Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Yes, the Empire may have a few good men(General Decianus), but its leadership puts Cyrodil first at the expense of everything else.

 

The AD had two main armies under Lord Naarifin and Lady Arannelya, which attacked Cyrodil and Hammerfell respectively. While Cyrodil may have been the main objective, they were not as focused on taking it as the Empire was on protecting it. Maybe some troops were drawn from Hammerfell, but if the AD was really about to be defeated there they probably wouldn't have drawn troops from it, even if they didn't reinforce it. I think Cyrodil might have had more AD troops in it than Hammerfell, but that Lady Arannelya's army and Lord Naarifin's army were of comparable size.

 

But the Real Barenziah does say that elves can only have 3 children max, and usually only one or two, and that it is very rare for them to have children. It never gives any hint that they can have more children if they want to, or if there is a reason to. Yes, it is a possibility, but it is not referenced once by anything.

 

Well, he also says "like so many other cities before it", so those are not the only three cities that fell. Also, he can't be that insane, or he wouldn't have been able to make it all the way to Skyrim from Cyrodil. Having your cities being destroyed by pirates and drug lords isn't one of the signs of an Empire about to rebuild and declare war on the AD, so even if only those two cities fell(which is unlikely), the Empire is still in bad shape.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

Yes, the Empire may have a few good men(General Decianus), but its leadership puts Cyrodil first at the expense of everything else.

 

The AD had two main armies under Lord Naarifin and Lady Arannelya, which attacked Cyrodil and Hammerfell respectively. While Cyrodil may have been the main objective, they were not as focused on taking it as the Empire was on protecting it. Maybe some troops were drawn from Hammerfell, but if the AD was really about to be defeated there they probably wouldn't have drawn troops from it, even if they didn't reinforce it. I think Cyrodil might have had more AD troops in it than Hammerfell, but that Lady Arannelya's army and Lord Naarifin's army were of comparable size.

 

But the Real Barenziah does say that elves can only have 3 children max, and usually only one or two, and that it is very rare for them to have children. It never gives any hint that they can have more children if they want to, or if there is a reason to. Yes, it is a possibility, but it is not referenced once by anything.

 

Well, he also says "like so many other cities before it", so those are not the only three cities that fell. Also, he can't be that insane, or he wouldn't have been able to make it all the way to Skyrim from Cyrodil. Having your cities being destroyed by pirates and drug lords isn't one of the signs of an Empire about to rebuild and declare war on the AD, so even if only those two cities fell(which is unlikely), the Empire is still in bad shape.

 

If Cyrodill fell, what, precisely, do you think would happen with Hammerfell? Most nations tend to consider the capital important. You are seriously holding that against the Empire? Taking the Capital back quick might mean saving at least a couple of the Elder Scrolls, which equates to strategic importance.

 

In your assessment, you are assuming a lot. The AD thought they had won in Hammerfell and meanwhile the Empire seemed weaker than they thought. Why do you assume they didn't pull troops out of Hammerfell until after they started losing there? Isn't it more reasonable to assume that they pulled the troops out first, while they were doing well in Hammerfell?

 

In fact, according to 'The Great War' (which you never seem to actually reference), the AD didn't start losing in Hammerfell until after they had committed 'all available troops' to Cyrodiil, and isn't even mentioned until after the Imperial City has fallen. And in fact, just leaving a few advisors back was enough for Hammerfell to push back the AD remaining there. Why should the Empire have committed more to Hammerfell even if it meant losing Cyrodiil? It isn't that the Empire placed no value in other regions. It is you placing higher value on regions that needed fewer troops.

 

As for Elves and children, the only passage in "The Real Barenziah" that I can find that even remotely backs you up is this:

 

"Sire. It is her child. Children are few among the Elves. No Elven woman conceives more than four times, and that is very rare. Two is the usual number. Some bear none, even, and some only one. If I take this one from her, Sire, she may not conceive again."

"You promised us she would not bear to us. We've little faith in your prognostications."

.

 

And that is said by the High Elven healer who is attending Tiber Septim and Barenziah, with Tiber Septim's reply. First, the healer in question has incentive to lie, since he is trying to save at least one life (the unborn child) and quite possibly the life of the mother (Barenziah) as well. Second, the Emperor points out the healer's opinions are questionable. Have you a better quote? Or a better source? Oh, and it is 4 children max, assuming no twins, etc (which would mean potentially more than 4 children).

