Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[kimmera]

 

You two are treating this like it is something other than what it is.

 

The stormtrooper analogy holds. Imperial Stormtroopers are supposed to be crack troops, all cloned from an exceptionally renowned bounty hunter, and given top training and equipment.

 

Yet in reality they are really pretty incompetent. (They aren't too bad in the Clone Wars animated series, but they are treated as good guys there). Even to the extent they really are presented as skilled, they still pale in comparison to the Jedi or Sith.

 

The Dark Brotherhood are portrayed as closer to Jedi or Sith.

 

Festus I am willing to concede was likely blindsided outside by snipers. The others, on the other hand... the PO troops are not stealth troops and have barrels of oil to torch the place (which is the source of all the fire). There is no way they snuck those in the front door.

 

Gabriella: As I recall she is found nearer the back, where she would most often be if she was alive. With good use of cover, someone skilled with a bow and stealth could likely take down quite a few PO agents before going down. UESP Wiki lists her level as 5-50, presumably level based on the Dragonborn. Arcturus, the PO leader you have to take down is listed as level 1-23.

 

Veezara: Also level 5-50. also has 1h and archery as primaries. As for the injuries, Babette is not just an alchemist, but the only master level alchemist trainer in Skyrim. That ranks her better than even the Mage's Guild's top alchemist. Why, exactly, would Veezara's wounds be serious? (This is a common issue with fantasy writers, the tendency to forget or ignore the existence of magical healing. The Dragonborn could likely have healed Veezara personally whether he wanted it or not.

 

Babette: Actually listed as a fixed level 10. You figure she could sneak and hide but none of these other highly successful assassins could do so?

 

You say Astrid panicked... where exactly did she run to? Note she was apparently strong enough not only to survive, but to carry out the sacrament despite being badly burnt. If it wasn't for the fact she commissioned her own death, a restoration novice dragonborn could have healed her too.

 

Arnbjorn: Yes he is surrounded and surrounded by flames, however weres in Skyrim retain full sentience. They also get a perk which doubles their hps and stamina. And those flames are surrounding the PO troops too. That makes them not just a weapon against him but also a weapon he could use against the PO troops. "Feeding" is quick and heals, too. Level range 5-50. He went down because he was scripted to. Death by cutscene.

 

Nazir: Level range 5-50 and the exact same skill training as the others. He is a master trainer in light armor though so he might have an edge there. Survives because he is scripted to. He did nothing the others shouldn't have also been able to do.

 

It is funny that the agents think you are already dead, in a world where everyone seems to know everything pretty much instantly. Even if you kill a bandit leader in the middle of the wilderness nowhere remotely near the land of the Jarl who hired you, they know you carried out their task and are not merely taking your word for it. Astrid only betrayed you. How do the 'guards outside' know there aren't more members? How do they know members aren't off on assignment and possibly coming back?

 

The assault goes the way it does because the writers think it would make a good story, not because it is entirely logical. Nazir Astrid and Babette make it out on their own but you had to hide with the Night Mother because she said so. Just as in the Theives' Guild missions, you have to become a Nightingale to save reality from losing all its luck (which still makes no sense whatsoever) ... because Karliah says so. Even Nocturnal doesn't confirm that. Nocturnal just tells you that you did your job like a good lackey. These are stories, fiction, not real situations. They will not always make complete sense or be completely realistic.

 

We're not treating it as bad writing because it's not bad writing. This isn't to say all of Skyrim is well-written, or that every facet of this quest in particular is well-written, but the Penitus Oculatus destroying the Sanctuary and killing the Brotherhood assassins within is not poorly-written, it is logically sound. Even if your analogy held, it would work against you: the Penitus Oculatus are well-established as elite troops, and demonstrate this in being able to destroy a Sanctuary of the Dark Brotherhood. It's not that Stormtroopers were incompetent "in reality", it's that it was an unintended effect of having them incapable of killing plot-important characters: lore-wise, Stormtroopers are elite forces superior to those of the Rebels, and demonstrate this "off-screen". Contrarily, the Penitus Oculatus very much demonstrate their competence "on-screen".

