, and saves those lives instead.

Edited February 25, 2015 by 117649AR