Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Lachdonin]

I'm pretty sure that the Imperials have no idea that the PC is a known enemy of the Empire - nor did they care:

 

a) This is a day and age where the enemy combatant is in uniform - hence he's known. Soldiers in this day and age don't hide their allegiance, they wear that uniform proudly.

b) You have to at least KNOW who the known enemy is.......Umm, Captain, he's not on the list.... Forget the list, he goes to the block!!!!

c) A known enemy of the Empire would have been hauled back to Imperial capital and made an example of, not hastily and secretively executed with virtually no witnesses.

d) If the PC is a known enemy of the Empire slated for execution, why would anyone even entertain allegiance with the Empire from that point forward?

 

A; Wrong. Julius Ceasar was the general i know of to write about how fighting unidentifiable enemies was demoralising to a regimented force. That shows that 'plain clothes' combatants have existed for thousands of years, and it is not a new paradigm of warfare. Furthermore, just because you are not in uniform at the time does not mean you are not an enemy. Uniforms aren't glued to your back.

 

B; Again, totally wrong. Revolutionary and insurrectionist forces typically hide amongst the general population. Again, this has happened THROUGHOUT history, and was known to be a tactic used by Jewish revolutionaries during Rome's occupation. Struggling to know and identify the enemy, against insurrectionists, has been a long-standing problem for any state organization, and for most of history the Captains reaction to the situation was perfectly acceptable.

 

C; This has been covered before, but the growing consensus (on the Bethesda Forums and /r/TESlore) is that the execution was because of the Thalmor presence. We know the Thalmor have a vested interested in keeping the rebellion going, and that they have technical jurisdiction over all 'Talos Worshipers' in Skyrim. Their presence in Helgen, though not at the Execution, is suspicious if you believe that they were, as Ralof indicates, behind it. It is also strange that Ulfric would be so far south, when the Imperial capital of Skyrim is along the north roads. He was clearly carting Ulfric to the Imperial City when he caught wind the Thalmor were coming to relive him of custody, and the execution was a spur of the moment decision to prevent the Dominion from 'losing' a valuable prisoner.

 

D; Did you miss the part about Dragons? Enemy or not, the PC survives Helgen, and then goes to see the Legion anyway. In fact, Tullius says to your face that you're either very brave, or very stupid, but gives you a chance with chump jobs. It should be noted that there were supposed to be 3 additional missions between joining a faction and the Jagged Crown, one of which, for the Empire, was befriending a Giant. The overall intent has both leaders trusting you far less, and with more of a drive to prove your worth...

[reallancem]

Still don't get it when people say Titus Meade II was spineless for signing the White-Gold Concordant. While Ulfric was captured by the Thalmor (and was partially responsible for the sack of the Imperial City), Meade led legions of Nords and Bretons from the north in a master-stroke to take back the City. So while Ulfric was busy making a deal with the Thalmor for his release, Meade was busy hanging the Dominion's commander from the White Gold Tower for 33 days.

[theconquistidor]

Still don't get it when people say Titus Meade II was spineless for signing the White-Gold Concordant. While Ulfric was captured by the Thalmor (and was partially responsible for the sack of the Imperial City), Meade led legions of Nords and Bretons from the north in a master-stroke to take back the City. So while Ulfric was busy making a deal with the Thalmor for his release, Meade was busy hanging the Dominion's commander from the White Gold Tower for 33 days.

Ulfric actually wasn't responsible. The dossier claims that the city fell before he gave away the information but he was lied to and told that his information was vital in the collapse of the city in order to mess with his psyche and guilt him. Still think Meade's a pansy and he is in no comparison to the Septims that proceeded him.

[reallancem]

 

Still don't get it when people say Titus Meade II was spineless for signing the White-Gold Concordant. While Ulfric was captured by the Thalmor (and was partially responsible for the sack of the Imperial City), Meade led legions of Nords and Bretons from the north in a master-stroke to take back the City. So while Ulfric was busy making a deal with the Thalmor for his release, Meade was busy hanging the Dominion's commander from the White Gold Tower for 33 days.

Ulfric actually wasn't responsible. The dossier claims that the city fell before he gave away the information but he was lied to and told that his information was vital in the collapse of the city in order to mess with his psyche and guilt him. Still think Meade's a pansy and he is in no comparison to the Septims that proceeded him.

 

 

If he were to agree to the Dominion's demands before the war, civil war would've erupted.

If he didn't sign the Concordant, the Dominion would've pounded Cyrodill until defeat due to both High Rock and Skyrim running lower on troops since the Battle of Red Ring.

If he didn't kick out High Rock, more unsustainable warfare.

But I will definitely agree that he pales in comparison to the Septims preceeding the assassination of Ocato. Then again, what more can you really do when some High Elf s!@£ walks into your palace with a bunch of severed heads lol

[Lachdonin]

 

 

Still don't get it when people say Titus Meade II was spineless for signing the White-Gold Concordant. While Ulfric was captured by the Thalmor (and was partially responsible for the sack of the Imperial City), Meade led legions of Nords and Bretons from the north in a master-stroke to take back the City. So while Ulfric was busy making a deal with the Thalmor for his release, Meade was busy hanging the Dominion's commander from the White Gold Tower for 33 days.

