Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Elimc]

@Fistiron

 

If the AD is so powerful, then how did Hammerfell drive them out and hold them off for five years, by themselves? And they were the main reason the AD invaded, so it was indeed the full might of the AD that they defeated. Also, why would Ulfric drive out the Blades? He has no reason to and they are just killing dragons. You make it seem like he is a insane paranoid maniac trying to usurp the throne... like many imperials. I was saying he could make his own Blades as an intelligence organization.

 

@Kimmera

 

If Germany had not declared war on the U.S.A. and Russia then they might have won. Instead, they declared war on two major world powers, and still managed to hold their own for a while. This should tell you that they had the ability to win, at least if they had only tried to take continental Europe and then slowly expanded into Russia.

They did this less than 25 years after being defeated in WWII. I think Skyrim and Hammerfell could defeat the AD because all evidence about them points to them being pretty weak, but having enough force to cow the Empire into submission. Since Hammefell can kick the AD out of their country, it reasons that Hammerfell and Skyrim could sucessfully invade Valenwood. I was saying that if the Empire won the war than the Thalmor would notice if someone started the Blades. I agree the civil war would be good if it was just a fake to cover a buildup of troops, but it is actually a war and the troops will be disbanded once it is over, with a lot of them dead. So the Thalmor are correct that the war stalemating is in their favor, because while it is a stalemate lots of people on both sides will die, and neither of them will become stronger. Ulfric was not captured anywhere near the Reach, so how would the Forsworn get him. I have no idea what Ulfric was doing with a small bodyguard, but it COULD have been an Imperial spy telling him to go there for some reason, and then alerting the Imperials to capture him.

[kimmera]

@Fistiron

 

If the AD is so powerful, then how did Hammerfell drive them out and hold them off for five years, by themselves? And they were the main reason the AD invaded, so it was indeed the full might of the AD that they defeated. Also, why would Ulfric drive out the Blades? He has no reason to and they are just killing dragons. You make it seem like he is a insane paranoid maniac trying to usurp the throne... like many imperials. I was saying he could make his own Blades as an intelligence organization.

 

@Kimmera

 

If Germany had not declared war on the U.S.A. and Russia then they might have won. Instead, they declared war on two major world powers, and still managed to hold their own for a while. This should tell you that they had the ability to win, at least if they had only tried to take continental Europe and then slowly expanded into Russia.

They did this less than 25 years after being defeated in WWII. I think Skyrim and Hammerfell could defeat the AD because all evidence about them points to them being pretty weak, but having enough force to cow the Empire into submission. Since Hammefell can kick the AD out of their country, it reasons that Hammerfell and Skyrim could sucessfully invade Valenwood. I was saying that if the Empire won the war than the Thalmor would notice if someone started the Blades. I agree the civil war would be good if it was just a fake to cover a buildup of troops, but it is actually a war and the troops will be disbanded once it is over, with a lot of them dead. So the Thalmor are correct that the war stalemating is in their favor, because while it is a stalemate lots of people on both sides will die, and neither of them will become stronger. Ulfric was not captured anywhere near the Reach, so how would the Forsworn get him. I have no idea what Ulfric was doing with a small bodyguard, but it COULD have been an Imperial spy telling him to go there for some reason, and then alerting the Imperials to capture him.

 

Hammerfell likely drove them out due to the AD being overextended at the time. Note the AD were not pushed back beyond the borders of Hammerfell. In fact, I'll turn your question around on you. If the AD were so weak, why did Hammerfell not simply keep going and conquer them?

 

 

As for WWII, you really need to grab some real history books and not just spout popular myth. The US was already passively in the war by way of supply to Britain, even if no troops were deployed. They were also fully mobilizing anyway due to the Japanese and Pearl. Similarly, Stalin was a lot of things, many of them very nasty, but he wasn't so much of an idiot to think that Germany would never turn its guns towards Russia. You have been playing too much Civilization or something. Real nations have real leaders at the helm, not idiot npcs who conveniently wait until you attack them.

