Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[kimmera]

 

 

At any rate, it's important to note that assassinating an Emperor is generally considered a bad idea, and even the Morag Tong suffered harsh reprisals from all manner of Imperial Nobles seeking their destruction following their assassination of the Akaviri Potentate Versidue-Shaie.

 

Not necessarily true. The Tong suffered from gross overconfidence in Shaie's assassination, branding it's own name on the walls with the Potentate's blood. It had risen to be a boisterous, public organization that was easily recognised and thus easily suppressed, and there is no indication that it operated in the shadows as the Brotherhood does.

 

Its also worth noting that the unclear founding of the Brotherhood has raised questions about whether or not it WAS the Tong that assassinated Shaie in the first place.

 

 

Fair enough point.

 

 

Handful of Penitus Oculatus troops: hardly easy even for skilled assassins, seeing as they're meant to be among the deadliest of Imperial agents. At any rate, it's important to note that assassinating an Emperor is generally considered a bad idea, and even the Morag Tong suffered harsh reprisals from all manner of Imperial Nobles seeking their destruction following their assassination of the Akaviri Potentate Versidue-Shaie.

 

Skilled assassins on home turf. Astrid, who is normally at the front door and should have been the first dead on realizing she'd betrayed more than just the Dragonborn had time to perform the sacrament.

 

Nazir survived but Ambjorn goes down despite almost certainly having eaten far more hearts than any dragonborn werewolf.

 

The Pentius agents are not particularly well armed, just having basic Imperial gear.

 

 

Equipment matters more in gameplay than in does lore-wise, especially when considering skilled fighters in close-quarters rather than soldiers on an open battlefield. Even by that logic, the Dark Brotherhood is worse off: they have no armor, only a ridiculously thin (and impractical) robe or leather form-fitting suit. That said, you're also severely underestimating the quality of the average Penitus Oculatus agent: they are among the most elite of the Empire's troops, superior to the Legionnaires that are already recognized as some of the finest soldiers in Tamriel. It's important to remember that assassination is not combat, and one who is a very skilled assassin is hardly necessarily very good in a close melee. While the Oculatus would be better-suited for fighting, the Dark Brotherhood only ever emphasizes assassination: it's an assassins' guild, not a fighters' guild. That the Dark Brotherhood survived at all is a wonder, especially considering that they were outnumbered.

 

 

And Imperial Stormtroopers are (lore-wise) expert marksmen. Bad writing is bad writing.

 

Pentius gear is the same stats as Imperial Studded Leather. The Brotherhood are on home ground and should have gotten at least some warning at the door. They should have been defending as assassins. Blow out the torches and set up ambushes. The PO should have needed a lot more men than that to take them down.

 

If you want a reason other than bad writing, the Brotherhood were just overconfident and lax. They were too used to winning to act sanely, in contrast to to the Thieves' Guild who are too used to losing to act sanely.

[117649AR]

And Imperial Stormtroopers are (lore-wise) expert marksmen. Bad writing is bad writing.

 

Pentius gear is the same stats as Imperial Studded Leather. The Brotherhood are on home ground and should have gotten at least some warning at the door. They should have been defending as assassins. Blow out the torches and set up ambushes. The PO should have needed a lot more men than that to take them down.

 

If you want a reason other than bad writing, the Brotherhood were just overconfident and lax. They were too used to winning to act sanely, in contrast to to the Thieves' Guild who are too used to losing to act sanely.

 

I still fail to see how it's bad writing: again, you're taking gameplay to be far more accurate lore-wise than it is.

 

On armor: Again, the Penitus Oculatus agents are actually armored. Whether they are wearing cuir bouilli or whether they are wearing steel, it still gives them an advantage over assassins clothed in robes and thin form-fitting leather.

 

On fighting skills: Again, assassination and melee combat are two entirely different disciplines. While some skills may carry over, a good assassin does not automatically make a good fighter, nor does a good fighter automatically make a good assassin. Skyrim's gameplay mechanics are poor at representing skill in particular areas, and instead represent an across-the-board proficiency in combat. Whereas the Penitus Oculatus are, like the Legion, well-trained in close combat, the Dark Brotherhood is not: it is not a guild of fighters, nor do any of its activities call for training members as skilled warriors. It only requires that members be skilled assassins, in order to carry out contracts.