 

And the advantage to a writer to leaving things vague is plausible deniability later.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Real_Barenziah

 

Cicero's insanity taints his world view, not is ability to function within the world. How destroyed the cities 'really' are is uncertain. He never went to Wayrest or to Bravil. He just received refugees. Why would a drug war be targetting the assassin's guild anyway? More likely one side or the other would hire them. And yes, there is going to be more unrest with the Empire weakened after a war. There is a ruddy civil war in Skyrim, two civil wars (or one three-way civil war) if you include the Foresworn. There are plenty of ruins and not all of them are ancient.

 

Consider this. How much better do the guilds in Skyrim fare? The Dark Brotherhood in Skyrim has no listener and no speaker and is tiny and desperate for recruitment. They live or die at the whim of the Dragonborn. The Thieves' Guild similarly is mismanaged and falling apart, and only survives if the Dragonborn is willing to do something crazy like actually steal things. Meanwhile over in High Rock, some former Dragonborn is attempting to build his own 'empire' and on top of all of this, the Dragons are returning signalling an end to the world.

 

Yes, the Empire is in turmoil, but so is the entire world. Seems more like a time to rally together than to have even more infighting.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

I am not saying that the Empire should have sent all its legions to other places and left Cyrodil undefended, I am saying that they shouldn't have tried to completely abandon Hammerfell. the Great War says that General Decianus was preparing to drive the AD back from somewhere, so the Redguards were winning before the Battle of the Red Ring. The Emporer gave orders for all of the legions to return to Cyrodil, leaving nothing behind to protect Hamerfell from the AD. If General Decianus had obeyed orders, Hamerfell would probably have fallen, and the AD would have practically taken over the world.

 

Okay, elves can have quite a few children, but considering that they can live for a thousand years, they can't have that many, or they would have flooded the planet. A race that lives for a thousand years and has children at the same rate as a race that lives for about 50 would definentally outnumber them by a lot. Also, it is said that elves only have children very rarely by the elf in Riften that Barenziah meets, so they do reproduce slower than humans, which means that they would take longer to recover from a crisis.

 

The drug war was not targeted at the brotherhood, it simply destroyed a city, and as a side effect, destroyed the brotherhood sanctuary located in the city. And Cicero is not that crazy, he is just obsessed with the night mother. He can still tell if a city is destroyed or not. After all, if it is all in his imagination, then why did no one stop him when he took the night mother out of the sanctuary and all the way to Skyrim? Yes, there is a war in Skyrim, but no one is burning cities to the ground, or even looting them. Both sides want to keep Skyrim strong, so they wouldn't destroy cities, unlike the gangs in Cyrodil.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

I am not saying that the Empire should have sent all its legions to other places and left Cyrodil undefended, I am saying that they shouldn't have tried to completely abandon Hammerfell. the Great War says that General Decianus was preparing to drive the AD back from somewhere, so the Redguards were winning before the Battle of the Red Ring. The Emporer gave orders for all of the legions to return to Cyrodil, leaving nothing behind to protect Hamerfell from the AD. If General Decianus had obeyed orders, Hamerfell would probably have fallen, and the AD would have practically taken over the world.

 

Okay, elves can have quite a few children, but considering that they can live for a thousand years, they can't have that many, or they would have flooded the planet. A race that lives for a thousand years and has children at the same rate as a race that lives for about 50 would definentally outnumber them by a lot. Also, it is said that elves only have children very rarely by the elf in Riften that Barenziah meets, so they do reproduce slower than humans, which means that they would take longer to recover from a crisis.

 

The drug war was not targeted at the brotherhood, it simply destroyed a city, and as a side effect, destroyed the brotherhood sanctuary located in the city. And Cicero is not that crazy, he is just obsessed with the night mother. He can still tell if a city is destroyed or not. After all, if it is all in his imagination, then why did no one stop him when he took the night mother out of the sanctuary and all the way to Skyrim? Yes, there is a war in Skyrim, but no one is burning cities to the ground, or even looting them. Both sides want to keep Skyrim strong, so they wouldn't destroy cities, unlike the gangs in Cyrodil.

 

You try giving perfect orders while your capital city and your home is being overrrun, particularly in an environment where you don't have modern communications. Was the decision to withdraw 100% of the troops in Hammerfell wise? Only a handful were left behind by way of Decanius' decision, and that was enough. He still withdrew 99.9%.

 

Again, 'have chidren rarely' could mean anything. They could have children more often in times of great stress, times of great stress being rare events. That is often true of humans and some other species. In developed countries in modern reality, it is quite common for women to have less than two children, many having none at all. That doesn't mean humans are incapable of faster reproduction, just that in developed nations, people have many more alternative forms of fulfillment other than reproduction.

