Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Elimc]

The Markarth Incident happened after the war with Hammerfell ended, so it is irrelevant to this discussion. Why would the AD need to keep a large number of troops in Cyrodill after they had just won the war. The Empire had surrendered, and was not going to attack again soon. They probably knew this from spies or from seeing the morale of the legion/ emporer, so why would they leave a large force in Cyrodil? Before the Luftwaffe started bombing cities, they were going after airfields and radar installations. Regardless of how frequently they found them, they were doing enough damage that the RAF would soon be out of commision. Then Hitler ordered them to bomb cities, so the RAF recovered and gained air superiority. Okay, the Redguards probably did burn their own land, but they have had 20 years to recover from that.

I am not saying anyone needs to invade the AD right now, I am saying that soon the AD will weaken all the other countries (except Hammerfell) if they are allowed to constantly spy on them and kill their citizens. They have been severely weakened by the Great War and the war with Hammerfell, there is no reason to keep surrendering to them except cowardice. Also, the Stormcloaks will get stronger in the coming years, which they will use to build Skyrim into a very powerful nation like Hammerfell.

[kimmera]

Not *in* Cyrodill, but on the border. Why so many American troops in Europe during the cold war? Why so many Soviet troops in Warsaw Pact countries?

 

Seriously, we are assuming these are real people not badly written NPC's. There is an obvious cold war between the AD and the Empire at the moment. Tullius talks of rebuilding for round two.

 

The Luftwaffe were going after radar and airfields when they could find them but as they lost more and more planes their ability to look for them rapidly diminished. Based on their pilots' kill reports, they also thought they RAF was already almost completely destroyed (which also might have been backed up by the apparent failure to find more radar sites or airfields. The RAF didn't just gain superiority because of the switch. They also gained superiority because North America and the Commonwealth were resupplying Britain. Germany had no such outside help.

 

That 20 years for the Redguards to recover assumes a couple things. First, that the Thalmor just completely ignored the region in the meanwhile (not a given) and second, that they had the resources to rebuild (getting crops back in play in that time maybe... resources for making new weapons might be less certain). And third, of course, all this assumes that the writers actually think about the economics of the situation as deeply as you or I. Why are all these ancient sites with valuable weapons including magical weapons 'lost' for apparently hundreds of years? It isn't like there is any obvious social stigma against clearing them and Skyrim has had the manpower...

 

Spying on other nations is not equivalent to 'seriously weakening' other than by way of encouraging the civil war and the Thalmor have had 20 years to rebuild too.. without their lands every having been touched.

 

That the Stormcloaks would get stronger without the civil war is academic, since the Thalmor would also get stronger in that time without having civil war losses, and without a civil war, the Empire would be rebuilding too. The Thalmor have successfully gotten their enemies weaker by turning them against themselves. What about that is good for the Empire, Skyrim, or even Hammerfell?

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

The AD would have left only enough forces to give the illusion of force on the border with Cyrodil, they would have sent most of their armies to the actual war, not the border with the already defeated country. Yes Cyrodil was rebuilding, but if the Thalmor's presence there was anywhere near their presence in Skyrim, then that would not have been a concern, and anyway, it still would have not been an immediate issue.

 

The Luftwaffe going after cities instead of airfields was not the only factor in the RAF's recovery, but it did help them.

 

What do you mean, of course the AD didn't completely ignore Hammerfell. They fought a war against it, and lost. No records show they have attempted a second invasion, so it seems like Hammerfell has been left alone. Why do you think it takes people more than 20 years to build a few mines and forges. I would argue that it would take longer for the agriculture of Hammerfell to recover than the military part of it.

 

What do random fetch quests for ancient artifacts have to do with Hammerfell's recovery. Sure, there is no reason why no one else has gotten them, but it would be a boring game if the Daedra picked other people to do their work and explorers had already found all the missing treasures.

