Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Elimc]

@Kimera

 

You completely misunderstood me. I was saying that either the book is wrong, or that Igmund waited to start killing the reachmen until after Ulfric was arrested.

 

@Lachdonin

 

On your first point, if Braig was arrested after Ulfric left, how do we know that Ulfric wasn't unwilling to start arresting innocents, forcing Igmund to wait until he was betrayed.

 

For your second point, when someone mentions a Jarl they are probably referring to the Jarl of the city that they are in, not somebody who became Jarl 15 years later. And if you say that Braig was not arrested while Ulfric was there, then how can you blame Ulfric for killing innocent Reachmen, if he didn't kill any.

 

In point number three you claim that most of the Reachmen are rebelling against the Nords, but it think that it is a relatively small percentage of Reachmen who have joined the Forsworn.

 

I don't see how you can do the quest for Boethia and claim that he is "good". And the Nords aren't actively trying to wipe out Daedra worshipers, they just don't like them.

 

Edit:

@Kimera

 

The empire has allowed Thalmor into Skyrim and sent a Legion to quell a rebellion. I think that there is a relatively high amount of Imperial influence in skyrim.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Elimc

[kimmera]

@Kimera

 

You completely misunderstood me. I was saying that either the book is wrong, or that Igmund waited to start killing the reachmen until after Ulfric was arrested.

 

 

Edit:

@Kimera

 

The empire has allowed Thalmor into Skyrim and sent a Legion to quell a rebellion. I think that there is a relatively high amount of Imperial influence in skyrim.

 

The book has to be wrong, since Ulfric was arrested for his actions at that incident. Or the 23 years is wrong, which is more likely since I haven't seen any formal calenders anywhere in any of the games.

 

 

Influence does not equal control. Yes there is influence, but the Jarls still act pretty much autonomously. They have their own independent municipal forces rather than each having its own legion garrison. There isn't so much as a Legion outpost at most cities in Skyrim. Laws cannot be enforced without maintaining a formal presence with sufficient coverage to enforce the law. And the war isn't an excuse for the weak presence either. There aren't even abandoned offices or outposts, nor even a token presence in Empire friendly cities other than Solitude.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

The Empire let the Thalmor into Skyrim, and the Thalmor have enough influence to arrest and kill anyone for anything in Imperial holds without fear of anything.

[117649AR]

 

@Kimera

 

You completely misunderstood me. I was saying that either the book is wrong, or that Igmund waited to start killing the reachmen until after Ulfric was arrested.

 

 

Edit:

@Kimera

 

The empire has allowed Thalmor into Skyrim and sent a Legion to quell a rebellion. I think that there is a relatively high amount of Imperial influence in skyrim.

 

The book has to be wrong, since Ulfric was arrested for his actions at that incident. Or the 23 years is wrong, which is more likely since I haven't seen any formal calenders anywhere in any of the games.

 

 

Influence does not equal control. Yes there is influence, but the Jarls still act pretty much autonomously. They have their own independent municipal forces rather than each having its own legion garrison. There isn't so much as a Legion outpost at most cities in Skyrim. Laws cannot be enforced without maintaining a formal presence with sufficient coverage to enforce the law. And the war isn't an excuse for the weak presence either. There aren't even abandoned offices or outposts, nor even a token presence in Empire friendly cities other than Solitude.

 

The Empire (as in, the Imperial Government or the Legion) has never had a pervasive presence in any of the provinces that were not troubled by unrest. Many of the Imperial Provinces enjoy a very great deal of autonomy, and local nobles, lords, and kings are more or less free to govern as they see fit within the bounds of Imperial Law. Skyrim has traditionally always been a part of the (third) Empire, and has always been a secure part of its foundations: the Legions have never really had cause to have a significant presence there, and the Holds and their Jarls have traditionally handled much of their own affairs. Even with the Civil War in Skyrim, a very large portion of the Legion's forces in the region are derived from local recruits supported by Hold Militiamen.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

The Empire let the Thalmor into Skyrim, and the Thalmor have enough influence to arrest and kill anyone for anything in Imperial holds without fear of anything.

 

Those are very small patrols. How do you propose the Empire stop that kind of infiltration? Note the Thalmor do not try that kind of thing in any cities, not even in Solitude where the Empire has a formal presence. There is no evidence that the Empire allows this in any way other than by way of lack of resources to prevent it.

