Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Germany lost mostly because

a(Hitler bombed British cities instead of airfields, which allowed the RAF to recover.

b(invading one of his allies(Russia)

c(invading one of his allies(Russia) in the winter.

d(being outnumberedy

All of these things would not apply to the Empire and mostly involve Hitler being stupid, so you cannot definitively say that Hitler would have lost WWII if he had been smart. Also, Hitler did manage to keep cities from falling into chaos because of drug lords, something any reasonably strong nation should be able to do easily. However, Cicero mentions that many cities have fallen, so how powerful is the Empire really?

In my opinion the strongest force in Skyrim would be an army of cave bears, not Forsworn. Those things are insanely overpowered, but that's off topic. The reason I said Ulfric was in prison during Torygg's moot was that all the lore says Torygg's father was on the throne during the Markarth Incident, and Torygg was on the throne after it. Also, the moot is completely ceremonial except when a king dies without a heir, or when a king refuses a challenge, so it would have been hard for Ulfric to get himself elected even if the moot happened after he got out of jail, something we aren't even sure of. And at that point Ulfric would have been relatively young so most Jarls probably wouldn't vote for him even if they disliked the Empire. Skyrim has already asked High Rock for help, for all we know they have asked Hammerfell too. The reason this isn't included in the game could be that it would vastly tip the balance in the favor of the Stormcloaks, so we don't know that Hammerfell isn't about to ally with Skyrim. Also Hammerfell has the most powerful navy of any human nation, so sailing around Cyrodil to launch a surprise attack in Valenwood is a very plausible strategy. Also they could gain permission from TMII or whoever rules the Empire to march their armies through a bit of Cyrodil to attack Valenwood.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

Germany lost mostly because

a(Hitler bombed British cities instead of airfields, which allowed the RAF to recover.

b(invading one of his allies(Russia)

c(invading one of his allies(Russia) in the winter.

d(being outnumberedy

All of these things would not apply to the Empire and mostly involve Hitler being stupid, so you cannot definitively say that Hitler would have lost WWII if he had been smart. Also, Hitler did manage to keep cities from falling into chaos because of drug lords, something any reasonably strong nation should be able to do easily. However, Cicero mentions that many cities have fallen, so how powerful is the Empire really?

 

 

a) It was more complicated than that. Germany didn't realize the RAF radar set up and couldn't afford proper recon. That was a huge advantage to the defenders. The Germans also misused their heavy fighters, using them as escort, a role to which they were not suited. The Thalmor do not seem to have made any equivalent mistakes and neither the Empire nor Skyrim have any known comparable advantages.

 

b) Russia wasn't an ally. They did split Poland, but that was as far as the 'alliance' went. They didn't supply each other or trade, and Russia wouldn't have ignored German expansionism forever. Besides, after the Germans tossed most of their aircraft away losing the Battle of Britain, allied bombers were free to bomb German refineries. Germany desperately needed new oil reserves, and the only viable source was Russia. The Skyrim related mistake here would of course be Skyrim and/or Hammerfell turning on the Empire in impatience to hit the Thalmor. Not only would that involve turning against the Empire but also hostile supply lines if they ever do reach AD borders.

 

c) The invasion was originally scheduled to start in May and was delayed until late June. You need to re-read your history books. It lasted into the winter because Russia resisted, and the winter was hard on Russian troops too. No Skyrim related analogies here that I can think of.

 

d) Do you have details of Thalmor troop strengths that no one else seems to have? Skyrim was still supporting the Empire during the war, yet the two together were not enough to push them back. Unlike Soviet Russia, the Empire had no industrialization option. They couldn't simply mass produce armament as needed. Nor is there any indication that the Thalmor have the same kind of resource strains that Germany faced.

 

Again when White Gold Concordant was signed, the Stormcloaks and Skyrim were still supporting the Empire. The Empire plus the Stormcloaks were not in and of themselves enough. Then Ulfric throws his temper tantrum and suddenly it is the Empire without the Stormcloaks. How, exactly is this a wise course of action? How exactly is this better for Skyrim other than an immediate illusion of freedom?