 

If the Thalmor have a presence in Cyrodil that is even close to as strong as their presence in Skyrim, than they can do much more than spy. Nothing is good about a civil war, but it is better than doing nothing for 25 years and allowing the Thalmor to kill innocent people. Also, it takes elves longer to grow than it does men, so the AD will need centuries before it can completely rebuild to its former strength.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

The AD would have left only enough forces to give the illusion of force on the border with Cyrodil, they would have sent most of their armies to the actual war, not the border with the already defeated country. Yes Cyrodil was rebuilding, but if the Thalmor's presence there was anywhere near their presence in Skyrim, then that would not have been a concern, and anyway, it still would have not been an immediate issue.

 

The Luftwaffe going after cities instead of airfields was not the only factor in the RAF's recovery, but it did help them.

 

What do you mean, of course the AD didn't completely ignore Hammerfell. They fought a war against it, and lost. No records show they have attempted a second invasion, so it seems like Hammerfell has been left alone. Why do you think it takes people more than 20 years to build a few mines and forges. I would argue that it would take longer for the agriculture of Hammerfell to recover than the military part of it.

 

What do random fetch quests for ancient artifacts have to do with Hammerfell's recovery. Sure, there is no reason why no one else has gotten them, but it would be a boring game if the Daedra picked other people to do their work and explorers had already found all the missing treasures.

 

If the Thalmor have a presence in Cyrodil that is even close to as strong as their presence in Skyrim, than they can do much more than spy. Nothing is good about a civil war, but it is better than doing nothing for 25 years and allowing the Thalmor to kill innocent people. Also, it takes elves longer to grow than it does men, so the AD will need centuries before it can completely rebuild to its former strength.

 

A token force on the Cyrodil border? You do know that border troop strengths on a land border are relatively easy to estimate, right? You can make a force look smaller in such a situation via reserves but it is difficult to make it look larger.

 

We don't have records from Hammerfell or internal AD records (rather than just those at the Skyrim embassy), so I am not sure that you can conclude there have been no additional skirmishes on that border. It seems unlikely that the Thalmor wouldn't engage in espionage there at the very least. It may well be that there is internal infighting in Hammerfell too. We don't exactly up to date news from that region.

 

Random fetch quests? Pardon? I wasn't talking about radiant quests but about the non-random quests to investigate these ruins. And you are making my point when you say 'it would be a boring game if they were all pre-cleared. My point was that there are limits to what we can read into these situations. Hammerfell may be 'quiet' simply because the writers were writing a Skyrim game not a Hammerfell game. There has to be some reason for the apparent stasis on that border, but whenever that reason is revealed, it won't necessarily be a situation that backs your view of the world.

 

My position remains that much better recon and intelligence gathering should be made before rash actions. An alliance with Hammerfell shouldn't simply be assumed. What if they simply are content with being neutral? What then? Skyrim alone against the Thalmor? You are supporting war without even knowing the answers to such questions.

 

The Thalmor presence in Skyrim is one keep, greatly outnumbered just by the Foresworn let alone by Imperial or Stormcloak forces, plus exceedingly sparse wandering patrols of 3. That is hardly enough to do 'much more than spy.' And the Thalmor had a much larger HQ by Solitude but pulled out, so they actually have reduced their presence rather than increased it. I still maintain that if the Markarth incident hadn't happened, they likely would only have the Embassy and would be a lot less aggressive.

 

I don't think that relative reproductive rates have been an issue or the AD wouldn't exist at all. They would have been overrun by humans long ago. Besides, Skyrim seems to (mostly) shun magic, and thus inexplicably set aside their main weapon. (By the way, that cliche has always bothered me... why exactly do they shun magic? And what does it mean to shun magic when scrolls and spell books are hardly uncommon?)

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

The AD would need some force in Cyrodil, but they still would keep most of their army in Hammerfell, because an actual war is more important than a cold war. Yes, they would need to worry about the possibility the Empire might attack, but they would be more concerned with Hammerfell since there is a 100% chance that they will attack.

 

Since we don't have any recent news on Hammerfell, except from the "In my time of need" quest, and the lasts we heard of them was that they defeated the AD, we can assume that even if the AD has attacked them again, they have been defeated.