 

By your logic, the Empire also 'lets' vampires in, and crime, and the Foresworn, and, and, and....

[kimmera]

 

 

@Kimera

 

You completely misunderstood me. I was saying that either the book is wrong, or that Igmund waited to start killing the reachmen until after Ulfric was arrested.

 

 

Edit:

@Kimera

 

The empire has allowed Thalmor into Skyrim and sent a Legion to quell a rebellion. I think that there is a relatively high amount of Imperial influence in skyrim.

 

The book has to be wrong, since Ulfric was arrested for his actions at that incident. Or the 23 years is wrong, which is more likely since I haven't seen any formal calenders anywhere in any of the games.

 

 

Influence does not equal control. Yes there is influence, but the Jarls still act pretty much autonomously. They have their own independent municipal forces rather than each having its own legion garrison. There isn't so much as a Legion outpost at most cities in Skyrim. Laws cannot be enforced without maintaining a formal presence with sufficient coverage to enforce the law. And the war isn't an excuse for the weak presence either. There aren't even abandoned offices or outposts, nor even a token presence in Empire friendly cities other than Solitude.

 

The Empire (as in, the Imperial Government or the Legion) has never had a pervasive presence in any of the provinces that were not troubled by unrest. Many of the Imperial Provinces enjoy a very great deal of autonomy, and local nobles, lords, and kings are more or less free to govern as they see fit within the bounds of Imperial Law. Skyrim has traditionally always been a part of the (third) Empire, and has always been a secure part of its foundations: the Legions have never really had cause to have a significant presence there, and the Holds and their Jarls have traditionally handled much of their own affairs. Even with the Civil War in Skyrim, a very large portion of the Legion's forces in the region are derived from local recruits supported by Hold Militiamen.

 

 

This is no different than what I said earlier. Hong Kong was part of China before it became British territory. It was part of that RL Empire. However due to distance and geography, it was left to be (mostly) autonomous, as long as taxes flowed properly.

[Lachdonin]

 

I don't see how you can do the quest for Boethia and claim that he is "good". And the Nords aren't actively trying to wipe out Daedra worshipers, they just don't like them.

 

'Good' is loosely defined. Azura, Boethia and Mephala are the patrons of the Dunmer, and are 'offically' stated as 'The Good Draedra'. That said, ALL Draedra worship, of all kinds, has been outlawed in Cyrodiil since the Second Empire, and in Tamriel in general since practically forever. Only the Dunmer got a pass, partly because they didn't actually worship the Daedra at the time, and partly because they handed over the freaking Numidium in exchange for special dispensation.

 

'Good' and 'Bad' also doesn't apply to any of the Et'ada. Did you know Akatosh and Kynnareth sent a murderous cyborg back in time to help Allessia? Pelinal was refered to a as a 'Walking Pogrum' whose murderous rampages were specifically designed for the purpose of genocide. He slaughtered anything that LOOKED Altmer with impunity. And what of Meridia? Did you know she had a hand in creating Mehrunes Dagon? Did you know Namira is responsible for the miracle of birth? Or that Boethia's most beloved champions were a Healer and a benevolent ruler?

 

Hercine, Namira and Mehrunes Dagon ARE the same as Mara, Akatosh and Dibella, because all Et'ada are by their very nature Amoral entities which span the entire spectrum of right and wrong, good and evil. Persecution of any religion or faith in Tamriel is equal to the persecution of any other, because morality doesn't apply to the divine.

 

 

 

In point number three you claim that most of the Reachmen are rebelling against the Nords, but it think that it is a relatively small percentage of Reachmen who have joined the Forsworn.

 

Volume isn't as important as the fact that they remained opposed, while Skyrim has been a willing participant. The Stormcloaks (Loyal vassals who had never opposed the Empire) put down a revolt by people who had always opposed foreign rule, and then start their own rebellion against the Empire as if it is somehow more ethically justified than the revolt in the Reach.

 

 

For your second point, when someone mentions a Jarl they are probably referring to the Jarl of the city that they are in, not somebody who became Jarl 15 years later. And if you say that Braig was not arrested while Ulfric was there, then how can you blame Ulfric for killing innocent Reachmen, if he didn't kill any.