 

Furthermore, the only response you have given to my pointing out the facts of the German supply situation has been 'Germany would have won if they had just beaten Britain before taking on the USSR,' repeatedly ignoring the fact that they had lost the Battle of Britain, no longer had air superiority, never had naval superiority, had zero chance of defeating Britain unless it simply surrendered (which it wasn't about to do), and meanwhile German refineries were being bombed into the dirt.

 

If you want to continue your statements regarding WWII, I suggest you visit the World of Tanks or World of Warplanes forums and see how well they fly there. Good luck.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

How was the AD overextened? They were only attacking Hammerfell. How is that overextending, unless they are actually weak? And if they are weak, then we need to attack them now before they get stronger.

 

Yes, the U.S. was helping Britain, but they were not supplying troops to help them, only supplies. Also, do you realize that Germany declared war on the U.S. first, not the other way around? We might have just attacked Japan and left Europe to fend for itself if Germany hadn't declared war on us. Yes, Stalin knew Hitler might attack him, but that doesn't effect the fact that if Hitler had not declared war on the U.S. he would have had better odds. And even if Hitler was completely doomed during WWII, it was because he was outnumbered. The Empire would not be in a similiar situation, since it would be facing only the AD with Hammerfell and Skyrim and High Rock as allies.

 

EDIT:The Forsworn have been turning into Briarhearts and Hagravens for centuries, read the legend of red eagle.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Elimc

[Fistitron]

@Fistiron

 

If the AD is so powerful, then how did Hammerfell drive them out and hold them off for five years, by themselves? And they were the main reason the AD invaded, so it was indeed the full might of the AD that they defeated. Also, why would Ulfric drive out the Blades? He has no reason to and they are just killing dragons. You make it seem like he is a insane paranoid maniac trying to usurp the throne... like many imperials. I was saying he could make his own Blades as an intelligence organization.

Hammerfell didn't keep them out, that's how

 

Hammerfell fought a massive guerrilla war against the AD. It wasn't an overpowering victory, it was a brutal, vicious campaign that wore them down, bit by bit. Southern Hammerfell, the part seceded to the Dominion, is mentioned as a "Devastated" nation when you hear mention of it. This isn't a battle you win, this is a battle most likely won by burning every building, field and structure in the region until nothing is left but wasteland

 

He would drive out the Blades because they work for the Empire. The Blades always have worked for the Empire, the introduction of the Dragonborn is a new thing and, well, you're the Last Dragonborn. Their involvement with the Empire is legendary and historic, even. As for the Blades themselves, well, Ulfric isn't Dragonborn, so they, quite frankly, have no concern with him. They're going to kill as many dragons as they can, and then vanish for a while. Maybe they'll turn up back home in Cyrodil and see what happens with the crowning of a new emperor. Maybe they'll fade into the annuals of history

 

They're not going to help out some complete stranger who's at war with the nation that most of them are from.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

How was the AD overextened? They were only attacking Hammerfell. How is that overextending, unless they are actually weak? And if they are weak, then we need to attack them now before they get stronger.

 

Yes, the U.S. was helping Britain, but they were not supplying troops to help them, only supplies. Also, do you realize that Germany declared war on the U.S. first, not the other way around? We might have just attacked Japan and left Europe to fend for itself if Germany hadn't declared war on us. Yes, Stalin knew Hitler might attack him, but that doesn't effect the fact that if Hitler had not declared war on the U.S. he would have had better odds. And even if Hitler was completely doomed during WWII, it was because he was outnumbered. The Empire would not be in a similiar situation, since it would be facing only the AD with Hammerfell and Skyrim and High Rock as allies.

 

EDIT:The Forsworn have been turning into Briarhearts and Hagravens for centuries, read the legend of red eagle.