 

And again, you're taking game-play to be far more accurate to lore than it actually is. "Levels" hold very little weight to them except to determine how easy or difficult it will be for the player to kill the character in question, and even so, as I said before: Skyrim's game-play mechanics are poor at reflecting different skills in different areas, and instead present an across-the-board increase in proficiency. Even within the skill categories, it's hardly a good indicator: skill with a dagger in assassination is incredibly different from skill with a dagger in melee combat. Skill with a bow in landing accurate shots at long distances, such as would be useful in assassination, is hardly skill with a bow in a hectic combat scenario.

 

Assassins are not fighters: they are skilled at discreetly and quickly killing unaware targets and discreetly and quickly leaving the scene of the murder. They are not trained soldiers, and are not trained to fight in a close melee with other trained fighters: again, that any of the assassins survived at all is a concession, not a likelihood. That so many Penitus Oculatus agents died is a concession, not a likelihood.

 

 

Like the brotherhood, the rebels are hopelessly outnumbered. And unlike the brotherhood, the rebels are mostly just volunteers, not 'main character equivalents.' The stormtroopers don't show any great skill 'off screen.' The Empire (in Star Wars) won politically and with Jedi assistance and can mass produce stormtroopers through cloning. The Empire in Nirn has no such capability and were reduced to a shadow of their might by the evil droid Thalmor army.

 

Not all of the assassinations the brotherhood carry out are against unaware non-combatants. If you listen to their banter, you will realize they very much like it when the prey is awake and aware.

 

I know this may seem like a strange concept to you, but game-play is lore. The alternative is that lore has nothing to do with the actual game, and we are only playing a game loosely based on Elder Scrolls. Your position is like saying history books are more accurate than what actually happened. It is a writer's delusion, or at least a writer's cop out.

[BoredErica]

IMO:

 

Thalmor are Nazis that must be stopped ASAP and totally crushed. The Empire loyalists argue that even together with the Nords they are unable to quash the Thalmor. That may be true, but now they have a level 150 Dragonborn that slayed Alduin ready to do the killing.

 

Racism - While the Stormcloaks are more racist, I would argue that going with Imperials is no better. The more Thalmor influence there is, the easier it is for the Thalmor to infiltrate Skyrim and take out both the Empire and the Nords. The Empire's inaction is in itself a decision and a policy and it is costing everybody potentially the safety of the entire world. If the Thalmor win, they're going to be a hell of a lot more racist than the Stormcloaks. The Dragonborn will be instrumental in defeating the Thalmor, and this will give me a lot of bargaining power with Ulfric to press for a less racist Skyrim. The Imperials already have their own plot of land. They have no right to take over Skyrim from the Nords, claim to do it for their protection, and then sit by and let the Thalmor run all over them.

[Lachdonin]

IMO:

 

Thalmor are Nazis that must be stopped ASAP and totally crushed. The Empire loyalists argue that even together with the Nords they are unable to quash the Thalmor. That may be true, but now they have a level 150 Dragonborn that slayed Alduin ready to do the killing.

 

Racism - While the Stormcloaks are more racist, I would argue that going with Imperials is no better. The more Thalmor influence there is, the easier it is for the Thalmor to infiltrate Skyrim and take out both the Empire and the Nords. The Empire's inaction is in itself a decision and a policy and it is costing everybody potentially the safety of the entire world. If the Thalmor win, they're going to be a hell of a lot more racist than the Stormcloaks. The Dragonborn will be instrumental in defeating the Thalmor, and this will give me a lot of bargaining power with Ulfric to press for a less racist Skyrim. The Imperials already have their own plot of land. They have no right to take over Skyrim from the Nords, claim to do it for their protection, and then sit by and let the Thalmor run all over them.

*Sigh* ... Can we at least read some arguements first? I love New people getting involved in discussions, but at least make an effort to do some reading?

 

First...The Dragonborn is a non-issue. He/she is unlikely to have ANY future role. No TES Hero has persisted to be relevant beyond their game. Not the Eternal Champion, not the Agent, not Dunmer-Jesus, not the Reincarnation of Alessia's murder-bot. The Dragonborn, at best, will be a mythic figure used to give some tenuous divine precedence to Akatosh. He/she will do nothing against the Thalmor.

