Elimc Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 @Kimmera You actually do not agree with me regarding the Imperial situation. I am saying that they are dead already and Skyrim needs to leave so they do not get pulled down with them. You are saying the Empire is not dead but it will be ONLY if Skyrim leaves. We have limited evidence about the Empire, so both of the views are supportable. But what evidence do you have of Ulfric being power hungry. Sure he wants the throne, but is that out of selfishness or a desire to rid the world of Thalmor? How is Ulfric stubborn. He agrees to go to a peace confrence on High Hrothgar, so he can't be that stubborn. Yes, taking Whiterun wasn't subtle, but he needed to take it or he could never have won the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 @Kimmera You actually do not agree with me regarding the Imperial situation. I am saying that they are dead already and Skyrim needs to leave so they do not get pulled down with them. You are saying the Empire is not dead but it will be ONLY if Skyrim leaves. We have limited evidence about the Empire, so both of the views are supportable. But what evidence do you have of Ulfric being power hungry. Sure he wants the throne, but is that out of selfishness or a desire to rid the world of Thalmor? How is Ulfric stubborn. He agrees to go to a peace confrence on High Hrothgar, so he can't be that stubborn. Yes, taking Whiterun wasn't subtle, but he needed to take it or he could never have won the war. If the Empire is dead, they wouldn't be able to resist the Stormcloaks at all. I am saying they need the Stormcloaks with them to resist the Thalmor, and from that it follows that the Stormcloaks need to be with the Empire to resist the Thalmor. If you think the Thalmor are an issue now, then they will be much worse if Skyrim tries to stand against them alone. Declaring yourself strong does not equate to being strong. As for the peace conference, Tullius goes for a chance to end the war and Ulfic goes out of tradition and respect for the Greybeards. Admittedly Ulfric is slightly easier to convince but might be due to overconfidence and thinking the talks are a sign of weakness on the part of the Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rms827 Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 LOL, amazing that after all this time, this is still such a hot debate. :) I think it's a good thing though. It means people are thinking. I admit, I'm not about to read through 58 pages of replies. I'll just offer my opinion. I've played EVERY TES game that's come out. Even Battlespire and Redguard. In the games where the Empire was a factor in the story, they generally were a force for good, or at least law and order (NOT the same thing BTW). To be blunt, that drastically changed in Skywind. Whatever your real life political view, I think we can all agree that the common sense FIRST responsibility of a government is the protection of it's citizens. The Empire has completely failed it's people in that regard! Granted they NEARLY got beat by the Aldmeri Dominion in the "great war" 20 game years prior to Skyrim starting. Yes they were forced into a peace treaty too. Context clues tell us the Aldmeri Dominion wasn't in much better shape either at the end of the war. Hammerfell is independent now and has successfully held off the Dominion for starters. It's mentioned in a few books & such that the Wood Elves aren't all that thrilled with being in the Dominion either. I'm pointing that out because in the past I've seen the argument that a united Empire is the only way to stop the Dominion, and "we just need to give them time to regroup". They've had 20 years to do so while Hammerfell has kept the Dominion out all by itself. 20 years of failing it's citizens and letting Thalmor gestapo agents drag off citizens in the night to be "re-educated", imprisoned & murdered. THAT, even more than religious freedom, is why I consistently side with the Stormcloaks. People also seem to come to the conclusion that Skyrim would be fighting all of Tamriel alone of the rebellion succeeds. That's silly, Alliances can be formed and ultimately a new Empire might even be formed. At any rate, it's just common sense that Skyrim would seek an alliance with Hammerfell against the Dominion. After that, if I was Skyrim and Hammerfell, I'd liberate Daggerfall, begin a counterinsurgency campaign to support Wood Elf rebels, and once Daggerfall was free, I'd get everybody behind taking back Cyrodil or maybe Morrowind. The Dark Elves have no love for Summerset Isle after all. Hell, reading all the books in-game, it seems the only die hard allies that the Elves of Summerset Isles have at the Khajitt thanks to that bringing back the "vanished" moon trick the Thalmor pulled. Convince the Khajitt that was a trick somehow and you might even get them to turn on the Elves. Long story short, a new war is VERY winnable with a little common sense. What it all comes back to though is no government that allows it's citizens to be dragged off by the secret police of some foreign power has a right to rule over its people. They've already failed those citizens at the most fundamental level, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 Of course things can't be tipped too far in favour of the Dominion. It would make future storytelling unnecessarily difficult. Despite Skyrim's historic place within the Empire, it is Redguard that are known as the skilled warrior race. Meanwhile Skyrim seems pretty divided, and given the moot didn't choose him, it seems questionable that Ulfric would be the best choice to unite it. As for the suggestion of an alliance between the Stormcloaks and Hammerfell, if that was likely wouldn't we have seen at least some evidence of diplomatic relations between the two regions? It was 20 years between WWI and WWII, and that is all after the industrial revolution and the invention of mass