Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[MidbossVyers]

Well, was Tullius within earshot when the captain made the order? Also, Hadvar could have easily went behind the captain's back and told Tullius that the captain was going to sent a (relatively) innocent man/woman to their death (again, Tullius was right there, nearby, if not within earshot), but I suppose Hadvar didn't want to risk his own position for a stranger.

Edited April 14, 2015 by MidbossVyers

[Lachdonin]

Well, we first see Tullius near the gate, with Elenwen. We don't see him again until after the whole checklist thing, at the base of the tower for the executions. It's impossible to know if he's been within earshot during any part of it, though at the very least he's nowhere to be seen when you get off the wagon.

 

And yeah, Hadvar could have gone over the Captain's head and talked to Tullius about it personally... but there isn't exactly much time. It's not like they threw everyone in jail for a few hours while they got ready. Between the Captain's decision, and Alduin's attack, is about 3 minutes.

[kimmera]

Causal, not Casual.

 

 

 

Does Tullius bear some moral responsibility for the near execution of an unrelated, unprosecuted prisoner? Yes. But he is not the one who sent you to the block, and no commander or leader can be held unilaterally responsible for the actions of their subordinates. They are ONLY responsible for bad calls made with their knowledge.

 

Not countermanding the order is just as causal as giving the order. Commanders can be held unilaterally responsible for the actions of subordinates when they are on the scene and able to intervene. The Captain didn't just up and shoot you. They gave the order, then you are marched to the block at a walking pace with plenty of time for Tullius to order a different option.

 

You are speaking like Tullius was powerless in that situation to prevent the dragonborn's execution. He wasn't. This WAS made with his knowledge since he was there and he was in a position to reverse the order of his subordinate.

[kimmera]

Well, was Tullius within earshot when the captain made the order? Also, Hadvar could have easily went behind the captain's back and told Tullius that the captain was going to sent a (relatively) innocent man/woman to their death (again, Tullius was right there, nearby, if not within earshot), but I suppose Hadvar didn't want to risk his own position for a stranger.

 

 

Well, we first see Tullius near the gate, with Elenwen. We don't see him again until after the whole checklist thing, at the base of the tower for the executions. It's impossible to know if he's been within earshot during any part of it, though at the very least he's nowhere to be seen when you get off the wagon.

 

And yeah, Hadvar could have gone over the Captain's head and talked to Tullius about it personally... but there isn't exactly much time. It's not like they threw everyone in jail for a few hours while they got ready. Between the Captain's decision, and Alduin's attack, is about 3 minutes.

 

This is not just your execution but the execution of Ulfric as well. The prisoner before you shouted clearly "I am not with Ulfric this is a mistake" and was killed for trying to escape. The question what to do about you is not spoken quietly either but shouted between the underling with the list and the Captain.

 

And it seems unlikely that Tullius would just wander off rather than pay attention when dealing with the execution of Ulfric.

 

Furthermore, even if he did wander off, that is a decision too. If Ulfric's escape had gone differently, say, in classic movie hero/villain fashion his gag came off at the last minute and he was able to shout himself of the situation, then I'd expect people to be saying "He escaped right from under Tullius' nose" rather than "OMG the Dragons are back."

 

 

Edit: In fact, he is by the chopping block with Ulfric, in position to have heard if he had chosen to pay attention. You and the other prisoner are marched right past him without him saying "Wait, who are these two?" Like the Captain, he just seems to assume that they were in the same cart as Ulfric, so they must be Stormcloaks.

Edited April 14, 2015 by kimmera

[Elimc]

@Lachdonin

 

Tullius might not have refused to turn Ulfric over to the Thalmor, what if they were going to wait until everyone else was dead and then use Telekinesis to undo his bonds, allowing him to escape. That way no one would know that the Thalmor had any role in the war. This is all speculation, but we don't know that Tullius refused a request because we don't know if a request was even made.

[kimmera]

@Lachdonin

 

Tullius might not have refused to turn Ulfric over to the Thalmor, what if they were going to wait until everyone else was dead and then use Telekinesis to undo his bonds, allowing him to escape. That way no one would know that the Thalmor had any role in the war. This is all speculation, but we don't know that Tullius refused a request because we don't know if a request was even made.

 

There is plenty of evidence from the dossiers that the Thalmor still consider the Empire a threat. A dead Ulfric means an end to the civil war. A live Ulfric in the hands of the Thalmor does not necessarily mean an end to the civil war. And the Thalmor would likely just 'allow' Ulfric's 'escape' again to keep Skyrim divided.

[Elimc]

I am not saying the Thalmor didn't want to free Ulfric, I am saying that they didn't necessarily simply ask Tullius for his release, maybe they were trying to resort to other methods such as the one I described. After all, it would be bad if it were publicly known that they supported Ulfric.

[tnu]

I'm still waiting for a third option fo rthe Civil War that involves removing hte Empire and preventing the Stormcloaks from takin gpower.

[Lachdonin]

Kimmera... You clearly aren't familiar with either military chain of command, or the ethical burden of responsibility. Because of the camera angle, we have no way of knowing where Tullius was when Lokir makes a break for it, which makes it impossible to judge whether or not he was privy to any indication that a bad call was made. Furthermore, Lokir IS on the list, which makes him something of a non-issue... Even if Tullius witnesses it, a quick look at his own list would not a horse thief. He wouldn't have a reason to then pick through the entire list for discrepancies.

 

Unless it can be shown that Tullius was aware of the fact the Captain sends an unprocessed prisoner to he Block, there is no reason for Tullius to countermand her decision. A commanding officer is, again, not accountable for actions of his subordinates which happen without his knowledge.

 

I am not saying the Thalmor didn't want to free Ulfric, I am saying that they didn't necessarily simply ask Tullius for his release, maybe they were trying to resort to other methods such as the one I described. After all, it would be bad if it were publicly known that they supported Ulfric.

Far easier to kill their own men while 'transporting' Ulfric and have him 'escape'. Using magic to free him, surrounded by Imperials, isn't the best way to keep your star pawn alive.

[kimmera]

Kimmera... You clearly aren't familiar with either military chain of command, or the ethical burden of responsibility. Because of the camera angle, we have no way of knowing where Tullius was when Lokir makes a break for it, which makes it impossible to judge whether or not he was privy to any indication that a bad call was made. Furthermore, Lokir IS on the list, which makes him something of a non-issue... Even if Tullius witnesses it, a quick look at his own list would not a horse thief. He wouldn't have a reason to then pick through the entire list for discrepancies.

 

Unless it can be shown that Tullius was aware of the fact the Captain sends an unprocessed prisoner to he Block, there is no reason for Tullius to countermand her decision. A commanding officer is, again, not accountable for actions of his subordinates which happen without his knowledge.

 

I am not saying the Thalmor didn't want to free Ulfric, I am saying that they didn't necessarily simply ask Tullius for his release, maybe they were trying to resort to other methods such as the one I described. After all, it would be bad if it were publicly known that they supported Ulfric.

Far easier to kill their own men while 'transporting' Ulfric and have him 'escape'. Using magic to free him, surrounded by Imperials, isn't the best way to keep your star pawn alive.

 

 

Oh come on. It only seemed long because you are creating your character, but you aren't some amorphous blob that only takes on the form of a race after they ask, taking however long it takes for you to decide. They ask your name and you give it.

 

It seems highly unlikely that Tullius was conveniently off in the top of the tower and just zip lined down to where you see him with Ulfric by the executioner's block after your gaze turns back that way. You as the main character can overhear NPC conversations just fine at similar distances and there no indication that those who are dragonborn have super hearing or that Tullius is deaf.