 

 

Troops don't teleport conveniently wherever you want them. You cannot keep them simultaneously in Hammerfell, on the Imperial border, and patrolling Skyrim for Talos worshipers. When you are on foreign, hostile soil, supply is much more difficult. As Fistiron mention, the AD were facing a guerrilla war, which usually makes supply a much more difficult thing.

 

The US was brought into the war officially by pearl, but Britain didn't need troops to defend Britain. They needed steel and ammunition and aircraft and oil and food. Troop strengths would only have been relevant if Germany actually landed troops on Britain's shores and without Naval and Air superiority, that wasn't going to happen. It simply wasn't. Remember even without US involvement, Britain still had the Commonwealth and both Canada and Australia made very significant troop contributions.

 

Meanwhile back in Nirn, you keep ignoring the fact that during the war, Hammerfell and Skyrim were allied with the Empire. And although it was costly for the AD, the AD did sack the Imperial capital just the same and drove the Empire back. The portion of Hammerfell the Empire handed over was occupied territory at the time of the treaty signing.

 

The Foresworn did such conversions centuries ago, but it is not a given that they did so at the same rate they do currently, nor is it clear if they have been doing so continuously with no lapses over those centuries nor is it clear that all Foresworn communities did so. Certainly there is no mention of there being a 'hagraven quarter' of Markarth.

 

 

 

 

 

He would drive out the Blades because they work for the Empire. The Blades always have worked for the Empire, the introduction of the Dragonborn is a new thing and, well, you're the Last Dragonborn. Their involvement with the Empire is legendary and historic, even. As for the Blades themselves, well, Ulfric isn't Dragonborn, so they, quite frankly, have no concern with him. They're going to kill as many dragons as they can, and then vanish for a while. Maybe they'll turn up back home in Cyrodil and see what happens with the crowning of a new emperor. Maybe they'll fade into the annuals of history

 

They're not going to help out some complete stranger who's at war with the nation that most of them are from.

 

 

Indeed. The whole 'we are really Dragonhunters' seems completely out of the blue, especially given the Septim draconic blood. In fact, only Esbern really seemed to take the old legends seriously.

 

When I was talking about forming a new Blades division though, I wasn't talking about doing so literally. It seems pretty unenforceable for the White Gold Concordat to have an 'no covert ops' clause, since the typical definition of covert ops is operating outside the rules of international law, or at best in the grey areas. "Don't spy on us or we will declare war" doesn't normally need a clause in a treaty...

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

The AD was not in Skyrim until after the Markarth Incident, and they didn't need that large of a force on the Imperial border, so they had five years and most of their armies to capture Hammerfell, and they couldn't suceed. Also, why would the Redguards burn their own land? That would be a terrible idea, so it was probably the AD who devastated the land. But anyway, that was 25 years ago so they will have had time to recover. I was saying that Hitler had the resources to win the war until about 1940 or 1941. He lost because the Luftwaffe stopped bombing the RAF's airfields and radar stations, allowing the RAF to regroup. Up until the Battle of London, the Germans had air superiority, and it looked as if they were about to win. Then Hitler interfered with the invasion of Russia by telling his troops to not give up an inch of ground and forcing them to attack multiple targets at the same time. On the Forsworn, there are still not many Hagravens or Briarhearts, just a few. It isn't the fact that they can't spy on the AD, its the fact that they can't have any spies at all. If the try to start the Blades again, the Thalmor will find out and stop them.

[MidbossVyers]

I noticed something. The British regulars made the song, Yankee Doodle, to insult the colonial rebels. The colonial rebels reused that song as self-praise and then won the war. Xu Gong calls Sun Ce, the Little Conqueror, (or Xiang Yu Jr.) to insult him. Sun Ce obviously did not win the war as he was KIA, but he still outlived Xu Gong. I'm not sure what Sun Ce thought about that particular title at the time, but later people call him that, not as an insult, but to show that he was badass. Now, the term, "Stormcloak", was originally coined by detractors of Skyrim rebellion in order to belittle the cause (to say that the entire war was "Stormcloak's rebellion", in other words, Ulfric acting for his own interests), but later on, those same rebels used that term in self-praise (like Yankee), not just as Ulfric's name, but also to say that the Skyrim liberation army protects its own as a cloak and is devastating to its enemies, like a storm... Does that mean that they will win the war, or at the very least, outlast the other guy (the Legion)?

