Elimc Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 @Lachdonin The WGC does not say that the punishment for worshiping Talos is death or that it is the Thalmor's job to interrogate suspected Talos worshipers. Furthermore, Thorald was not a known Talos worshiper, because when you release him he says the Thalmor were trying to get him to confess to worshiping Talos. If they had proof he worshiped Talos, then they probably would have killed him outright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 @Lachdonin The WGC does not say that the punishment for worshiping Talos is death or that it is the Thalmor's job to interrogate suspected Talos worshipers. Furthermore, Thorald was not a known Talos worshiper, because when you release him he says the Thalmor were trying to get him to confess to worshiping Talos. If they had proof he worshiped Talos, then they probably would have killed him outright. No, if they had proof (or a forced 'confession') they would have used it for political leverage. Simply killing him would have been a complete waste. Besides, I don't think there is any evidence they were holding him legally at all. As such they needed no excuse to kill him. It seems doubtful that they have sanction to torture innocent imperial citizens 'just in case' they might know something. The Empire signed a treaty. They didn't surrender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 It doesn't really matter how much evidence the court system has against someone, they still TRY to get a confession. That the Thalmor were using less amicable interrogation methods (though perfectly reasonable any time save for... oh... the last 60 years) doesn't change the fact that Thorald was an identified Talos Worshipper, confessed or not, and under the jurisdiction of the Thalmor. You're also misinterpreting how the Concordant and the Thalmor presence functions. The Thalmor are only there because the Empire REFUSED to enforce the ban. We are told by multiple sources that the Talos ban was not an issue until Ulfric stood on his idiot soap box (with some strong indications that with was with Thalmor urging). The Thalmor are only there because the Empire has shown its self unwilling to imprison it's own people for what basically constitutes heresy. The compromise to keep the treaty intact? The Thalmor get to do their own dirty work. It would be under better surveillance if the Legion were't busy with a civil war, mind you, and both Ulfric and Thorald are evidence of the fact that Tullius, as the representative of the Empire, still has final say, even if it means violating the treaty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 @Kimmera What the Thalmor would do to Thorald is pointless. The point is that they captured him with no evidence and the imperials did nothing. Also, the WGC was a surrender, just a conditional one. @Lachdonin Using torture to get confessions has not been widely used for at least 200 years(probably longer, but I dont feel like looking it up). Ulric freeing the Reach in exchange for religous freedom is hardly soapboxing. The Thalmor had contact with Ulric, that doesn't mean he knew he was helping them. And based on Tullius's dialoge, freeing Thorald just got two more people killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidbossVyers Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 2 more people, what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 It doesn't really matter how much evidence the court system has against someone, they still TRY to get a confession. That the Thalmor were using less amicable interrogation methods (though perfectly reasonable any time save for... oh... the last 60 years) doesn't change the fact that Thorald was an identified Talos Worshipper, confessed or not, and under the jurisdiction of the Thalmor. You're also misinterpreting how the Concordant and the Thalmor presence functions. The Thalmor are only there because the Empire REFUSED to enforce the ban. We are told by multiple sources that the Talos ban was not an issue until Ulfric stood on his idiot soap box (with some strong indications that with was with Thalmor urging). The Thalmor are only there because the Empire has shown its self unwilling to imprison it's own people for what basically constitutes heresy. The compromise to keep the treaty intact? The Thalmor get to do their own dirty work. It would be under better surveillance if the Legion were't busy with a civil war, mind you, and both Ulfric and Thorald are evidence of the fact that Tullius, as the representative of the Empire, still has final say, even if it means violating the treaty. My point was that they are interrogating him and creating secret dossiers. There is nothing from that situation that even implied any actual legal system or actual arrest. @Kimmera What the Thalmor would do to Thorald is pointless. The point is that they captured him with no evidence and the imperials did nothing. Also, the WGC was a surrender, just a conditional one. @Lachdonin Using torture to get confessions has not been widely used for at least 200 years(probably longer, but I dont feel like looking it up). Ulric freeing the Reach in exchange for religous freedom is hardly soapboxing. The Thalmor had contact with Ulric, that doesn't mean he knew he was helping them. And based on Tullius's dialoge, freeing Thorald just got two more people killed. You are assuming that the Empire knows. The dossier on Ulfric makes it clear that the Thalmor are operating under their own authority, not in conjunction with the Empire. There is nothing that suggests that the empire has any clue that he was captured. The blades were disbanded under the white gold concordat but I haven't found any reference to the members being branded criminals. Is there a lore source which actually states that the Thalmor have such authority? The wiki seems to assume they do, but the only source it quotes is the book 'The Great War' which doesn't give that level of detail