 

 

 

 

@Kimmera

 

 

In my opinion the strongest force in Skyrim would be an army of cave bears, not Forsworn. Those things are insanely overpowered, but that's off topic. The reason I said Ulfric was in prison during Torygg's moot was that all the lore says Torygg's father was on the throne during the Markarth Incident, and Torygg was on the throne after it. Also, the moot is completely ceremonial except when a king dies without a heir, or when a king refuses a challenge, so it would have been hard for Ulfric to get himself elected even if the moot happened after he got out of jail, something we aren't even sure of. And at that point Ulfric would have been relatively young so most Jarls probably wouldn't vote for him even if they disliked the Empire. Skyrim has already asked High Rock for help, for all we know they have asked Hammerfell too. The reason this isn't included in the game could be that it would vastly tip the balance in the favor of the Stormcloaks, so we don't know that Hammerfell isn't about to ally with Skyrim. Also Hammerfell has the most powerful navy of any human nation, so sailing around Cyrodil to launch a surprise attack in Valenwood is a very plausible strategy. Also they could gain permission from TMII or whoever rules the Empire to march their armies through a bit of Cyrodil to attack Valenwood.

 

Yes yes.. and an army of Dragons used properly would make the cave bears seem pathetic. Think high level bombing. Neither the Cave Bears nor Dragons are an organized force (other than the latter under Alduin, of course). The Foresworn, on the other hand, are an organized force.

 

There is no evidence of correspondence with Hammerfell. Nothing in Ulfric's chambers, no mention of it in his dialogue, nothing. You may as well have said "When J'Zargo perfects his destruction skill, he will defeat the entire Aldmeri Dominion in a single spell cast." Might happen... but there is no evidence.

 

Getting permission from the Empire is effectively the same as formal alliance. The Thalmor are not going to ignore troops marching through the Empire towards them and are not going to politely wait to face those troops on their own soil.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

On the whole Germany thing, if Germany had bombed the RAF out of existence instead of bombing London and not invaded Russia until after they conquered Europe and not declared war on the U.S., then they might have been able to win the war. Hitler had the resources to do it, he just got overconfident and made many idiotic descisions. So, there is no excuse for the Empire not being able to fight back after all this time, unless they aren't going to be able or willing to fight back ever.

 

Also, Ulfric defeated the Forsworn when all he had was a small militia, so they can't be that powerful.

 

If Ulfric was declaring war on the AD, then a few Thalmor officers trying to arrest him for tresspasing wouldn't do anything. Or he could just sail around the Empire if it still wouldn't help him.

 

There is no proof that Hammerfell would ally with Ulfric, but since they don't like the dominion either, if Ulfric attacked the AD then Hammerfell would probably help him.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

On the whole Germany thing, if Germany had bombed the RAF out of existence instead of bombing London and not invaded Russia until after they conquered Europe and not declared war on the U.S., then they might have been able to win the war. Hitler had the resources to do it, he just got overconfident and made many idiotic descisions. So, there is no excuse for the Empire not being able to fight back after all this time, unless they aren't going to be able or willing to fight back ever.

 

You really need to study your history more in depth. Germany didn't invade Russia until June 1941 with the decision to do so made December 1940. The Battle of Britain was deemed lost by October 1940. Germany had failed to defeat Britain, and contrary to what you seem to think, nations do not have unlimited resources nor unlimited production.

 

The target decisions of the Luftwaffe were based on bad assumptions coupled with limited intelligence gathering ability. It didn't help that German pilots seriously exaggerated their kill ratios.

 

Real war isn't like most board games you might have played. Sides are not equal, there is a general lack of information and military decisions should be made with great caution. Like the Germans, Ulfric (and you) are making strategic decisions on bravado and assumptions. You are gambling the people of Skyrim on your theories. Thankfully in this case they are fictional troops and neither you nor Ulfric are in charge of any real lives.

 

 

 

 

Also, Ulfric defeated the Forsworn when all he had was a small militia, so they can't be that powerful.

 

If Ulfric was declaring war on the AD, then a few Thalmor officers trying to arrest him for tresspasing wouldn't do anything. Or he could just sail around the Empire if it still wouldn't help him.

 

There is no proof that Hammerfell would ally with Ulfric, but since they don't like the dominion either, if Ulfric attacked the AD then Hammerfell would probably help him.

 

Ufric didn't have a 'small militia.' He had a full military command, the same unit he went to war with. It isn't clear if the Foresworn were all in Markarth at the time either. It is also possible that the Foresworn didn't turn to the Hagravens until after their defeat at Markarth.

 

I agree that an alliance with Hammerfell would be beneficial to both Hammerfell and Skyrim but Hammerfell are likely to take war seriously whereas Ulfric is impatient. It would be even more beneficial for both to ally with the remains of the Empire. Also someone should grab a brain an re-form the Blades. Properly. Not as a 'OMG, DRAGONS' unit but as the Imperial Secret Service (or even Skyrim Secret Service) that they have been through most of their modern history.