 

On the Penitus Oculatus' competence: They are not only the Personal Guard of the Emperor, they are the successors to the Blades and thus the inheritors of the Imperial Intelligence apparatus. It is repeatedly stated that they are an elite organization greatly superior to the Imperial Legion, who are in turn recognized as among the best warriors on the continent.

 

Honestly, it's a miracle that any of the Brotherhood assassins survived. The assassins were outnumbered, inherently disadvantaged both in equipment and the nature of fighting, and quite obviously taken by surprise. Just because a sentry is posted does not mean that there will necessarily be prior warning, especially if the assaulting force is skilled and competent.

[TheVampireDante]

Judging by the condition of the sanctuary it's very possibly the atttack was a complete surprise.

 

One: they wouldn't have expected anyone to know their location - let alone be able to open the door. Far as anyone might have known it was yourself returning from the contract (if they heard the door opening). I doubt they would have expected a large group of highly trained soldiers, armed and armoured, to invade their home and begin to set fire to the place as they move amongst it's halls attacking everyone they see en masse.

 

Festus - It's highly possible they waited until he made an appearance outside, then turned him into a pincushion. Taking out the man who appears to be the groups lead mage is a smart move. It also shows that Festus was unaware of their presense - I doubt he would have stayed out in the open if he had known.

 

Gabriella is a steath type, possibly with some long range training - daggers and poisons most likely, used along with her infiltration skills, as some of her talks with others suggests she get very close to her targets before taking them out. Or if required, taking out her target from a distance (this going by her decision to leave you a bow on one of her contracts). A large number of soldiers present would have her outnumbered and direct combat would not have been a strong area for her.

 

Veezara Likely did some damage as well, but remember he was already injured and we don't know if he was healed magically, or was letting the wound heal in a more traditional manner.

 

Babette - she'd have hidden out of the way, no chance she's getting into the fight full scale. Maybe sneak around and take out one or two agents if she's unseen in the process before retreating backto a safe place.

 

Astrid likely panicked at the realization of what she had brought down on her "family" and probably ended up being largely useless. Might have taken a few agents down before moving off to hide herself to perform the ritual, she is heavily burned though, so that suggests that perhaps she was doused with the oil the agents are using to set fire their fires around the sanctually.

 

Arnbjorn. Well we see how he's doing when he get into the main chamber. He's in wolf form, surrounded by agents and being attacked from all sides in a room filled with flames and smoke. So while he might have the power of his form to attack, he has no armour, and I'm betting that he's in a blind rage and possibly slightly panicked at the fire (if that sort of primal fear affects Werewolves). So while powerful I doubt he's thinking clearly enough to have been an effective opponent.

 

Nazir - he's holding his own. He seems to have found the man leading the attack and focused on him alone, taking the fight to a part of the sanctuary that makes it difficult for his opponent to either escape from him, or call in help (you tried fighting in that area? It's a nuisance). His training does allow for open combat, and he makes use of that to fend off his attacker much more effectively than the rest.

 

As far as the legion agents are concerned you are already dead, so they in turn do not expect your attack when you arrive on scene. By which point they have lost a fair amount of men inside, and the ones posted as guards outside have become relaxed thinking the job was easy and that it'll nearly be done.

Depending on how you play then you either blitz through them all in a moment, or sneak attack each one until there is no one left and have a clear run at the entrance.

 

If the Brotherhood had recruited a few more "direct" warrior types, that entire attack on the sanctuary might have gone very differently. Might not have been "won" in a conventional manner, but perhaps there would have at least been more survivors to help by the time you get there.

[kimmera]

You two are treating this like it is something other than what it is.

 

The stormtrooper analogy holds. Imperial Stormtroopers are supposed to be crack troops, all cloned from an exceptionally renowned bounty hunter, and given top training and equipment.

 

Yet in reality they are really pretty incompetent. (They aren't too bad in the Clone Wars animated series, but they are treated as good guys there). Even to the extent they really are presented as skilled, they still pale in comparison to the Jedi or Sith.

 

The Dark Brotherhood are portrayed as closer to Jedi or Sith.

