Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[kimmera]

In terms of the Thalmor dealing with Alduin, I accept that there are Thalmor master wizards that could probably solo dragons. However, Alduin, himself, by his very nature as World Eater, cannot be killed by mortal hands. Well, the issue with Skyrim's High King is that the selection process may be directly or indirectly controlled by the Cyrodiilic Empire. I don't think taxes were ever made in an issue in either case of the Civil War. Yes, bard songs should be better.

 

It is mostly the anti-dragon shout that is learned from Paarthurnax. The question is whether the Thalmor could develop something equivalent within the appropriate time frame.

 

There is no evidence at all that the Emperor directly affects the moot that chooses succession. Ulfric was allowed as a contender. As for indirect influence, there will always be global politics, and they are still part of the Empire. Skyrim is similar to Scotland or Bavaria, which are part of the United Kingdom and Germany respectively but internally are in many ways independent with their own separate level of government.

[notmyhome]

I kinda doubt Thalmor have access to that sort of magic. The Thu'um is supposed to be a form of Tonal Magic, after all.

 

That Void Nights stunt was pretty impressive, but if I had to guess was more an illusion than really making Lorkhan's corpse disappear.

[kimmera]

I kinda doubt Thalmor have access to that sort of magic. The Thu'um is supposed to be a form of Tonal Magic, after all.

 

That Void Nights stunt was pretty impressive, but if I had to guess was more an illusion than really making Lorkhan's corpse disappear.

 

Why wouldn't they be studying it? There are Dwemer ruins everywhere, and even Arniel in Skyrim gets into the act, learning enough to destroy himself in impatience. The Thalmor tend to be a lot more methodical, and would likely be rather a lot more effective in their research.

 

Furthermore, Irileth the housecarl of Dragonsreach isn't particularly impressed by shouts based on her travels of the rest of the world. The people of Skyrim have strange attitudes towards magic. Shouts are good and cool because they are traditional, but any other magic is icky, except for the Foresworn where it is rare for someone not to know any.

[BoredErica]

 

How does that mean anything? They want Thalmor dead. The plan only backfires if they lack sufficient firepower which is no longer the case. The Dragonborn destroyed the Devourer of Worlds, who was going to destroy the entire world, SOLO, then went to Sovengarde to whoop his butt again. If he can do that, he can also basically destroy the entire Skyrim solo. And HE CAN. And it makes sense. And this is all trivially done when the Dragonborn is stronger, even without custom enchanting gear. I bet Talos is jelly right now. And some say he's a god.

 

For all we know the Thalmor could have dealt with Alduin if they had the knowledge the Blades had and weren't in the middle of a cold war with the Empire that could get hot again any moment. They were investigating the situation, but didn't know enough local lore to take it seriously.

 

The Dragonborn just needs Skyrim at peace as part of the main plot. The Hero of Kvatch needed (at least officially by the plot) assistance from all the cities of Cyrodiil. And at the end the last Septim Emperor shares the heavy lifting. It isn't purely a factor of raw power in these plots. There is prophesy and providence on the hero's side. They are born the right person for that job, but not necessarily for all other jobs.

 

Or more like the Americans and the English. And I think in both cases the civil war was justified. The Imperials won't allow for an election, and so both sides will debate with blood. Fact is the current government does not support the Skyrim people and is not willing to protect them. Thomas Jefferson said that each generation needs its own revolution - well it's high time for a split.

 

Much more like the Roman Empire actually. It isn't so much a revolution as the Empire falling under its own weight and from outside pressures. The government only doesn't support the Skyrim people because it was a condition of the current peace agreement. The Empire doesn't go out of their way to enforce that clause though, and sparse roving random patrols in the wilderness on the part of the Thalmor isn't particularly an effective strategy either.

 

If the Stormcloaks hadn't made a big deal of it at Markarth, the continued worship could likely have been swept under the rug. The Empire does allow Skyrim to retain a High King rather than the usual Cyrodiil dukes, so it isn't like they completely disrespect Skyrim. They might tax to pay for a foreign war (the main cause of the American Revolution and actually a significant cause of the Russian Revolution too, albeit a different foreign war), but the Thalmor are actually a threat to Skyrim too, even if they haven't attacked there directly yet. Under a stronger Emperor, that fact would be sung by every bard in the land and the people rallied, but instead we only hear songs of the civil war, or the Dragonborn, or Ragnar the Red..... How many sent off to defend the Empire and no one even talks about that war?

 

Alduin is invincible until he is brought down by Dragonrend, nobody could touch Alduin. Again, I'm not looking at it from the point of it just being a game Bethesda will narrate. Logically if somebody is powerful enough to stop the monster that can eat the entire world, that person is extremely powerful. A dragon is strong enough to kill an entire city. That's just A dragon, not a special one.

