Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

It was the Empire that promised Ulfric freedom to worship Talos, otherwise Igmund wouldn't say "we" all the time when talking about the incident. And he is reliable because he has no reason to lie. He is against Ulfric, so why would he lie to make Ulfric look good? Just because he is a bad ruler doesn't make him unable to remember stuff.

 

My point was that he is only officially against Ulfric. That was my point when I pointed out how quickly he dismisses the advice to eliminate the Silverbloods.

 

If it was the Empire that made the promise directly, wouldn't it have been the Legion that retook the city, and if so how in blazes would Ulfric have gotten even any initial Talos worship? How could he have refused to surrender the city unless the Empire agreed to keep Igmund's bargain if the city was garrisoned by Legion soldiers instead of Ulfric's personal local troops? Igmund claims the Empire turned its back on the region.

 

As for we, he doesn't say 'The Empire' he says 'we' which means he had a hand in in even if the Empire did as well. Igmund also claims there were attempts at peace treaties with the Foresworn, while holding their leader in his jail.

[Lachdonin]

The Thalmor arrested one of the Grey-Manes(i forgot who) for no reason, so they can arrest anyone. They also arrest Ogmund in Markarth

The Thalmor took custody of a captured Stormcloak (the Greymane boy) who was a self professed Talos Worshipper.

 

They also have you investigate Ogmund because he is suspected to be a Talos Worshipper. Which, he turns out to be.

 

Both instances are examples of treaty enforcement. They are not evidence of the Thalmkr having carte cbance to arrest, torture and execute anyone they want. Hell, they even require EVIDENCE before Ogmund can be arrested. That's not exactly representative of them having absolute power to do whatever they please.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Igmund made the promise to Ulfric, with full knowledge and support of the Empire. Since this was just after the Great War, the Empire was nearly broke and their troops were being stationed on the border with the Thalmor. Because of this, they hired Ulfric and paid him with religous freedom instead of gold. Then the Thalmor found out, and forced the Empire to order Igmund to arrest Ulfric or declare war on the AD. Igmund arrested Ulfric, and the Thalmor used that as an excuse to have a large presence in Skyrim.

 

@Lachdonin

 

What about all those Stormcloacks who say "My cousin dissapeared one night. Some say the Thalmor grabbed him. Wasn't long before I found myself under Ulfric's banner."

[Lachdonin]

 

@Lachdonin

 

What about all those Stormcloacks who say "My cousin dissapeared one night. Some say the Thalmor grabbed him. Wasn't long before I found myself under Ulfric's banner."

 

In a world full of trolls, bandits, Draugr and Falmer (who we have evidence have, in fact, been doing surface raids) there is no way to prove it's the Thalmor. There are a dozen more likely explanations, particularly with what we've seen of the Thalmor.

 

But even if it IS the Thalmor, you are ignoring the point that their OFFICIAL duties are only prisoner transfer and treaty enforcement. That they are also conducting blatantly illegal actions, such as the raid in Riften and the attack on the shrine south of Riverwood is more an issue of the Stormcloaks distracting the Legion than the Empire willingly allowing the Thalmor to abduct and murder it's people.

 

 

Igmund made the promise to Ulfric, with full knowledge and support of the Empire. Since this was just after the Great War, the Empire was nearly broke and their troops were being stationed on the border with the Thalmor. Because of this, they hired Ulfric and paid him with religous freedom instead of gold. Then the Thalmor found out, and forced the Empire to order Igmund to arrest Ulfric or declare war on the AD. Igmund arrested Ulfric, and the Thalmor used that as an excuse to have a large presence in Skyrim."

 

Evidence? All we have in-game argues otherwise. Igmund indicates the Empire wouldn't help, and that Ulfric acted of his own accord. The Bear of Markarth supports the sequence of events by having Ulfric attack without sanction as the Empire was considering allowing the Reachmen to officially have Markarth (likely because they didn't have the troops to spare).

 

Nowhere, anywhere, does anyone state that the Empire dispatched Ulfric to do the job. All the information we have indicates that the Empire came in only after Ulfric had taken the city.