 

Festus I am willing to concede was likely blindsided outside by snipers. The others, on the other hand... the PO troops are not stealth troops and have barrels of oil to torch the place (which is the source of all the fire). There is no way they snuck those in the front door.

 

Gabriella: As I recall she is found nearer the back, where she would most often be if she was alive. With good use of cover, someone skilled with a bow and stealth could likely take down quite a few PO agents before going down. UESP Wiki lists her level as 5-50, presumably level based on the Dragonborn. Arcturus, the PO leader you have to take down is listed as level 1-23.

 

Veezara: Also level 5-50. also has 1h and archery as primaries. As for the injuries, Babette is not just an alchemist, but the only master level alchemist trainer in Skyrim. That ranks her better than even the Mage's Guild's top alchemist. Why, exactly, would Veezara's wounds be serious? (This is a common issue with fantasy writers, the tendency to forget or ignore the existence of magical healing. The Dragonborn could likely have healed Veezara personally whether he wanted it or not.

 

Babette: Actually listed as a fixed level 10. You figure she could sneak and hide but none of these other highly successful assassins could do so?

 

You say Astrid panicked... where exactly did she run to? Note she was apparently strong enough not only to survive, but to carry out the sacrament despite being badly burnt. If it wasn't for the fact she commissioned her own death, a restoration novice dragonborn could have healed her too.

 

Arnbjorn: Yes he is surrounded and surrounded by flames, however weres in Skyrim retain full sentience. They also get a perk which doubles their hps and stamina. And those flames are surrounding the PO troops too. That makes them not just a weapon against him but also a weapon he could use against the PO troops. "Feeding" is quick and heals, too. Level range 5-50. He went down because he was scripted to. Death by cutscene.

 

Nazir: Level range 5-50 and the exact same skill training as the others. He is a master trainer in light armor though so he might have an edge there. Survives because he is scripted to. He did nothing the others shouldn't have also been able to do.

 

It is funny that the agents think you are already dead, in a world where everyone seems to know everything pretty much instantly. Even if you kill a bandit leader in the middle of the wilderness nowhere remotely near the land of the Jarl who hired you, they know you carried out their task and are not merely taking your word for it. Astrid only betrayed you. How do the 'guards outside' know there aren't more members? How do they know members aren't off on assignment and possibly coming back?

 

The assault goes the way it does because the writers think it would make a good story, not because it is entirely logical. Nazir Astrid and Babette make it out on their own but you had to hide with the Night Mother because she said so. Just as in the Theives' Guild missions, you have to become a Nightingale to save reality from losing all its luck (which still makes no sense whatsoever) ... because Karliah says so. Even Nocturnal doesn't confirm that. Nocturnal just tells you that you did your job like a good lackey. These are stories, fiction, not real situations. They will not always make complete sense or be completely realistic.

[Nephenee13]

Stormtroopers are very good at hitting anything that isn't a main character.

So much the same situation here, really.

[117649AR]

You two are treating this like it is something other than what it is.

 

The stormtrooper analogy holds. Imperial Stormtroopers are supposed to be crack troops, all cloned from an exceptionally renowned bounty hunter, and given top training and equipment.

 

Yet in reality they are really pretty incompetent. (They aren't too bad in the Clone Wars animated series, but they are treated as good guys there). Even to the extent they really are presented as skilled, they still pale in comparison to the Jedi or Sith.

 

The Dark Brotherhood are portrayed as closer to Jedi or Sith.

 

Festus I am willing to concede was likely blindsided outside by snipers. The others, on the other hand... the PO troops are not stealth troops and have barrels of oil to torch the place (which is the source of all the fire). There is no way they snuck those in the front door.

 

Gabriella: As I recall she is found nearer the back, where she would most often be if she was alive. With good use of cover, someone skilled with a bow and stealth could likely take down quite a few PO agents before going down. UESP Wiki lists her level as 5-50, presumably level based on the Dragonborn. Arcturus, the PO leader you have to take down is listed as level 1-23.

 

Veezara: Also level 5-50. also has 1h and archery as primaries. As for the injuries, Babette is not just an alchemist, but the only master level alchemist trainer in Skyrim. That ranks her better than even the Mage's Guild's top alchemist. Why, exactly, would Veezara's wounds be serious? (This is a common issue with fantasy writers, the tendency to forget or ignore the existence of magical healing. The Dragonborn could likely have healed Veezara personally whether he wanted it or not.