 

Second, evidence indicates that Ulfric sufferers from just as much Thalmor influence as the Empire. Possibly more so, as he may not even be aware that they're jerking his chain. The Empire is at least aware, and reluctantly tolerant of their manipulation, the same cannot be said for the Stormcloaks.

 

Third, the Imperials never took over Skyrim. Skyrim JOINED the Third Empire WILLINGLY. Their attempted succession is like the American Civil War, not a foreign occupation.

 

Fourth... Vehking hell, I'm going back to Morrowind. When Walk-Brass decides to stomp you mannish swit into next never, I''ll be living in a palace on the moon.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Lachdonin

[Glumo]

My view on this is to side with the Stormcloaks for the following reasons:

 

In the Civil war, it does NOT matter which side is more vulnerable to the Aldmeri Dominion, because if the Dragonborn, an insanely powerful killing machine wearing armor from the skin and bones of a dragon and wielding swords and axes infused with the heart of Daedra coated in ebony, who has no problem single-handedly manslaughtering entire fortresses of Imperials/Stormcloaks, Thalmor, draugrs, bandits, forsworn, necromancers, trolls, giants etc., being able to save the world from destruction singlehandedly by slaying dozens, even hundreds of dragons, even Alduin, who is basically immortal and has the power to kill EVERYBODY (apart from the unkillable NPCs) in Skyrim, to summon and ride a dragon, being able to manipulate magic and use it to wreak havoc, decides to join either side of the civil war, where both are fighting the Aldmeri Dominion, then the Thalmor are basically f*#@ed. The empire are weak and I don't care if Ulfric is a power-hungry racist or not, the Stormcloaks have full right to give Skyrim back to their people and drive out anyone who does otherwise. The Thalmor have the Empire in their pocket, and they are the most racist scum ever, denigrating everyone who comes by them. If you win the war with the Stormcloaks, you have the right to slay any Thalmor member who comes by, and I enjoy killing those stuck-up elves with all my heart.

[kimmera]

 

IMO:

 

Thalmor are Nazis that must be stopped ASAP and totally crushed. The Empire loyalists argue that even together with the Nords they are unable to quash the Thalmor. That may be true, but now they have a level 150 Dragonborn that slayed Alduin ready to do the killing.

 

Racism - While the Stormcloaks are more racist, I would argue that going with Imperials is no better. The more Thalmor influence there is, the easier it is for the Thalmor to infiltrate Skyrim and take out both the Empire and the Nords. The Empire's inaction is in itself a decision and a policy and it is costing everybody potentially the safety of the entire world. If the Thalmor win, they're going to be a hell of a lot more racist than the Stormcloaks. The Dragonborn will be instrumental in defeating the Thalmor, and this will give me a lot of bargaining power with Ulfric to press for a less racist Skyrim. The Imperials already have their own plot of land. They have no right to take over Skyrim from the Nords, claim to do it for their protection, and then sit by and let the Thalmor run all over them.

*Sigh* ... Can we at least read some arguements first? I love New people getting involved in discussions, but at least make an effort to do some reading?

 

First...The Dragonborn is a non-issue. He/she is unlikely to have ANY future role. No TES Hero has persisted to be relevant beyond their game. Not the Eternal Champion, not the Agent, not Dunmer-Jesus, not the Reincarnation of Alessia's murder-bot. The Dragonborn, at best, will be a mythic figure used to give some tenuous divine precedence to Akatosh. He/she will do nothing against the Thalmor.

 

Second, evidence indicates that Ulfric sufferers from just as much Thalmor influence as the Empire. Possibly more so, as he may not even be aware that they're jerking his chain. The Empire is at least aware, and reluctantly tolerant of their manipulation, the same cannot be said for the Stormcloaks.

 

Third, the Imperials never took over Skyrim. Skyrim JOINED the Third Empire WILLINGLY. Their attempted succession is like the American Civil War, not a foreign occupation.