 

The ONLY two souces we have about the actual events in Markarth are the book The Bear of Markarth and Madanach. The book indicates that Ulfric executed every Reachman who did not assist the Nords, not only those who revolted. Madanach states that 'Retribution was swift'. We also know that Ulfric held the city for a short time AFTER taking it, until Igmund (and presumably the other Jarls) acquiesced to the reinstatement of Talos.

 

Sitting around waiting for politics to churn on is not swift retribution. Nowhere, anywhere, does anyone dispute the claims in The Bear of Markarth. Those we can conclusively place at the event don't, and the only person who even mentions a Jarl is clearly unrelated, or addled, because he doesn't even know what year it is.

 

 

On your first point, if Braig was arrested after Ulfric left, how do we know that Ulfric wasn't unwilling to start arresting innocents, forcing Igmund to wait until he was betrayed.

 

Ulfric didn't leave. Ulfric was arrested and transported elsewhere. There's a bit of a difference between objecting to the slaughter of innocent people (which there is no evidence of him doing) and being hauled off in chains.

 

 

 

The empire has allowed Thalmor into Skyrim and sent a Legion to quell a rebellion. I think that there is a relatively high amount of Imperial influence in skyrim.

 

The Empire has aloud foreign dignitaries, along with their security staff, into Skyrim to ensure treaty obligations are upheld. It's no different than American Economic Regulators and Health Inspectors operating in Canada to ensure imports meat agreed upon standards.

 

And the Empire has not sent a Legion to quell a rebellion. They've sent a few officers, who are recruiting locally. That's a mite different than sending an actual army to quell the rebellion.

 

 

@Kimmera

 

The Empire let the Thalmor into Skyrim, and the Thalmor have enough influence to arrest and kill anyone for anything in Imperial holds without fear of anything.

 

And again, no they do not. The only instances we see of the Thalmor operating in official capacity is in diplomatic oversight, and prisoner transfer. Everything else is highly illegal, which the Legion could probably pay attention to if they weren't busy with a rebellion by a bunch of ice-brained hypocrites.

[Elimc]

@Lachdonin

 

Boethia does require human sacrifce, so i wouldn't want somebody worshiping him near me. Since the Forsworn worship him, it is perfectly reasonable to ban their religon.

 

The Nords revolt was much more justified than the Forsworn's, because nobody had been arresting and killing Forsworn without a reason. The Thalmor have been doing this to the Nords with the full approval(or at least permission) of the Empire.

 

Madanach is probably talking about himself being imprisoned, along with the other Forsworn. He does not say that Ulfric killed any civilians, just that he and his lieutenants were either killed or arrested swiftly.

 

And Ulfric still left Markarth, leaving in chains or in a limo is still leaving. And since he cannot be guilty of any of the crimes that happened after he left, this puts doubt on either his guilt or the credibility of the book.

 

And I have to go now so i will adress your other points later

[MidbossVyers]

Again, is Daedra worship directly illegal? Besides, for murders and other crimes connected to Daedra worship, the only people that I find directly hunting Daedra worshipers just for non-violent worship are vigilante groups.

[kimmera]

@Lachdonin

 

Boethia does require human sacrifce, so i wouldn't want somebody worshiping him near me. Since the Forsworn worship him, it is perfectly reasonable to ban their religon.

 

The Nords revolt was much more justified than the Forsworn's, because nobody had been arresting and killing Forsworn without a reason. The Thalmor have been doing this to the Nords with the full approval(or at least permission) of the Empire.

 

Madanach is probably talking about himself being imprisoned, along with the other Forsworn. He does not say that Ulfric killed any civilians, just that he and his lieutenants were either killed or arrested swiftly.

 

And Ulfric still left Markarth, leaving in chains or in a limo is still leaving. And since he cannot be guilty of any of the crimes that happened after he left, this puts doubt on either his guilt or the credibility of the book.

 

And I have to go now so i will adress your other points later

 

You still haven't explained what it is you think Ulfric was arrested for. We are told that it was for his actions at Markarth, and the only contradictory evidence you have is someone who has been in jail for an extended period of time with no access to calendars telling you their daughter's age. Wouldn't Ulfric's arrest be considered important enough history that if it was for something else, it would still have been worthy of mention at least somewhere? He was the son of a Jarl and a prominent commander at the time.

 

Attacking the Foresworn was Empire sanctioned, so simply leading the assault in the first place wouldn't have got him arrested. There had to have been something happen there. So if it wasn't the massacre, what was it and why isn't it noted somewhere?