Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

Hammerfell was originally the main focus of the AD's invasion, so they considered it just as important if not more important than Cyrodil. Also, as you said a couple posts ago, the garrison in Northwatch keep is very small, only enough to keep out bandits or monsters, not enough to stop an army.

 

The book, "The Real Barenziah" tells us that elves only have children at rare intervals, if at all.

 

You are citing a game mechanic as lore. Why would Bethesda make elves start out more powerful than men, even if they have been alive longer? It would make anyone who chose to be an elf have an extremely easy game, at least at the beginning.

 

 

The AD's initial objective was to overrun Hammerfell but that does not necessarily mean it was the primary objective. That would be like assuming that the German's main objective was to take over Poland, and all else was gravy.

 

They may well have considered Hammerfell disorganized and easier to take than Cyrodiil. Just as with Poland, the objective of taking the Hammerfell coastline likely was a strategic move to position them better with respect to taking on Cyrodiil.

 

"Rare intervals" is a convenient phrase that can mean anything the writers want it to, such as "after a great crisis" or "in times of war" And note that I was pointing out that game mechanic as a standard discrepancy. It isn't just PC elves. Thalmor troops aren't max skill in everything or even anything, and many of the top trainers in Skyrim are better than Elven counterparts.

 

By the way, if Elven reproduction puts them at such a disadvantage, how were they so more able to recover from the Oblivion crisis? Or (as I asked before) other prior wars and calamities? As I said, the writers likely simply ignore such questions. If you can find evidence to the contrary, please present it.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Still, the AD considered Hammerfell just as important as Cyrodil. To use your analogy, that would be like saying that if Poland had somehow managed to drive back Hitler, he would have just left them alone and moved on to other countries.

 

The writers did adress this in "The Real Barenziah", it says that elves have children at very rare intervals, and mature at a similiar rate to humans, at least until they are 20.

 

They recovered from the Oblivion Crisis because they had about a century to rebuild before they started the Great War.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

Still, the AD considered Hammerfell just as important as Cyrodil. To use your analogy, that would be like saying that if Poland had somehow managed to drive back Hitler, he would have just left them alone and moved on to other countries.

 

The writers did adress this in "The Real Barenziah", it says that elves have children at very rare intervals, and mature at a similiar rate to humans, at least until they are 20.

 

They recovered from the Oblivion Crisis because they had about a century to rebuild before they started the Great War.

 

Poland did manage to drive back Hitler, with allied help, by the end of the war. Germany was already losing the war at that point though. Besides, you are making my point rather that refuting it. You are talking about the importance of Hammerfell after the war (which was when they drove the AD out), not during the war, at the end of which Hammerfell was occupied.

 

The AD didn't take Hammerfell very seriously. They took it for strategic reasons, but then when they saw the Empire was weaker than they thought, they diverted the majority of their troops to Cyodiil, giving Hammerfell a chance to recover and unify against them. They got greedy and paid for it. Now they are weaker, facing the threat of a unified Hammerfell (which signed a separate treaty with them, of which we know little in the way of details) and the potential of a recovering Empire.

 

Skyrim was not a demand (other than Talos worship) but only because they have no direct land connection to Skyrim.

 

 

You missed my point regarding the Oblivion crisis. Humans also had a century to rebuild and per your assumptions replace casualties much faster. The AD should have lost considerable ground as a result, not suddenly been strong enough to defeat the Empire. "Rare intervals" is more specific than "at a lower rate." They may reproduce faster in times of crisis, which would explain their recovery better.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

I was talking about when Hitler first took Poland, if they had somehow driven him off, do you think he would have ignored them, or do you think he would want to finish them before he moved on to other countries? I don't see how I am making your point, I am saying that even though Hitler had goals beyond Poland, he still needed to conquer Poland, just like the AD will need to conquer Hammerfell instead of just moving around them. If they did just ignore Hammerfell, the Redguards would probably launch a surprise attack on the AD.

 

It never says they diverted the MAJORITY of their troops into Cyrodil, just that it was their main target. Why would you bring most of your troops into a front that is meeting little resistance, if you are fighting with another country that is giving you strong resistance? Lady Arannelya's army may not have received as many troops as it would have, since Cyrodil was the top priority, but it probably was about half of the AD's invasion force, if not more. Yes, the AD is facing the threat of Hammerfell and the Empire, but as long as Cyrodil remains in its current state(destroyed), and Skyrim is patrolled by the Thalmor, Hammerfell is the only real threat they have. Which is why Skyrim needs to be free so it can help fight back.