[kimmera]

It is also worth noting that Ulfric starts the game as a prisoner about to be executed. If the Empire is that weak and/or unworthy of being backed, how was Ulfric defeated and captured?

[MidbossVyers]

It is also worth noting that Ulfric starts the game as a prisoner about to be executed. If the Empire is that weak and/or unworthy of being backed, how was Ulfric defeated and captured?

Yes, but then he escaped. And before you say that that escape didn't "count" because it was due to Alduin, let me remind you that a major factor during the Battle of Red Cliffs in Chinese history was the wind changing direction.

[kimmera]

 

It is also worth noting that Ulfric starts the game as a prisoner about to be executed. If the Empire is that weak and/or unworthy of being backed, how was Ulfric defeated and captured?

Yes, but then he escaped. And before you say that that escape didn't "count" because it was due to Alduin, let me remind you that a major factor during the Battle of Red Cliffs in Chinese history was the wind changing direction.

 

 

But that factor the winds are changing for is you, the Dragonborn, not so much Ulfric himself. The Dragons keep both sides somewhat pinned down. Note that resolving the conflict either way (Empire, Stormcloaks, or formal truce) is a requirement the Dragonborn must achieve before being able to defeat Alduin, and that choice and the results are based on the Dragonborn's decisions, not those of Ulfric or Tullius.

 

In terms of the Alduin crisis, the civil war is just a dangerous distraction in those winds, and needs to end before the bigger picture, the immediate threat to all existence can be eliminated.

 

This is not Red Cliffs. The wind can change direction here, but it is a conscious decision on the part of a third party that changes them.

Edited May 11, 2015 by kimmera

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

I am saying that Hitler did have the resources to win the war, and he possibly could have, it he had not attacked Russia or declared war on America. In any war all generals gamble the lives of their troops on the decisions they make. Ulfric never says he will immediately attack the AD, first he is going to rebuild Skyrim. I am more inclined to believe him than the Empire, mostly because the Empire has already had 25 years and hasn't done anything yet. After all, not attacking the AD is also a gamble just as much as attacking them is. What if they are really weak right now and could easily be finished off? Or what if they are impossibly strong and waiting is the only chance to try to recover enough to face them? We don't know and have to make a guess based on the sources we have.

 

I think some people joined Ulfric's armies after he declared independence from the Empire. Just a thought, no evidence, but it seems pretty reasonable.

 

Like I said earlier, Ulfric is only going to invade the AD after he gets ready, which will probably take a few years. NOT 25, just a few. Also, if the Empire tried to re-form the blades the Thalmor would just wipe them out all over again, along with whoever had made the decision to restart them. A reformation of the Blades could only happen if Ulfric won and used them as his own intelligence force.

 

And Ulfric being captured while traveling with a small bodyguard has nothing to do with the strength of his or the Empire's armies. After all, if he had been killed without a trial it would make him a martyr, drawing more people to the Stormcloaks. It also might get Balgruuf to join the Stormcloaks, since one of the reasons he was against them was a personal grudge against Ulfric for being selected by the Greybeards instead of him.

[Fistitron]

@Kimmera

 

Ulfric never says he will immediately attack the AD, first he is going to rebuild Skyrim. I am more inclined to believe him than the Empire, mostly because the Empire has already had 25 years and hasn't done anything yet. After all, not attacking the AD is also a gamble just as much as attacking them is. What if they are really weak right now and could easily be finished off? Or what if they are impossibly strong and waiting is the only chance to try to recover enough to face them? We don't know and have to make a guess based on the sources we have.

 

I think some people joined Ulfric's armies after he declared independence from the Empire. Just a thought, no evidence, but it seems pretty reasonable.

 

Like I said earlier, Ulfric is only going to invade the AD after he gets ready, which will probably take a few years. NOT 25, just a few. Also, if the Empire tried to re-form the blades the Thalmor would just wipe them out all over again, along with whoever had made the decision to restart them. A reformation of the Blades could only happen if Ulfric won and used them as his own intelligence force.

 

And Ulfric being captured while traveling with a small bodyguard has nothing to do with the strength of his or the Empire's armies. After all, if he had been killed without a trial it would make him a martyr, drawing more people to the Stormcloaks. It also might get Balgruuf to join the Stormcloaks, since one of the reasons he was against them was a personal grudge against Ulfric for being selected by the Greybeards instead of him.

He can try to rebuild Skyrim, but the thing about the Dominion? They're strong. They're -very- strong. The Empire signed the White Gold Treaty because it would not have lasted, it could not have won the battle in any way, shape or form. We are talking about the group that killed the Mane and most likely hid the moons, before pretending they fixed something. People who can make moons vanish from the sky are not necessarily too worried by a bunch of northern barbarians half the world away.