 

Fourth... Vehking hell, I'm going back to Morrowind. When Walk-Brass decides to stomp you mannish swit into next never, I''ll be living in a palace on the moon.

 

 

A couple legitimate points there, but the fact that the Nerevarine, Hero of Kvatch, etc vanish from history arbitrarily as if they joined the Dwemer is just more convenient writing.

 

That said, barring mods, none of the above is really at the ability to single-handedly defeat full realistic large scale armies. Infiltrate past them and take down leadership and rage a devastating guerrilla campaign, perhaps, and perhaps that would be enough, but the writers seem to think of them more of 'the right person at the right time' than as anyone actually effective.

 

How the writers think power really works is always handled by tossing game mechanics aside in favor of a cut scene, essential status, and/or otherwise scripted outcome.

[MidbossVyers]

Well, the Hero of Kvatch became Sheogorath, and pre-Hero of Kvatch Sheogorath was responsible for some political upheavals, such as with King Lyandir. Also, funny that you bring up leadership, as I don't think anyone has answered this before, but the Stormcloaks are led by a High King, the Empire is led by the Emperor, but who leads the Thalmor? A king, a president, a chairman?

[kimmera]

Well, the Hero of Kvatch became Sheogorath, and pre-Hero of Kvatch Sheogorath was responsible for some political upheavals, such as with King Lyandir. Also, funny that you bring up leadership, as I don't think anyone has answered this before, but the Stormcloaks are led by a High King, the Empire is led by the Emperor, but who leads the Thalmor? A king, a president, a chairman?

 

But the Hero of KVatch only becomes Sheogorath in playthroughs that included Shivering Isles, which is not necessarily all realities or the 'official' reality. And if you become Sheogorath before completing the Oblivion main quest, you aren't really that much more powerful. You certainly don't gain the ability to bombard an area with farm animals at will or transport anyone who happens to walk down a specific corridor into your own, completely under your control pocket dimension within a dead king's mind. You don't even become essential.

 

In other news, Daedric lord Sheogorath was slain today by a wandering troll while his mind was out refilling it's glass..... Ummm...

 

 

You don't even get the wabajack unless you do a quest for yourself to earn it.

 

By the time of Skyrim, whoever is Sheogorath is fully Sheogorath and is back to being more than a little mad. Sheo may already be the driving force behind the Thalmor for all we know....

[BoredErica]

 

*Sigh* ... Can we at least read some arguements first? I love New people getting involved in discussions, but at least make an effort to do some reading?

Do you know how many pages there are in this thread? I really don't care enough to read through over the first few posts. If you're going to pull out that question, you better utterly demolish my points, otherwise it wouldn't be justified. I'm not a fan of the 'veteran-lore-guy-that's-read-all-the-arguments' act.

 

First...The Dragonborn is a non-issue. He/she is unlikely to have ANY future role. No TES Hero has persisted to be relevant beyond their game. Not the Eternal Champion, not the Agent, not Dunmer-Jesus, not the Reincarnation of Alessia's murder-bot. The Dragonborn, at best, will be a mythic figure used to give some tenuous divine precedence to Akatosh. He/she will do nothing against the Thalmor.

Uh... no. I'm the Dragonborn, and I say I will destroy the Thalmor.

 

If you insist at looking at the games as if they're just games and what the creators write is law, then this thread is totally pointless. What the devs do or don't do for future TES games is irrelevant. First, as the other guy said, it is so because of convenient writing. This is a game and the story can't totally reflect a realistic scenario because the creators are imperfect writers writing an imaginary story with a budget. The fact that no TES hero has persisted to be relevant beyond their game is due to Bethesda. If this were a real situation, that's not necessarily the case. I'm not here to debate what side Bethesda will consider cannon in TES 6 and I don't care.

 

Second, evidence indicates that Ulfric sufferers from just as much Thalmor influence as the Empire. Possibly more so, as he may not even be aware that they're jerking his chain. The Empire is at least aware, and reluctantly tolerant of their manipulation, the same cannot be said for the Stormcloaks.