 

The Thalmor won't be able to develop Dragonrend (shouts require a long time of training by a non-Dragonborn), employ it in time against Alduin in time, go to Sovengarde, and kill him again there.

 

Again, I'm arguing from the perspective of the whole situation being real. There's really no contest in terms of the Dragonborn's strength when argued from that perspective. You might say, well, that's not how you want to look at it, and good for you, but I'm not you.

Edited April 24, 2015 by dark_wizzie

[fgambler]

Alduin is still invincible with Dragonrend or not, The thing is, only a Dragonborn could take him down.

Edited April 24, 2015 by fgambler

[kimmera]

 

 

How does that mean anything? They want Thalmor dead. The plan only backfires if they lack sufficient firepower which is no longer the case. The Dragonborn destroyed the Devourer of Worlds, who was going to destroy the entire world, SOLO, then went to Sovengarde to whoop his butt again. If he can do that, he can also basically destroy the entire Skyrim solo. And HE CAN. And it makes sense. And this is all trivially done when the Dragonborn is stronger, even without custom enchanting gear. I bet Talos is jelly right now. And some say he's a god.

 

For all we know the Thalmor could have dealt with Alduin if they had the knowledge the Blades had and weren't in the middle of a cold war with the Empire that could get hot again any moment. They were investigating the situation, but didn't know enough local lore to take it seriously.

 

The Dragonborn just needs Skyrim at peace as part of the main plot. The Hero of Kvatch needed (at least officially by the plot) assistance from all the cities of Cyrodiil. And at the end the last Septim Emperor shares the heavy lifting. It isn't purely a factor of raw power in these plots. There is prophesy and providence on the hero's side. They are born the right person for that job, but not necessarily for all other jobs.

 

Or more like the Americans and the English. And I think in both cases the civil war was justified. The Imperials won't allow for an election, and so both sides will debate with blood. Fact is the current government does not support the Skyrim people and is not willing to protect them. Thomas Jefferson said that each generation needs its own revolution - well it's high time for a split.

 

Much more like the Roman Empire actually. It isn't so much a revolution as the Empire falling under its own weight and from outside pressures. The government only doesn't support the Skyrim people because it was a condition of the current peace agreement. The Empire doesn't go out of their way to enforce that clause though, and sparse roving random patrols in the wilderness on the part of the Thalmor isn't particularly an effective strategy either.

 

If the Stormcloaks hadn't made a big deal of it at Markarth, the continued worship could likely have been swept under the rug. The Empire does allow Skyrim to retain a High King rather than the usual Cyrodiil dukes, so it isn't like they completely disrespect Skyrim. They might tax to pay for a foreign war (the main cause of the American Revolution and actually a significant cause of the Russian Revolution too, albeit a different foreign war), but the Thalmor are actually a threat to Skyrim too, even if they haven't attacked there directly yet. Under a stronger Emperor, that fact would be sung by every bard in the land and the people rallied, but instead we only hear songs of the civil war, or the Dragonborn, or Ragnar the Red..... How many sent off to defend the Empire and no one even talks about that war?

 

Alduin is invincible until he is brought down by Dragonrend, nobody could touch Alduin. Again, I'm not looking at it from the point of it just being a game Bethesda will narrate. Logically if somebody is powerful enough to stop the monster that can eat the entire world, that person is extremely powerful. A dragon is strong enough to kill an entire city. That's just A dragon, not a special one.

 

The Thalmor won't be able to develop Dragonrend (shouts require a long time of training by a non-Dragonborn), employ it in time against Alduin in time, go to Sovengarde, and kill him again there.

 

Again, I'm arguing from the perspective of the whole situation being real. There's really no contest in terms of the Dragonborn's strength when argued from that perspective. You might say, well, that's not how you want to look at it, and good for you, but I'm not you.

 

 

Actually, the first dragon you meet can be taken down by the city troops without the Dragonborn firing a shot in that encounter. The later dragons get tougher, but the reality is most get taken down by the Dragonborn because no one else can afford to make any serious effort against them in the middle of a civil war, particularly in the aftermath of losses in the war against the Thalmor.

 

Realism is a tricky thing. You are confusing legend and hype with 'reality.' Most dragons in game are defeated without using any shouts, other than Alduin on whom you need Dragonrend. The Thalmor may well have equivalent magic for all we know. We know very little about them. Any such magic wouldn't have had any effect on the war against the Empire. As for motives for researching such a thing, they already knew of one Emperor transforming into a dragon, so they might have wanted to be prepared in case the Empire could repeat that trick.

 

 

Alduin is still invincible with Dragonrend or not, The thing is, only a Dragonborn could take him down.

 

How exactly do we know that? Who else tried?

[TheVampireDante]

 

How exactly do we know that? Who else tried?