production. Even then Germany won mostly on taking advantage of the mobility afforded by newer technologies. At the level of technology Nirn is sitting at, it seems likely it would take significantly longer to recover and regroup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted May 5, 2015 Share Posted May 5, 2015 @Kimmera You keep saying that the moot didn't choose Ulfric, but what you leave out is that Ulfric was in prison when the moot met. It is likely that his father was still Jarl of Windhelm at that point, so the reason the moot didn't choose Ulfric is simply that they didn't have the opportunity to. Why would we see diplomatic relations between Hamerfell and Skyrim BEFORE Skyrim becomes a nation. Also, I never said the Legion was dead, I said the rest of the Empire was dying and that once it does die, the Legion will disband into chaos. And I don't see how you can say that because it is easier to persuade Ulfric to come to the peace confrence, that means he has less intrest in peace. When I did Season Unending, neither side wanted peace, Tullius just came so the Empire wouldn't look unreasonable, and Ulfric came because of Alduin. Why do you think that an alliance between Skyrim and Hammerfell would be any less powerful than an alliance between Skyrim and Cyrodill. High Rock would probably help out either side, because as far as I know they are probably 1000 different city-states who don't like the Thalmor. And if High Rock is still a loyal part of the Empire as you probably claim, then why did Ulfric bother sending a messenger to ask for help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Also, does anyone know how to add a signature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notmyhome Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Even then Germany won mostly on taking advantage of the mobility afforded by newer technologies. What.Germany won?As a German, that's new to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Even then Germany won mostly on taking advantage of the mobility afforded by newer technologies. What.Germany won?As a German, that's new to me. It is news to you that Germany defeated France? They got kicked out again after D-Day but they did hold it until the Allies managed to mobilize sufficiently to manage that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 @Kimmera Regardless of what technology Germany used, Hitler still was able to turn it into a superpower in much less than 25 years. The Empire is still falling apart and hasn't shown any proof that they are rebuilding. Also, you failed to adress any points in my last post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 @Kimmera Regardless of what technology Germany used, Hitler still was able to turn it into a superpower in much less than 25 years. The Empire is still falling apart and hasn't shown any proof that they are rebuilding. Also, you failed to adress any points in my last post You are both ignoring mass production and also ignoring the fact that the initial victories were only achieved by bypassing the majority of the foreign troops Germany faced. And once the Allies started to understand that tactic, they figured out how to counter it. Temporary victories by catching opponents off guard does not equate to 'a superpower.' They completely botched the Battle of Britain, throwing away most of their air force in the attempt. They simply did not have the resources to do anything other than eventually lose the war. Are you arguing that the Empire should take a similar path even though it would likely have the same result or worse? The toughest fighting force in Skyrim is arguably the foresworn. Strong raw combat skills supported by high levels of magic use, but they are diplomatically shunned by both Empire and Stormcloaks @Kimmera You keep saying that the moot didn't choose Ulfric, but what you leave out is that Ulfric was in prison when the moot met. It is likely that his father was still Jarl of Windhelm at that point, so the reason the moot didn't choose Ulfric is simply that they didn't have the opportunity to. Why would we see diplomatic relations between Hamerfell and Skyrim BEFORE Skyrim becomes a nation. Also, I never said the Legion was dead, I said the rest of the Empire was dying and that once it does die, the Legion will disband into chaos. And I don't see how you can say that because it is easier to persuade Ulfric to come to the peace confrence, that means he has less intrest in peace. When I did Season Unending, neither side wanted peace, Tullius just came so the Empire wouldn't look unreasonable, and Ulfric came because of Alduin. Why do you think that an alliance between Skyrim and Hammerfell would be any less powerful than an alliance between Skyrim and Cyrodill. High Rock would probably help out either side, because as far as I know they are probably 1000 different city-states who don't like the Thalmor. And if High Rock is still a loyal part of the Empire as you probably claim, then why did Ulfric bother sending a messenger to ask for help? Was he in prison at the time? I can't find any information on when exactly that moot was held. Why would they have chosen Torygg over his father if his father was still alive at the time of the moot and Torygg was so weak? All accounts seem to suggest there was no opposition to Torygg. Waiting until the end of a war to engage in diplomacy is short sighted and foolish. Both sides in most civil wars engage in discussions with foreign powers. Why wouldn't you try to obtain aid when you need it most? As for why Skyrim / Cyrodill makes more sense than Skyrim / Hammerfell, either or both would have to go through Cyrodil to take on the AD. Not allying with the Empire means fighting their way through the Empire first, which in turn means taking on the both the Empire and the AD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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