Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[MidbossVyers]

Actually, weapons are all level scaled, while Stormcloak armor is pretty much the same grade as Imperial light armor. Even if you play a heavy armor Stormcloak (like me), Nordic Carved Armor has plenty of bear motifs.

[Kyuukei]

What I don't entirely understand is why I can't get Ulfric and Tullius in a room together and say:

 

"Ulfric, stop being a racist douchebag. Or at least get your damn army in line. Mer have their place in Skyrim as much as the Nords do. Tullius, grow some balls. And stop being elitist. Now let's go f*** up the Dominion. Together."

 

I mean, I'm a Lycanthrope Vampire Lord, with armour crafted from Alduin's MOTHER, a sword made from the heart of an otherworldly being that sucks the life out of those I hit with it, a master mage capable of charring, freezing, or shocking you into Oblivion and back - and then into Sovngarde -, haave two dragons at my beck and call - and Alduin's former lieutenant as an ally -, the soul of a dragon, and to top it off, able to breathe fire/ice or become ethereal or slow down time itself by yelling at someone.

 

Beating the Thalmor is an everyday job for me. I kill dragons. F***ing dragons.

 

... I love you.

 

Anyway, I generally agree with the opening post. What Ulfric says to Galmar in that first conversation you see is rather telling. "I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing." He's basically stuck on the path his blind rage put him on, and he knows he has to see it through no matter what. Rikke also alludes to this.

 

Basically, I think Ulfric's heart is probably in the right place, but his overall goals are RIDICULOUSLY shortsighted. Seriously, it is mentioned in at least one place in Skyrim that it is not likely they'll even be able to feed the populace without the Empire - Skyrim is harsh and a lot of the food and resources needed to sustain its current size must be imported. And, overall, Rikke makes no secret of the fact that the Empire is basically biding its time until it can resume open war with the Thalmor - something that the Stormcloaks seem completely blind to. Overall, I think that in the long term, a Stormcloak victory would f*** things up royally. Especially since they seem wholly intent on PROACTIVELY GOING TO WAR WITH THE DOMINION, without any implication of trying to get the support of anyone else. Seriously, wtf, Ulfric?

 

Admittedly, I used to be a Stormcloak advocate, but I've had a lot of time to think about it since then. Again, I am fairly sympathetic to Ulfric as a person, but not to his goals nor the Stormcloaks as a whole. It is unfortunate, but I kill Stormcloaks on sight just as I kill Thalmor, in the interest of ending the war as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Kyuukei

[MidbossVyers]

Food and resources can and will be imported with or without Imperial control. Don't confuse support with control. Imperial and non-Nord businesses have no qualms with trading with Stormcloaks, and Stormcloaks have no qualms about imported goods, such as aged Breton cheese.

[Kyuukei]

Point. Rest of the argument still stands though.

 

... though, I thought the cheese was of Khajiit persuasion.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Kyuukei

[Elimc]

@Kyuukel

 

The only source that mentions anything about food shortages is Sybile Stentor, a vampire who is Elisif's court wizard. All she says is that food resources from the empire are important to our people. She doesn't say they will die without them, just that they are important. For example, people in Solitude may no longer get spiced wine from Cyrodil, but they can still survive. After all, Whiterun, Falkreath, Windhelm, and the Rift all have a lot of farms. And why do you think that Ulfric would not ally with anyone. He has already sent messengers to High Rock to ask for support, which puts their loyalty to the Empire in doubt as well. Also, it would be perfectly natural for them to ally with Hammerfell, which is probably the strongest nation(other than the AD). These three countries could probably defeat the AD in a war. But the Empire has been biding their time for 25 years with no sign of doing anything. Rikke and Tullius might want to kill Thalmor, but TMII and the Elder Council seem perfectly happy to do absolutely nothing.

 

On another note, their are more elves in the courts of Stormcloack Jarls than in those of Imperial Jarls if you don't count Thalmor.

[kimmera]

Food and resources can and will be imported with or without Imperial control. Don't confuse support with control. Imperial and non-Nord businesses have no qualms with trading with Stormcloaks, and Stormcloaks have no qualms about imported goods, such as aged Breton cheese.

 

That assumes the status quo remains. If Skyrim goes to war with the Thalmor unsupported or at any rate with insufficient troops (remembering they are only able to achieve a stalemate with the Empire now) then trade with the Empire would get a lot more difficult.

 

If they win but do not go to war with the Thalmor, then the Empire no longer has Nord troops to draw upon, and may collapse to the Thalmor, which would likely be followed by the Thalmor advancing on Skyrim. That wouldn't merely reduce trade, it would cut it off entirely.

 

 

@Kyuukel

 

The only source that mentions anything about food shortages is Sybile Stentor, a vampire who is Elisif's court wizard. All she says is that food resources from the empire are important to our people. She doesn't say they will die without them, just that they are important. For example, people in Solitude may no longer get spiced wine from Cyrodil, but they can still survive. After all, Whiterun, Falkreath, Windhelm, and the Rift all have a lot of farms. And why do you think that Ulfric would not ally with anyone. He has already sent messengers to High Rock to ask for support, which puts their loyalty to the Empire in doubt as well. Also, it would be perfectly natural for them to ally with Hammerfell, which is probably the strongest nation(other than the AD). These three countries could probably defeat the AD in a war. But the Empire has been biding their time for 25 years with no sign of doing anything. Rikke and Tullius might want to kill Thalmor, but TMII and the Elder Council seem perfectly happy to do absolutely nothing.

 

On another note, their are more elves in the courts of Stormcloack Jarls than in those of Imperial Jarls if you don't count Thalmor.

 

Important is important. Missing a few luxuries is more annoying than important. There don't seem to be any large grain fields or any hints of larger scale agriculture in Skyrim.