Edited May 18, 2015 by MidbossVyers

[Elimc]

@MidbossVyers

 

I am sure that plenty of people have done similiar things and still lost wars. Taking a name from an insult your enemies gave you does not guarantee victory

[MidbossVyers]

I know. Sun Ce still lost the war (after outlasting the guy who insulted him), but it's still badass.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

The AD was not in Skyrim until after the Markarth Incident, and they didn't need that large of a force on the Imperial border, so they had five years and most of their armies to capture Hammerfell, and they couldn't suceed. Also, why would the Redguards burn their own land? That would be a terrible idea, so it was probably the AD who devastated the land. But anyway, that was 25 years ago so they will have had time to recover. I was saying that Hitler had the resources to win the war until about 1940 or 1941. He lost because the Luftwaffe stopped bombing the RAF's airfields and radar stations, allowing the RAF to regroup. Up until the Battle of London, the Germans had air superiority, and it looked as if they were about to win. Then Hitler interfered with the invasion of Russia by telling his troops to not give up an inch of ground and forcing them to attack multiple targets at the same time. On the Forsworn, there are still not many Hagravens or Briarhearts, just a few. It isn't the fact that they can't spy on the AD, its the fact that they can't have any spies at all. If the try to start the Blades again, the Thalmor will find out and stop them.

 

The AD don't need that large a force on the Imperial border? You are suggesting that they would leave it pretty much unguarded and just march the majority of their troops into Hammerfell? That would be nuts. It would mean them suddenly trusting the Empire, which after Markarth (and likely before) they clearly do not.

 

The Redguard would burn their own land for the same reason Stalin did. When 'your own land' is held by the enemy, making it unusable to them cuts their supply more than it does yours. Why would the French resistance blow up 'their own' railways, food shipments, etc, etc, etc? Supply is a weapon. Hitting supply was also a key counter to Blitzkrieg tactics. While the enemy holds land, it isn't 'yours.' It is 'theirs'

 

Before the Battle of Britain, Germany was facing enemies it could out maneuver. French tanks had very little mobility and most did not have radios. The French also relied too heavily on the Maginot Line, despite the fact that Germany had already attacked through Belgium in WWI as well. German troops were in Paris before the majority of the French army could respond. Poland was just a matter of superior numbers.

 

During the Battle of Britain, Germany was no longer engaged in a land war. They were flying planes into hostile air space with little to no recon capacity. They didn't know where the radar stations were to target them. They couldn't tell where the airfields were. This isn't a wargame where you can study the map between games. New airfields can be built and meanwhile they had to get planes across the channel (meaning greater fuel costs and fuel limitations near targets). German pilots also greatly exaggerated kill ratios, leading German command to think the Brits had lost a lot more planes than they really had. Again, fog of war.

 

And again, you are arguing based on many unknowns, mainly on your assumption that AD troop strengths are weak and that everyone else is strong, which does not explain how the Empire was hit so hard in the first place. You may be right about the troop strengths, but I'd argue that proper recon needs to be done first before acting on any such assumptions. I further repeat that the Stormcloaks are not strong enough to defeat the currently weakened Empire without Dragonborn intervention. Although the converse is true, too, I don't think the troop strengths available against the AD are quite as high as you seem to think they are...... at least not until the next Elder Scrolls game, and then all bets are off. Heck ,with the Skeleton Key back in the lock, maybe now Skyrim will be able to win on 'luck' lol....