 

I never said that Skyrim would NEED to invade the AD, just that it would make sense. If Hammerfell stayed neutral then Skyrim probably would have to stay neutral as well just because they would be outnumbered. However, that does not make the Stormcloaks any less right, because if the Empire stays in charge, the Thalmor will be free to kidnap and torture anyone in Skyrim for worshipping Talos, as well as make sure that none of the remaining nations are ever able to build up an army large enough to oppose them.

 

The Thalmor presence in Skyrim is one fort, one Embassy/torture chamber, patrols that go around Skyrim to capture people, and an advisor in Markarth. Also, how often would you randomly encounter a Thalmor patrol, even if they were common? I mean, there are a lot of roads in Skyrim, and only one player, so how often would you randomly bump into a Thalmor patrol? Probably not that often. Without the Markarth Incident, the Thalmor would have no need for such a strong presence in Skyrim, since it wouldn't have been a threat to them. The moment something happened that would cause Skyrim to threaten the AD, the Thalmor would make up an excuse to be in Skyrim, and the Empire would be to scared to say no.

 

If elves reproduced as fast as humans, then they would have overrun humans, since they can live for a thousand years. Most nords in Skyrim do not know any magic, a few do, but most don't. Most of the mages in Skyrim are either elves or Bretons.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

The AD would need some force in Cyrodil, but they still would keep most of their army in Hammerfell, because an actual war is more important than a cold war. Yes, they would need to worry about the possibility the Empire might attack, but they would be more concerned with Hammerfell since there is a 100% chance that they will attack.

 

Since we don't have any recent news on Hammerfell, except from the "In my time of need" quest, and the lasts we heard of them was that they defeated the AD, we can assume that even if the AD has attacked them again, they have been defeated.

 

I never said that Skyrim would NEED to invade the AD, just that it would make sense. If Hammerfell stayed neutral then Skyrim probably would have to stay neutral as well just because they would be outnumbered. However, that does not make the Stormcloaks any less right, because if the Empire stays in charge, the Thalmor will be free to kidnap and torture anyone in Skyrim for worshipping Talos, as well as make sure that none of the remaining nations are ever able to build up an army large enough to oppose them.

 

The Thalmor presence in Skyrim is one fort, one Embassy/torture chamber, patrols that go around Skyrim to capture people, and an advisor in Markarth. Also, how often would you randomly encounter a Thalmor patrol, even if they were common? I mean, there are a lot of roads in Skyrim, and only one player, so how often would you randomly bump into a Thalmor patrol? Probably not that often. Without the Markarth Incident, the Thalmor would have no need for such a strong presence in Skyrim, since it wouldn't have been a threat to them. The moment something happened that would cause Skyrim to threaten the AD, the Thalmor would make up an excuse to be in Skyrim, and the Empire would be to scared to say no.

 

If elves reproduced as fast as humans, then they would have overrun humans, since they can live for a thousand years. Most nords in Skyrim do not know any magic, a few do, but most don't. Most of the mages in Skyrim are either elves or Bretons.

 

Could you cite something that allows the AD to actually occupy Cyrodill rather than have a diplomatic garrison there? Seriously, you are talking as if it was a surrender signed rather than a treaty.

 

It would only be a token force on the Cyrodill border if the the AD had complete trust in the Empire, which they clearly do not. And if the AD have a large force *in* Hammerfell, then the Redguard didn't kick the Thalmor out of Hammerfell after all. And there isn't '100% chance that Hammerfell will attack.' The Redguard stopped at the border when kicking the AD out. They didn't press in to AD territory or expand at all. Why suddenly stop when they are winning if they are planning on continuing later>

 

Skyrim does not have a 'stay neutral' option. Eliminating Talos worship is a primary goal of the Thalmor, part of their 'grand plan.' Since the Stormcloaks are attempting to ensure Skyrim stays a bastion of Talos worship, the Thalmor likely consider it a strategic target. The Thalmor were willing to trust the Empire, at least for a time, out of practicality, but the Markarth incident increased their strategic concerns over Talos worship.