 

It would take well more than a few years, unless Ulfric is, say, an impulsive character with bad diplomatic skills who tends to be a bit headstrong and- oh. Wait. That's exactly what he is. Ulfric taking on the might of the Dominion in a few years is suicide, any way you look at it. There's no hopeful battle, there is simply him and his armies getting destroyed. Once again, they made the moons vanish.

 

And as for the Blades...Why would Ulfric be bothered with them? They're an Imperial faction, not Nordic. Once the dragons are gone, they're simply picking up their stuff, burning all evidence they were there, and going off anywhere else. Ulfric's more likely to exile them rather than keep them as spymasters, plus they've got a new emperor who, due to the fact the last one pretty much gave up his life voluntarily, will now no longer be burdened by the failures of the past

 

The Aldermi Dominion wants to end man as a concept. The only hope against that is man uniting against them. The Stormcloaks are only concerned for Skyrim and will let the world burn until they're right and ready, but by that point its too late. Thalmor only need one or two more Towers down, and then their plans become reality.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

I am saying that Hitler did have the resources to win the war, and he possibly could have, it he had not attacked Russia or declared war on America. In any war all generals gamble the lives of their troops on the decisions they make. Ulfric never says he will immediately attack the AD, first he is going to rebuild Skyrim. I am more inclined to believe him than the Empire, mostly because the Empire has already had 25 years and hasn't done anything yet. After all, not attacking the AD is also a gamble just as much as attacking them is. What if they are really weak right now and could easily be finished off? Or what if they are impossibly strong and waiting is the only chance to try to recover enough to face them? We don't know and have to make a guess based on the sources we have.

 

I think some people joined Ulfric's armies after he declared independence from the Empire. Just a thought, no evidence, but it seems pretty reasonable.

 

Like I said earlier, Ulfric is only going to invade the AD after he gets ready, which will probably take a few years. NOT 25, just a few. Also, if the Empire tried to re-form the blades the Thalmor would just wipe them out all over again, along with whoever had made the decision to restart them. A reformation of the Blades could only happen if Ulfric won and used them as his own intelligence force.

 

And Ulfric being captured while traveling with a small bodyguard has nothing to do with the strength of his or the Empire's armies. After all, if he had been killed without a trial it would make him a martyr, drawing more people to the Stormcloaks. It also might get Balgruuf to join the Stormcloaks, since one of the reasons he was against them was a personal grudge against Ulfric for being selected by the Greybeards instead of him.

 

As far as WWII, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. Rather than respond to my references to specific facts, you just keep falling back on 'Germany had the resources' with nothing backing that statement at all.

 

Skyrim doesn't need much rebuilding. It hasn't been hit. The Empire was hit hard, having had its capital city sacked. The fact that you don't seem to understand the difference in situation is, I suspect, the main reason you seem so are so one sided in your view here. And going to war because the enemy *might* be pretty weak is sheer folly. Britain *might* have surrendered a la France (even though German troops never set foot on the British Isles let alone enter London). Russia *might* have surrendered under the heavy sieges and losses of life the Germans inflicted. But they didn't. Both held just as Britain was likewise able to withstand and defeat Napoleon before. This theory that Skyrim alone could be 'ready' to do what Skyrim plus the Empire could not is just crazy. Note that Hammerfell was part of the Empire at the time of the war too. It was Hammerfell plus Skyrim, plus a much stronger than current Empire. So where is this theory that Skyrim and Hammerfell would be sufficient on their own coming from? Hammerfell kicked the Thalmor out of their region, but not beyond.

 

As for the Blades, they aren't something public. And they do still exist in Skyrim. So how exactly would the Thalmor simply know? And how would they know who was doing the rebuilding? If Ulfric or even Elsif put together a similar organization, how would that be against the treaty with the stormcloaks 'independant?' The civil war could actually be a great cover for rebuilding if used properly as a screen, especially with the Thalmor thinking the continuance of the civil war is in *their* favour. In fact, as long as the stalemate continues in the civil war, it is likely against Thalmor best interests, since both sides keep increasing mobilization levels and if they did unify in that state of mobilization, they would have a much better chance against the Thalmor than if they made peace and dropped troop strengths to peace time levels.

 

As for Ulfric being captured while travelling with a small bodyguard, what was he doing travelling with a small body guard in contested territory? He's lucky the Foresworn didn't get him. He'd likely just be dead.