 

The guards at Helgen, and likely other guards at any site he visited while resurrecting other dragons.

 

The three heroes you see in the Elder scroll vision - who, as you note could shout, created a new shout, and still could not kill him, only shift him out of their time period.

 

Then you have the actual prophecy itself stating only a Dragonborn can defeat him (The last Dragonborn) - this, in a reality where such things tend to have very real implications, and a very real impact on the world.

[notmyhome]

We'd need Lachdonin here to explain our current state of knowledge about who can or cannot kill a dragon in general, but I'll try to sum up what I can remember from some /r/teslore thread.

 

1. Anybody can bring down ordinary dragons. What makes you, as a Dragonborn, special, is the ability to devour its Soul. That is the only way to ensure the dragon cannot be brought back from the dead like we see Alduin doing with the causualties of the first Dragon War.

 

2. Alduin is more than the physical projection we see in-game. TES lore is a tricky thing, and it sounds like his size, strenght and power vary greatly.

For example, we've heard from developers that Alduin is indeed capable of "eating" the world, and has done so in every previous dream cycle.

That takes a bigger mouth than we see in-game, don't you think so?

Also, at some point Alduin somehow "ate" the Nord's years of life, reducing them all to children. It took Ysmir himself to put stuff back in order, and he killed himself in the process. [i personally think that this sounds more like Auri-el's doing, but don't have any evidence to back this up]

[kimmera]

 

 

How exactly do we know that? Who else tried?

 

The guards at Helgen, and likely other guards at any site he visited while resurrecting other dragons.

 

The three heroes you see in the Elder scroll vision - who, as you note could shout, created a new shout, and still could not kill him, only shift him out of their time period.

 

Then you have the actual prophecy itself stating only a Dragonborn can defeat him (The last Dragonborn) - this, in a reality where such things tend to have very real implications, and a very real impact on the world.

 

 

1) The guards at Helgen were blindsided, General Tullius' safety was a concern and presumably so was trying to recaputre/prevent the escape of Ulfric. The Dragonborn wasn't really significantly tougher upon reaching Whiterun, and had no shouts until after that first dragon was taken down.

 

In fact, Helgen is a prime example of plot expedience trumping consistency. The writers of Star Trek were once quoted as saying 'ships move at the speed of plot.' It is similar with Dragons. The dragon at Helgen is artificially more effective, because the writers wanted a scary opening, but Alduin is the only other dragon you meet that seems capable of any real property damage.

 

2) Prophecies are strange things. They mean events will happen a certain way. This means the Dragonborn does not necessarily win because he is stronger than everyone else, merely that he is strong enough in the right places at the right times. Others may have been able to handle the task, perhaps even easier. However they didn't happen to be in a position to do so before the Dragonborn would. Furthermore, it doesn't follow that the Dragonborn is strong enough for anything else. They aren't prophesied to defeat the Thalmor Empire, for example, merely to defeat Alduin. The shouts are great anti-dragon weapons since there is a specific very effective anti-dragon shout. They are also just fine for blindsiding an otherwise friendly king long enough to kill him and attempt to claim the throne in the aftermath. Taking on armies though? That is another matter.

[kimmera]

We'd need Lachdonin here to explain our current state of knowledge about who can or cannot kill a dragon in general, but I'll try to sum up what I can remember from some /r/teslore thread.

 

1. Anybody can bring down ordinary dragons. What makes you, as a Dragonborn, special, is the ability to devour its Soul. That is the only way to ensure the dragon cannot be brought back from the dead like we see Alduin doing with the causualties of the first Dragon War.

 

2. Alduin is more than the physical projection we see in-game. TES lore is a tricky thing, and it sounds like his size, strenght and power vary greatly.

For example, we've heard from developers that Alduin is indeed capable of "eating" the world, and has done so in every previous dream cycle.

That takes a bigger mouth than we see in-game, don't you think so?

Also, at some point Alduin somehow "ate" the Nord's years of life, reducing them all to children. It took Ysmir himself to put stuff back in order, and he killed himself in the process. [i personally think that this sounds more like Auri-el's doing, but don't have any evidence to back this up]

 

Eating the world is not necessarily literal. The dragon shouts and abilities are tonal magic, so just as the Dragonborn has Dragonrend, which weakens dragons drastically, Alduin likely has something similar but stronger capable of undoing the entire world, if used properly... not necessarily just by Alduin. He was bringing those other dragons back for some sort of reason.... A full dragon chorus of Nirnrend would probably be very bad for the world.....

 

As for bringing the dragons back, take down Alduin permanently and that stops. Frankly I think the main reason it has to be a Dragonborn to save the world is the Greybeards are too stupid to trust anyone else, and everyone else is too stupid to trust Paarthunax. Even Paathunax argues he shouldn't be trusted.