Ulfric actually wasn't responsible. The dossier claims that the city fell before he gave away the information but he was lied to and told that his information was vital in the collapse of the city in order to mess with his psyche and guilt him. Still think Meade's a pansy and he is in no comparison to the Septims that proceeded him.

 

 

If he were to agree to the Dominion's demands before the war, civil war would've erupted.

If he didn't sign the Concordant, the Dominion would've pounded Cyrodill until defeat due to both High Rock and Skyrim running lower on troops since the Battle of Red Ring.

If he didn't kick out Hammerfell, more unsustainable warfare.

But I will definitely agree that he pales in comparison to the Septims preceeding the assassination of Ocato. Then again, what more can you really do when some High Elf flirt walks into your palace with a bunch of severed heads lol

 

 

Tweaked that for ya.

[BrettM]

 

If he didn't sign the Concordant, the Dominion would've pounded Cyrodill until defeat due to both High Rock and Skyrim running lower on troops since the Battle of Red Ring.

 

What, exactly, would the Dominion have pounded them with? The Empire had pretty much wiped out their armies and their greatest generals. According to The Great War "the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed." Hammerfell was able to handle the forces sent against that province. I don't believe any forces were ever sent against Skyrim or High Rock.

 

So, even though the Legions were decimated and unable to continue the fight, there doesn't seem to have been anyone left TO fight. Again, The Great War states that the Thalmor had committed "all available forces" to attacking Cyrodiil, and those forces were "completely destroyed". Was the Dominion somehow going to attack with UN-available forces if Meade didn't completely surrender?

 

The Empire was pretty powerful and the Dominion had to give everything they had to give to have a chance of conquering it. They did. They failed. Meade won the war and then acted as if he had lost. Methinks there was some skulduggery involved with snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

[Valkasha]

I'm pretty sure that wasn't the full invasion force wiped out, but a very large portion indeed, like a third. However the empire didn't have the resources to keep up the fight while the Aldmeri dominion did. It wasn't cowardice, it was a move that prevented the empire from collapsing. Sure they might have won some more battles and even forced the aldmeri dominion to retreat, but what then? With the empires resources exhausted it would collapse from civil war or get taken out by some other force waiting to seize power.

[Lachdonin]

What sources we have indicate that the invasion of Cyrodiil was a diversion, but when it proved highly successful the Dominion committed almost all of its resources to that front, leaving a token force in Hammerfell to try to distract the Legion. When their army was annihilated at the Battle of the Red Ring, the Domminion likely lost the overwhelming majority of their military, save for the Alinor navy (which is undefeated in all of history) and whatever forces remained in Hammerfell.

 

Regardless, the Empire's army was decimated, with at least 4 legions totally wiped out and no others above half strength, and it's entire infrastructure was in ruins. Neither side was really fit for a continued fight, though the Dominion has the ability to refit and resupply. Under normal circumstances, i would say they still had the upper hand... armies are not that hard to train.

[MidbossVyers]

While most races can join the Legion, it doesn't meant that they can't join the Stormcloaks. I'll break it down per race.

Nord: Obvious

Imperial: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Farmer_%28NPC%29 Second farmer http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Reburrus_Quintilius

Redguard: See various Treaties of Stros M'Kai. To Redguards, the only way that the Empire will sit down and listen is if they have their @$$es handed to them soundly.

Breton: In High Rock: Ulfric sent letters to High Rock asking for help. Jarl Skald repeatedly asks his court mage to join the war. In the Reach: Yes, the Silver-Bloods attempted to enslave the Forsworn, but Igmund or his father (both Imperial supporters) attempted to have them all executed.

Argonian: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Teeba-Ei

Khajiit: Really, neither, so a Khajiit looking to join the Civil War really should just flip a coin.

Wood Elf: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Anuriel

High Elf: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Captain_Valmir Can pass for one, at least.
Orc: Back in the day, several Orcs supported the Empire, but so did many current Stormcloaks. Nowadays, several Orcs have connections with the Silver-Bloods: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Mulush_gro-Shugurz http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Urzoga_gra-Shugurz

Dark Elf: OK, hard one. Maybe, the Stormcloaks are stauncher allies in the Dark Elves' eventual war with the Argonians occupying Morrowind? Yeah, that one's a stretch.

Anyway, apart from Dark Elves, most of the other races have reasons to support the Stormcloaks or are already doing so.

[fraquar]

Lachdonin, isn't this the same source you are dismissing in the other thread? i.e. The Great War, written by a guy that fought at the battle of Red Ring?

 

Can't have it both ways, i.e. use it as a source to support your position here, and totally dismiss it in another thread.

 

 

 

One book which is vague on details does not invalidate more than a dozen other in-game sources, and the word of the developers.

Edited September 1, 2014 by fraquar