of the Concordat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notmyhome Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Tullius does admit he can't do anything for Thorald, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 My point was that they are interrogating him and creating secret dossiers. There is nothing from that situation that even implied any actual legal system or actual arrest. True. Based on what little information we have regarding Thorald, the Justicars took custody of a prisoner suspected of being a Talos Worshipper. That fits with all their known LEGAL activities in Skyrim. They are there to enforce the ban on Talos, which the Empire has already shown it is unwilling to do. @Lachdonin Using torture to get confessions has not been widely used for at least 200 years(probably longer, but I dont feel like looking it up). It's not been LEGAL for about 250 years. It remained a common 'aggressive interrogation' technique in most developed countries until the mid 1950's, though certain governments still sanction its use in some circumstances. In fact, a certain someone keeps vetoing the definition of torture so they can keep using it... Ulric freeing the Reach in exchange for religous freedom is hardly soapboxing. The Thalmor had contact with Ulric, that doesn't mean he knew he was helping them. Ulfric has undeniably helped the Thalmor. There is absolutely no way to deny that, and they outright state it in his dossier. Has it been WILLINGLY? Probably not. He's a touch daft, hypocritical and short sighted, but he's not a willing conspirator. However, that does not mean that Thalmor manipulation could not have precipitated the entire Markarth incident, and the basic sequence of events seems to support the idea. If given the choice between him being stupid, or a Dominion spy, i'd prefer to pick the former explanation And based on Tullius's dialoge, freeing Thorald just got two more people killed. Tullius says no such thing. He says it's 'Not possible'. The unofficial patch fixes the diplomatic side of things (though i have to admit, if i accept it i have to accept the execution of Ondolemar) which which case he simply says it will cause headaches. The Thalmor themselves will freely tell you that the Imperial Legion can order the prisoner released if necessary. Everything basically indicates that the Legion, and the Empire, have final say within their own territory, and the Thalmor are given access for a single purpose. They are not, in any way, calling the shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 My point was that they are interrogating him and creating secret dossiers. There is nothing from that situation that even implied any actual legal system or actual arrest. True. Based on what little information we have regarding Thorald, the Justicars took custody of a prisoner suspected of being a Talos Worshipper. That fits with all their known LEGAL activities in Skyrim. They are there to enforce the ban on Talos, which the Empire has already shown it is unwilling to do. Tullius says no such thing. He says it's 'Not possible'. The unofficial patch fixes the diplomatic side of things (though i have to admit, if i accept it i have to accept the execution of Ondolemar) which which case he simply says it will cause headaches. The Thalmor themselves will freely tell you that the Imperial Legion can order the prisoner released if necessary. Everything basically indicates that the Legion, and the Empire, have final say within their own territory, and the Thalmor are given access for a single purpose. They are not, in any way, calling the shots. Thorwald is a Stormcloak supporter and may have been arrested for that. Interestingly, Tulius seemed to feel it important to report his being taken by the Thalmor to the Battle-borns rather than to his own family, suggesting they are the ones who reported him and had him arrested as part of their feud with the Grey-manes. It is not a given that the Thalmor were within their authority under the WGC, or if Tulius felt he wasn't in a position to defy them in the middle of a civil war, particularly since the prisoner is a Stormcloak supporter. It is also possible that Tulius wanted him interrogated but was either too busy or didn't want to get his hands dirty. If you want a RL analogy, I present to you a certain Canadian arrested on suspected links to the Taliban, handed over to the Americans, who handed him over to the Syrians for 'interrogation.' They never found any links, and he was eventually returned to Canada to tell his story (and sue the country). The Battle-Borns would be the Canadians, the Empire would be the Americans and the Thalmor would be playing the role of the Syrians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Interestingly, Tulius seemed to feel it important to report his being taken by the Thalmor to the Battle-borns rather than to his own family The missive paints more of an image of Tullius responding to inquiries made by a prominent Imperial-Aligned family. Idolaf indicates he looked into the fate of his old friend, and the best indications are that his inquiries were the reason the letter was sent at all. It's more a situation of another certain Canadian being arrested by Americans following an engagement, being taken into custody, and his 'parent nation' opting not to cause problems by letting things go at that (later resulting in a kangaroo court, a gross miscarriage of justice and numerous human rights problems) instead of demanding custody. The fact that Tullius CAN take custody, and that the Thalmor will turn Thorald over (if the glitch if repaired) is still a show of who has ultimate authority, whether they choose to exercise it or not. Theres also nothing to really indicate Tullius would need the Thalmor to torture anyone, nor is there any indication that they would share information with the Empire anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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