 

Babette: Actually listed as a fixed level 10. You figure she could sneak and hide but none of these other highly successful assassins could do so?

 

You say Astrid panicked... where exactly did she run to? Note she was apparently strong enough not only to survive, but to carry out the sacrament despite being badly burnt. If it wasn't for the fact she commissioned her own death, a restoration novice dragonborn could have healed her too.

 

Arnbjorn: Yes he is surrounded and surrounded by flames, however weres in Skyrim retain full sentience. They also get a perk which doubles their hps and stamina. And those flames are surrounding the PO troops too. That makes them not just a weapon against him but also a weapon he could use against the PO troops. "Feeding" is quick and heals, too. Level range 5-50. He went down because he was scripted to. Death by cutscene.

 

Nazir: Level range 5-50 and the exact same skill training as the others. He is a master trainer in light armor though so he might have an edge there. Survives because he is scripted to. He did nothing the others shouldn't have also been able to do.

 

It is funny that the agents think you are already dead, in a world where everyone seems to know everything pretty much instantly. Even if you kill a bandit leader in the middle of the wilderness nowhere remotely near the land of the Jarl who hired you, they know you carried out their task and are not merely taking your word for it. Astrid only betrayed you. How do the 'guards outside' know there aren't more members? How do they know members aren't off on assignment and possibly coming back?

 

The assault goes the way it does because the writers think it would make a good story, not because it is entirely logical. Nazir Astrid and Babette make it out on their own but you had to hide with the Night Mother because she said so. Just as in the Theives' Guild missions, you have to become a Nightingale to save reality from losing all its luck (which still makes no sense whatsoever) ... because Karliah says so. Even Nocturnal doesn't confirm that. Nocturnal just tells you that you did your job like a good lackey. These are stories, fiction, not real situations. They will not always make complete sense or be completely realistic.

 

We're not treating it as bad writing because it's not bad writing. This isn't to say all of Skyrim is well-written, or that every facet of this quest in particular is well-written, but the Penitus Oculatus destroying the Sanctuary and killing the Brotherhood assassins within is not poorly-written, it is logically sound. Even if your analogy held, it would work against you: the Penitus Oculatus are well-established as elite troops, and demonstrate this in being able to destroy a Sanctuary of the Dark Brotherhood. It's not that Stormtroopers were incompetent "in reality", it's that it was an unintended effect of having them incapable of killing plot-important characters: lore-wise, Stormtroopers are elite forces superior to those of the Rebels, and demonstrate this "off-screen". Contrarily, the Penitus Oculatus very much demonstrate their competence "on-screen".

 

And again, you're taking game-play to be far more accurate to lore than it actually is. "Levels" hold very little weight to them except to determine how easy or difficult it will be for the player to kill the character in question, and even so, as I said before: Skyrim's game-play mechanics are poor at reflecting different skills in different areas, and instead present an across-the-board increase in proficiency. Even within the skill categories, it's hardly a good indicator: skill with a dagger in assassination is incredibly different from skill with a dagger in melee combat. Skill with a bow in landing accurate shots at long distances, such as would be useful in assassination, is hardly skill with a bow in a hectic combat scenario.

 

Assassins are not fighters: they are skilled at discreetly and quickly killing unaware targets and discreetly and quickly leaving the scene of the murder. They are not trained soldiers, and are not trained to fight in a close melee with other trained fighters: again, that any of the assassins survived at all is a concession, not a likelihood. That so many Penitus Oculatus agents died is a concession, not a likelihood.

[MidbossVyers]

"Unlikely occurrences" can literally determine the outcome of a battle. Wei lost the Battle of Chibi during the 3 Kingdoms period IRL history mostly due to the wind changing direction. In this game, you know how the Thieves Guild functions on Nocturnal's luck? How do you think that actually manifests? Also, stop saying that assassins can't fight directly. You're right. Some can't. Others can. If you've played "No More Heroes", technically, you're an assassin, but most of your fights are rather direct. Similarly, ninjas IRL history were technically spies and assassins. However, a lot of works have them fighting directly as well as through stealth. Also, there can be a lore explanation about why Brotherhood armor is better than Imperial light armor, such as enchantments and secret forging techniques known only by the Brotherhood.