 

My point on reproduction is that it likely simply isn't considered a strategic concern on the part of the writers. There have been major wars before, yet the elves survive. Magic is learn-able and Nords can learn it. The only thing that holds them back is custom, yet they don't destroy spell books or scrolls on sight and trade them freely like any other commodity, yet are ansy even about healing cast on them or a simply magelight spell. It is inconsistent...... and very cliche.

[Lillysdad2009]

Yeah I am totally with the group that states there is no right or wrong. I will say this, I always base my decision off of my idea of what my characters state of mind would be. Not so much the race part, because the stormcloaks will accept you either way. If I am a Nord hunter character, obviously the stormcloaks make more sense. If I were an Imperial merchant, I would go with the Empire. If you think too much about the right decision, IMO you have already made a mistake. I would say both are equally as bad and good as the other. I will also say this, for everyone that claims that Ulfric is a complete racist. The guy was tortured, for a really long time. I don't care if I was captured and tortured by bunnies. When it was over, I don't think I would feel the same way towards bunnies any more. Also even if you join the empire, the Khajiit and Argonians are never allowed inside the cities.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

I meant on the border with Cyrodil, not actually in it. Also, I meant during the war with Hammerfell, when the Redguards were driving the AD out of Hammerfell. So while the AD wouldn't leave only a token force on the border of Cyrodil, it would not have been as strong as the one the Redguards were fighting in Hammerfell.

 

Skyrim does have a "Let the AD invade a hostile, freezing land" option, which would probably work rather well.

 

Yes, but since elves live longer than men, they also have to reproduce slower, or otherwise they would take over the world based on numbers alone.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

I meant on the border with Cyrodil, not actually in it. Also, I meant during the war with Hammerfell, when the Redguards were driving the AD out of Hammerfell. So while the AD wouldn't leave only a token force on the border of Cyrodil, it would not have been as strong as the one the Redguards were fighting in Hammerfell.

 

Skyrim does have a "Let the AD invade a hostile, freezing land" option, which would probably work rather well.

 

Yes, but since elves live longer than men, they also have to reproduce slower, or otherwise they would take over the world based on numbers alone.

 

With respect to troop deployments, it depends on how important the Thalmor really considered Hammerfell to be and what they had to work with. The fact that they do have troops to spare to garrison a keep in Skyrim as well as patrols in that region despite the obvious threat of Hammerfell and the potential threat of a recovered Empire suggests that they cannot be all that weak.

 

As for reproduction, you are assuming that reproductive rates are entirely what we would call natural. Elves could be very good at birth control, for example, or have divine regulated birth control, only reproducing 'in time of need.' The whole issue of childhood for very long lived races is problematic regardless. Do they age normally until adulthood and then slow? Or do they have hundred plus year long childhoods, irrespective of the fact that as time passes they would mature, ending up like Babette, adults in the bodies of children? It is very likely that the writers have simply wisely chosen to ignore such paradoxes.

 

Similarly, if a typical adult Elf is 100+ years old, why do Elven PC's start only with the same skill levels and knowledge as Human PC's? What exactly have they been doing with all that extra time? Again, such paradoxes are typically ignored (note this is true in virtually all fantasy, not just Elder Scrolls). Again, it is safer to assume that such concerns are not relevant unless we are specifically told otherwise.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Hammerfell was originally the main focus of the AD's invasion, so they considered it just as important if not more important than Cyrodil. Also, as you said a couple posts ago, the garrison in Northwatch keep is very small, only enough to keep out bandits or monsters, not enough to stop an army.

 

The book, "The Real Barenziah" tells us that elves only have children at rare intervals, if at all.

 

You are citing a game mechanic as lore. Why would Bethesda make elves start out more powerful than men, even if they have been alive longer? It would make anyone who chose to be an elf have an extremely easy game, at least at the beginning.