How does that mean anything? They want Thalmor dead. The plan only backfires if they lack sufficient firepower which is no longer the case. The Dragonborn destroyed the Devourer of Worlds, who was going to destroy the entire world, SOLO, then went to Sovengarde to whoop his butt again. If he can do that, he can also basically destroy the entire Skyrim solo. And HE CAN. And it makes sense. And this is all trivially done when the Dragonborn is stronger, even without custom enchanting gear. I bet Talos is jelly right now. And some say he's a god.

 

Third, the Imperials never took over Skyrim. Skyrim JOINED the Third Empire WILLINGLY. Their attempted succession is like the American Civil War, not a foreign occupation.

Or more like the Americans and the English. And I think in both cases the civil war was justified. The Imperials won't allow for an election, and so both sides will debate with blood. Fact is the current government does not support the Skyrim people and is not willing to protect them. Thomas Jefferson said that each generation needs its own revolution - well it's high time for a split.

 

Fourth... Vehking hell, I'm going back to Morrowind. When Walk-Brass decides to stomp you mannish swit into next never, I''ll be living in a palace on the moon.

...

Edited April 23, 2015 by dark_wizzie

[kimmera]

 

How does that mean anything? They want Thalmor dead. The plan only backfires if they lack sufficient firepower which is no longer the case. The Dragonborn destroyed the Devourer of Worlds, who was going to destroy the entire world, SOLO, then went to Sovengarde to whoop his butt again. If he can do that, he can also basically destroy the entire Skyrim solo. And HE CAN. And it makes sense. And this is all trivially done when the Dragonborn is stronger, even without custom enchanting gear. I bet Talos is jelly right now. And some say he's a god.

 

 

 

For all we know the Thalmor could have dealt with Alduin if they had the knowledge the Blades had and weren't in the middle of a cold war with the Empire that could get hot again any moment. They were investigating the situation, but didn't know enough local lore to take it seriously.

 

The Dragonborn just needs Skyrim at peace as part of the main plot. The Hero of Kvatch needed (at least officially by the plot) assistance from all the cities of Cyrodiil. And at the end the last Septim Emperor shares the heavy lifting. It isn't purely a factor of raw power in these plots. There is prophesy and providence on the hero's side. They are born the right person for that job, but not necessarily for all other jobs.

 

Or more like the Americans and the English. And I think in both cases the civil war was justified. The Imperials won't allow for an election, and so both sides will debate with blood. Fact is the current government does not support the Skyrim people and is not willing to protect them. Thomas Jefferson said that each generation needs its own revolution - well it's high time for a split.

 

 

 

Much more like the Roman Empire actually. It isn't so much a revolution as the Empire falling under its own weight and from outside pressures. The government only doesn't support the Skyrim people because it was a condition of the current peace agreement. The Empire doesn't go out of their way to enforce that clause though, and sparse roving random patrols in the wilderness on the part of the Thalmor isn't particularly an effective strategy either.

 

If the Stormcloaks hadn't made a big deal of it at Markarth, the continued worship could likely have been swept under the rug. The Empire does allow Skyrim to retain a High King rather than the usual Cyrodiil dukes, so it isn't like they completely disrespect Skyrim. They might tax to pay for a foreign war (the main cause of the American Revolution and actually a significant cause of the Russian Revolution too, albeit a different foreign war), but the Thalmor are actually a threat to Skyrim too, even if they haven't attacked there directly yet. Under a stronger Emperor, that fact would be sung by every bard in the land and the people rallied, but instead we only hear songs of the civil war, or the Dragonborn, or Ragnar the Red..... How many sent off to defend the Empire and no one even talks about that war?

[MidbossVyers]

In terms of the Thalmor dealing with Alduin, I accept that there are Thalmor master wizards that could probably solo dragons. However, Alduin, himself, by his very nature as World Eater, cannot be killed by mortal hands. Well, the issue with Skyrim's High King is that the selection process may be directly or indirectly controlled by the Cyrodiilic Empire. I don't think taxes were ever made in an issue in either case of the Civil War. Yes, bard songs should be better.