 

I don't see what your point is here. The AD wants to take over the world, I don't think Skyrim is any more important to them than Cyrodil or Hammerfell.

 

Nothing in the Real Barenziah backs up your theory, so I don't know where you are getting this stuff from. Yes, your theory may explain their recovery better, but they did have a century to recover anyway, and mine is backed up by in-game books while your has nothing backing it up.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

I was talking about when Hitler first took Poland, if they had somehow driven him off, do you think he would have ignored them, or do you think he would want to finish them before he moved on to other countries? I don't see how I am making your point, I am saying that even though Hitler had goals beyond Poland, he still needed to conquer Poland, just like the AD will need to conquer Hammerfell instead of just moving around them. If they did just ignore Hammerfell, the Redguards would probably launch a surprise attack on the AD.

 

It never says they diverted the MAJORITY of their troops into Cyrodil, just that it was their main target. Why would you bring most of your troops into a front that is meeting little resistance, if you are fighting with another country that is giving you strong resistance? Lady Arannelya's army may not have received as many troops as it would have, since Cyrodil was the top priority, but it probably was about half of the AD's invasion force, if not more. Yes, the AD is facing the threat of Hammerfell and the Empire, but as long as Cyrodil remains in its current state(destroyed), and Skyrim is patrolled by the Thalmor, Hammerfell is the only real threat they have. Which is why Skyrim needs to be free so it can help fight back.

 

I don't see what your point is here. The AD wants to take over the world, I don't think Skyrim is any more important to them than Cyrodil or Hammerfell.

 

Nothing in the Real Barenziah backs up your theory, so I don't know where you are getting this stuff from. Yes, your theory may explain their recovery better, but they did have a century to recover anyway, and mine is backed up by in-game books while your has nothing backing it up.

 

Quote from "The Great War" http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Great_War_(Book) :

 

'In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all.'

 

It seems to me that 'all available forces' strongly suggests the majority of their troop strength. And it was an Imperial general who had the initial successes in Hammerfell. When ordered back to Cyrodiil, he left some veterans behind to help lead, who, according to the book, were instrumental in the later Hammerfell successes.

 

You seem to be confusing 'weaker than they thought' with 'weak.' It is relatively easy to defeat a less organized and/or unready nation (the fall of France being a prime example), even if they have stronger forces on paper. This factor is shown with the initial successes in Hammerfell, and with the near capture of the Imperial City. However if said 'easy prey' has a chance to rally and organize it becomes a different story (example, Russia in WWII). The Empire was hit hard enough to effectively take them out of the fight and convince them to accept a peace treaty, but as you have pointed out numerous times, the AD took their share of casualties too. The Empire didn't go down easily, and in the end, only lost ground. They weren't completely and utterly defeated.

 

Even then by leaving behind veterans to carry on the fight in Hammerfell, an Imperial general set the seeds for Hammerfell's successes.

 

No clue how "The Real Barenziah" is relevant to any of this in any way. Why are you bringing that up?

 

Cyrodiil is rebuilding. If it was 'destroyed' there would be no troops available for civil wars in Skyrim. The Thalmor have a token force in Skyrim, small enough that the Dragonborn could take them out solo. Either an Imperial unit or a Stormcloak unit would have no trouble dealing with the token Thalmor forces in Skyrim. Getting them out is the easy part. The hard part is what comes next.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

All available forces means all forces not already in Hammerfell, so they still might have had an equal amount of troops in Hammerfell as they did in Cyrodil. General Decianus' legion was probably composed of mostly Reguard troops, and they probably were left behind because they did not want to abandon their homeland to the Thalmor and General Decianus was unwilling to force them to. Also, he was disobeying orders when he left the Redguards behind, so even though Imperial troops helped Hammerfell, the Emperor and Cyrodil did not.

 

The Empire was not completely and utterly defeated, but they accepted a treaty that allowed the Thalmor to kill anyone for simply worshiping Talos, gave half of Hammerfell to the Thalmor, the disbandment of the Blades, and heavy tributes to the AD that are probably keeping the Empire from recovering. They were not defeated, but they thought they were, or at least acted like it.

 

That general was acting against orders, and he probably couldn't have forced the Redguards in his legion to abandon Hammerfell even if he had tried.

 

Because The Real Barenziah never says anything about elves reproducing faster in "times of need".