 

25 years is not that long after a devastating war in which you lost and had to retake your capitol. It just seems different in Skyrim because they weren't under attack. Ulfric's temper tantrums are likely just making matters worse. He forced the Empire's hand on enforcement of the no Talos worship clause by making a big thing of it rather than doing what every society has done in similar circumstances, taking worship and faith underground until saner heads prevail.

 

His theory really seems to be 'we are tough Nords so we will win' and thinking that a coup would magically work when he was outvoted at the moot and can't even control Skyrim without the Dragonborn's assistance.

[MidbossVyers]

Assuming the Stormcloak can take Solitude, they have all but won the war. They have no interest in "defeating" the Empire, just driving their political (commerce is fine) influence out of Skyrim. Given that the East Empire Company can and will still operate in Windhelm fresh out of a war with the Empire, I don't think the Stormcloaks warring with the Thalmor will make the Empire any more or less comfortable trading with Skyrim. The Stormcloaks are only fighting the Empire because they, the Stormcloaks, assume that the Empire has no interest in warring with the Dominion (whether that assumption is correct is another story). Should the Empire sound the horn for a Tamrielic coalition against the Thalmor within and outside the Empire (whenever that happens), the Stormcloaks may be suspicious, but I doubt they will reject such a call outright. Large grain fields? Have you even played any other Elder Scrolls game? No ES game to my knowledge actually shows such things in-game. The ones in Skyrim are as big as the game world allows... When was Ulfric outvoted?

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

If we are going to judge farm sizes based on only what farms appear in each game, then EVERYONE in Tamriel would be starving to death. There are nowhere near enough farms in any of the games to support their population. I think that Skyrim actually has more farms in it than Cyrodil does, if we go by in-game representation. Also, Sybile is probably not an unbiased source, for the reasons I gave in my last post. 25 years is a long time, Hitler did not need nearly that many to turn Germany back into a superpower. The Markarth incident was not a temper tantrum, Ulfric offered to free the Reach in return for religious freedom, Igmund accepted, and then the Empire betrayed him. And I already said that Ulfric will not attack the AD on his own, he will get support from High Rock, Hammerfell, or both. And the dragonborn argument works both ways, how is the Empire supposed to defeat the AD when they can't quell a rebellion without the help of the dragonborn?

 

EDIT:Why do you think Ulfric would sit back while the AD attacked Cyrodil? He would probably go help the Empire or launch a suprise attack on the Summerset Isles.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Elimc

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

If we are going to judge farm sizes based on only what farms appear in each game, then EVERYONE in Tamriel would be starving to death. There are nowhere near enough farms in any of the games to support their population. I think that Skyrim actually has more farms in it than Cyrodil does, if we go by in-game representation. Also, Sybile is probably not an unbiased source, for the reasons I gave in my last post. 25 years is a long time, Hitler did not need nearly that many to turn Germany back into a superpower. The Markarth incident was not a temper tantrum, Ulfric offered to free the Reach in return for religious freedom, Igmund accepted, and then the Empire betrayed him. And I already said that Ulfric will not attack the AD on his own, he will get support from High Rock, Hammerfell, or both. And the dragonborn argument works both ways, how is the Empire supposed to defeat the AD when they can't quell a rebellion without the help of the dragonborn?

 

EDIT:Why do you think Ulfric would sit back while the AD attacked Cyrodil? He would probably go help the Empire or launch a suprise attack on the Summerset Isles.

 

I am not judging based on farm sizes but on terrain and type of agriculture. Skyrim is mostly rocky and not well suited to larger scale food production. It isn't the kind of terrain that is the breadbasket of anywhere.

 

As for Germany, they started WWII with insufficient anything and did as well as they did mostly because everyone they fought were in the same situation and didn't re-arm to the same degree. They beat France on maneuver far more than on numbers. They were only successful against Russia until Russia managed to properly arm and mobilize. The Thalmor aren't showing the same kind of disarmament that Europe or North America engaged in after WWI. To the contrary, they are rebuilding also and are also prepping for a continuation. They started the prior war and their goals have not been met yet.

 

The situation during those 25 years has been a cold war, not peace time or demobilization.

 

The difference between the situation of the Empire and that of the Stormcloaks is that the Empire have the Thalmor at their backs and must divide their troops accordingly. The Stormcloaks are only dealing with one threat with no other force at their backs (other than possibly the Foresworn, but again that is a situation that should have been resolvable diplomatically).

[kimmera]

Assuming the Stormcloak can take Solitude, they have all but won the war. They have no interest in "defeating" the Empire, just driving their political (commerce is fine) influence out of Skyrim. Given that the East Empire Company can and will still operate in Windhelm fresh out of a war with the Empire, I don't think the Stormcloaks warring with the Thalmor will make the Empire any more or less comfortable trading with Skyrim. The Stormcloaks are only fighting the Empire because they, the Stormcloaks, assume that the Empire has no interest in warring with the Dominion (whether that assumption is correct is another story). Should the Empire sound the horn for a Tamrielic coalition against the Thalmor within and outside the Empire (whenever that happens), the Stormcloaks may be suspicious, but I doubt they will reject such a call outright. Large grain fields? Have you even played any other Elder Scrolls game? No ES game to my knowledge actually shows such things in-game. The ones in Skyrim are as big as the game world allows... When was Ulfric outvoted?

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but does the AD even have borders with Skyrim? I thought any fighting would have to go through Cyrodil? In which case the Empire would bear the brunt of any fighting, which would presumably not be good for trade with Skyrim (since the Empire would need those resources internally and/or lose them in war).

 

As I said in the other post, the terrain in Skyrim doesn't show any hints of being agriculture friendly. It isn't just farms not being visible but a question of where to farm....