 

Igmund's use of 'We' when referring to the decision to allow Talos Worship is also vague, because the 'We' is never defined. It's curious, however, that he never seems to associate himself or his people with the Empire and the Legion in the same way. 'We' seems to be directed more towards the collective Nord identity than the Empire, indicating that he may be referring to the Moot and the other Jarls.

[Elimc]

@Lachdonin

 

So you think if the Empire wins the civil war, and Elisif notices that the Thalmor are killing people for no reason, then TMII or the Elder Council will suddenly accuse the AD of breaking the treaty and go to war with them. That is so unlikely it is hilarious. More likely the Thalmor would just kill Elisif too.

 

Why do you keep citing the Bear of Markarth as if it isn't complete Imperial propaganda? And I never said the Empire hired Ulfric, only that they knew about the deal and did nothing to stop it. Then when the Thalmor found out, they betrayed Ulfric. And I think it is much more likely the "we" refers to himself and the Empire, not himself and the other Jarls. But that whole point is complete speculation.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Elimc

[117649AR]

@Lachdonin

 

So you think if the Empire wins the civil war, and Elisif notices that the Thalmor are killing people for no reason, then TMII or the Elder Council will suddenly accuse the AD of breaking the treaty and go to war with them. That is so unlikely it is hilarious. More likely the Thalmor would just kill Elisif too.

 

Why do you keep citing the Bear of Markarth as if it isn't complete Imperial propaganda? And I never said the Empire hired Ulfric, only that they knew about the deal and did nothing to stop it. Then when the Thalmor found out, they betrayed Ulfric. And I think it is much more likely the "we" refers to himself and the Empire, not himself and the other Jarls. But that whole point is complete speculation.

 

You're severely overestimating the influence the Thalmor have in Imperial decisionmaking processes. Keep in mind that the Dominion does not have free reign to operate within the Empire, even to enforce the Concordat: the Justiciars are only permitted to operate in Skyrim, and even then were only allowed to do so due to the ongoing Civil War. There is a reason the Dominion organized the secession of Hammerfell and the Civil War in Skyrim: even in defeat the Empire is a powerful threat to Dominion goals,and the Thalmor do not control Emperor Mede or the Council. You're also misunderstanding Emperor Mede's character: he is a man who cares greatly for his people and the Imperial Dream, and was willing to risk his life in the Great War and then his public perception in the signing of the Concordat for the sake of the Empire's survival. While the Second Great War would not begin immediately, Mede would not stand idly as the Dominion killed, tortured, and kidnapped innocent citizens.

[Elimc]

@117649AR

 

Do you really think the Empire would declare war on the AD just because they kidnapped/killed a few Nords illegally? And the Dominion did operate in Skyrim before the Civil War, and even before the Markarth Incident they had a presence in Skyrim, just not as big as they do now. And if the Empire is so unaffected by the Thalmor, why does Tullius bring Elenwyn with him to the peace council? Also, Mede did not risk his own life in the Great War, he risked the lives of his men, and then made all of their sacrifices worthless by surrendering to the AD immeadiately after winning a major battle. And he does stand idly by as the Dominion kills, tortures, and kidnaps citizens. What do you think Northwatch Keep is? And neither Tullius nor Mede do anything about closing it down, Tullius can't even get the Thalmor to release a prisoner.

[MidbossVyers]

Actually, doing the Missing in Action quest as a Legionnaire will allow Tullius to write a "hall pass" permitting the release of Thorald.

[pleasenoname]

But he says there will be consequences for it, kinda like the Thalmor are his boss.

[Lachdonin]

But he says there will be consequences for it, kinda like the Thalmor are his boss.

 

Or kinda like he's breaking the rules and he knows it. Thorald is a Talos Worshipper. The Thalmor have jurisdiction over Thalmor Worshippers. It has nothing to do with the Thalmor being his boss, it's about following the treaty.

 

You think Canadian authorities could just get away with releasing a prisoner who the Americans wanted in custody? The extradition treaty is pretty clear, we're supposed to send him south.

 

The same applies here. Tillius can push and get Thoral released, but he doesn't have legal authority over Talos Worshippers, while Elenwin does. You think he didn't face consequences for not handing Ulfric over in Helgen?