 

Cyrodil is TRYING to rebuild, but it seems to be falling apart based on Cicero's journals. The Thalmor don't need an army to kill of Talos worshipers, the force they have works just fine. And actually, the Thalmor in Northwatch keep could probably keep back a force of Stormcloak soldiers for a while, especially since they have better bows and healing spells. Of course, a bunch of people with two-handed weapons charging through the gate would get through pretty quickly, but if the Thalmor had time to prepare they could put up a good fight.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

All available forces means all forces not already in Hammerfell, so they still might have had an equal amount of troops in Hammerfell as they did in Cyrodil. General Decianus' legion was probably composed of mostly Reguard troops, and they probably were left behind because they did not want to abandon their homeland to the Thalmor and General Decianus was unwilling to force them to. Also, he was disobeying orders when he left the Redguards behind, so even though Imperial troops helped Hammerfell, the Emperor and Cyrodil did not.

 

The Empire was not completely and utterly defeated, but they accepted a treaty that allowed the Thalmor to kill anyone for simply worshiping Talos, gave half of Hammerfell to the Thalmor, the disbandment of the Blades, and heavy tributes to the AD that are probably keeping the Empire from recovering. They were not defeated, but they thought they were, or at least acted like it.

 

That general was acting against orders, and he probably couldn't have forced the Redguards in his legion to abandon Hammerfell even if he had tried.

 

Because The Real Barenziah never says anything about elves reproducing faster in "times of need".

 

Cyrodil is TRYING to rebuild, but it seems to be falling apart based on Cicero's journals. The Thalmor don't need an army to kill of Talos worshipers, the force they have works just fine. And actually, the Thalmor in Northwatch keep could probably keep back a force of Stormcloak soldiers for a while, especially since they have better bows and healing spells. Of course, a bunch of people with two-handed weapons charging through the gate would get through pretty quickly, but if the Thalmor had time to prepare they could put up a good fight.

 

They were Imperial troops that the General left behind. He skirted his orders by saying they were invalids. And it was presented as primarily his decision, not theirs. He would have kept his entire force in Hammerfell if he had the choice. They were already pushing the AD back when he received the re-deployment orders.

 

And if he was able to re-deploy safely to reinforce/rescue Cyrodiil then the AD forces in Hammerfell were just as free and just as available to move. "All available" means to me "all available" including generals who don't want to redeploy. We may have to agree to disagree on this point since without confirmation either way it is strictly our respective interpretations of the wording. It is worth noting though that General Decianus's successes might have been due at least in part to AD redeployments to Cyrodiil.

 

The Real Barenziah doesn't say they don't reproduce that way either. Nor does the price of tea in China say anything either way on this subject. 'Rare periods' is left undefined and my interpretation is just as good as yours.

 

You keep coming back to Cicero as your source of the state of the Empire, even though he is one man, slowly going mad, on his way to Skyrim in hopes of finding 'mother' a new home. He wasn't touring Cyrodiil on some sort of inspection tour. Wayrest fell to Corsairs, and Bravil to a Skooma war, but Wayrest is in High Rock far from the Imperial City, and Bravil is very near the Valenwood and likely was hit particularly hard in the war.

 

It is unclear exactly what happened to Cheydinhal. Cicero claims it 'erupted in violence' but gives no cause or explanation, and was already clearly going mad by that point. He left the city for Skyrim safely and other than an incident with a broken cart wheel (which is resolved without incident unless the Dragonborn chooses against Cicero), despite travelling with the burden of a cart and a dead body. So how much exactly is the Empire in ruins rather than Cicero's mind?

[curtiswayne1]

in my opion i think the storm cloaks are like america seeking religious freedom from the empire(britain) and that supporting the empire would support the weakness that lost the great war and that the thalmor are dicks

http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/20.jpg

[curtiswayne1]

in my opion i think the storm cloaks are like america seeking religious freedom from the empire(britain) and that supporting the empire would support the weakness that lost the great war and that the thalmor are dicks

[kimmera]

in my opion i think the storm cloaks are like america seeking religious freedom from the empire(britain) and that supporting the empire would support the weakness that lost the great war and that the thalmor are dicks

 

The Americans were looking for tax freedom, though not so much religious freedom. They resented being taxed to pay for European wars. The Founding Fathers themselves believed strongly in separation of church and state.

 

And the Empire that signed the White Gold Concordat included Skyrim and Hammerfell at the time of the signing.