Edited April 21, 2015 by MidbossVyers

[117649AR]

"Unlikely occurrences" can literally determine the outcome of a battle. Wei lost the Battle of Chibi during the 3 Kingdoms period IRL history mostly due to the wind changing direction. In this game, you know how the Thieves Guild functions on Nocturnal's luck? How do you think that actually manifests? Also, stop saying that assassins can't fight directly. You're right. Some can't. Others can. If you've played "No More Heroes", technically, you're an assassin, but most of your fights are rather direct. Similarly, ninjas IRL history were technically spies and assassins. However, a lot of works have them fighting directly as well as through stealth. Also, there can be a lore explanation about why Brotherhood armor is better than Imperial light armor, such as enchantments and secret forging techniques known only by the Brotherhood.

 

Assassins aren't meant to fight directly, nor do they train for it. Sure, some assassins may also be skilled warriors, but this is not what an assassin is: it is not a given at all that a skilled assassin can hold his/her own in a melee. Other video games are hardly good sources, and historical evidence works against you in this: for the example you cited, not all "ninja" were specifically meant to be assassins. Others were trained to operate on the battlefield: it is an umbrella term, and not all ninja can be grouped into a single definition. What mainly differentiated "ninja" from other warriors, such as Samurai, was their lack of a code of honor, and willingness to do anything to achieve victory. Many were simply mercenaries hired by Lords because they did not care about exercising dishonorable tactics. And if you're going to be considering game-play, the only enchantments that Dark Brotherhood apparel possess are to aid in stealth and assassination: they do nothing to increase the durability of the clothing. Hardened leather is still protection, a form-fitting suit or a set of robes is not.

Edited April 21, 2015 by 117649AR

[MidbossVyers]

It's not a given, but it can be a common occurrence, depending on the circumstances. Also, the Dark Brotherhood are an organization of killers, but unlike the Thieves Guild, stealth is not a given. Just the killing. Heck, there was an orc assassin back in Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood who always wore heavy armor and used a 2-handed weapon. Yes, a lot of the bonuses can be achieved more easily with stealth, but you can be a revered member of the Brotherhood, just for the killing, not necessarily for the stealth (unlike the Thieves Guild). In the terms of the armor, the fact remains that it is better armor quality than the Imperial light armor. If not enchantments, then secret Brotherhood smithing techniques were used. Also, does the armor boost from the Shrouded full set count as an enchantment or special effect? Of course, this only applies to the armor because, as you say, robes provide no protection, but robes are for mages, but they are expected to know Mage Armor spells.

Edited April 21, 2015 by MidbossVyers

[117649AR]

It's not a given, but it can be a common occurrence, depending on the circumstances. Also, the Dark Brotherhood are an organization of killers, but unlike the Thieves Guild, stealth is not a given. Just the killing. Heck, there was an orc assassin back in Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood who always wore heavy armor and used a 2-handed weapon. Yes, a lot of the bonuses can be achieved more easily with stealth, but you can be a revered member of the Brotherhood, just for the killing, not necessarily for the stealth (unlike the Thieves Guild). In the terms of the armor, the fact remains that it is better armor quality than the Imperial light armor. If not enchantments, then secret Brotherhood smithing techniques were used. Also, does the armor boost from the Shrouded full set count as an enchantment or special effect? Of course, this only applies to the armor because, as you say, robes provide no protection, but robes are for mages, but they are expected to know Mage Armor spells.

 

It's a possibility, but not a common occurrence by any stretch of the imagination: learning how to kill an unaware target quickly and discreetly with a blade is far different from learning to fight an armed opponent with a blade, and it takes a great deal of time to become skilled in either discipline. We have nothing to suggest that the members of the Skyrim Dark Brotherhood are skilled combatants save for perhaps two, and even considering that, the Penitus Oculatus are repeatedly described as elite fighters.

 

And again, gameplay is not a good indicator of truth. Just because Penitus Oculatus armor seems to have a lower "armor rating" than Dark Brotherhood apparel does not mean that it is actually less protective, and one can clearly see how the effectiveness of different armor types changes between the games. Armor ratings are not based in realism, they are based on gameplay considerations.