 

And although Elves can live to a thousand years or longer, we are also told most do not, succumbing to disease, or being killed in some manner. Within the context of the world, these are real individuals, and not mindless species trying to overrun the world. We know from The Real Barenziah that Elves *can* reproduce even when young (contrary to the healer's assurances to the Emperor) and that they can have up to 4 children. That sounds like a species quite capable of being competitive with humans on reproduction if they really actively desired to be. And since the borders haven't changed in the last couple hundred years despite the Red Year and the Oblivion Crisis, how much can of an advantage can humans really have?

[ExoticPharmacist]

Ulfric can burn in hell. Burn in Oblivion. Oblivion Hell? Y'all get the idea.

Just listening to Ulfric's dialogues gives me headaches. He sounds like a child who isn't getting what he wants.

 

I took about an hour writing this because I want to explain my thoughts, but I suck at doing that, so this is all I got. : /

[MidbossVyers]

You should at least admire his spirit and conviction. At the very least, he doesn't seem the sort to lose his balls at the last minute, like, say, Koei's portrayal of Mitsuhide Akechi:

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

I have not been trained to command the entire Imperial army, nor do I have any advisors or generals helping me, so I can still blame TMII and the Empire in general for abandoning Hammerfell to the AD. TMII did not need every single legion available to retake the Imperial City, but because he didn't care about Hammerfell he ordered all of his troops there to come reinforce him. He does not need modern communications to tell General Decianus to only withdraw half of his troops, or to realize that with most of Hammerfell's army gone, they will not be able to defeat the AD. Also, General Decianus left "a great number" of his men behind. This sounds like a lot of people, but it is not specific enough to tell for sure.

 

Katisha told Barenziah that elves don't have children readily with other elves, so elves that are members of the AD will not have children as frequently as Barenziah. This has nothing to do with weather or not they want to, it is just to counter their long lifespan. Nowhere is it ever suggested that they can choose to have more children "in times of need", except for your posts. The woman in Riften tells Barenziah that "elves do not have children readily with elves"(or something like that), so I don't see how you can say that they have children as often as humans. Also, borders have shifted a lot since the Oblivion Crisis. the AD now rules Valenwood, Elswyr, and Summerset. Black Marsh, Morrowind and Hammerfell are now independent, and the Empire only rules Cyrodil, High Rock, and Skryim. But what does that have to do with anything?

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

I have not been trained to command the entire Imperial army, nor do I have any advisors or generals helping me, so I can still blame TMII and the Empire in general for abandoning Hammerfell to the AD. TMII did not need every single legion available to retake the Imperial City, but because he didn't care about Hammerfell he ordered all of his troops there to come reinforce him. He does not need modern communications to tell General Decianus to only withdraw half of his troops, or to realize that with most of Hammerfell's army gone, they will not be able to defeat the AD. Also, General Decianus left "a great number" of his men behind. This sounds like a lot of people, but it is not specific enough to tell for sure.

 

Katisha told Barenziah that elves don't have children readily with other elves, so elves that are members of the AD will not have children as frequently as Barenziah. This has nothing to do with weather or not they want to, it is just to counter their long lifespan. Nowhere is it ever suggested that they can choose to have more children "in times of need", except for your posts. The woman in Riften tells Barenziah that "elves do not have children readily with elves"(or something like that), so I don't see how you can say that they have children as often as humans. Also, borders have shifted a lot since the Oblivion Crisis. the AD now rules Valenwood, Elswyr, and Summerset. Black Marsh, Morrowind and Hammerfell are now independent, and the Empire only rules Cyrodil, High Rock, and Skryim. But what does that have to do with anything?

 

Pardon? Which legions that responded did not take part in the recapture? The AD sent 'All available troops' to Hammerfell. Why do you assume, blindly it seems, that it was unreasonable for the Empire to respond with 'all available troops' in defense?

 

You need to make up your mind. On the one hand you are claiming that the Empire are so strong that they need only a fraction of their troops to defend against the AD and on the other hand you are claiming that the Empire are so weak they can't even keep their own house in order. You cite chaos in Cyrodiil, while championing the fact that Hammerfell kicked the AD out while claiming that Hammerfell needed the troops more. The evidence contradicts you. You, yourself have been arguing that the Empire is weak and does not deserve support, yet simultaeously argue they are strong enough that they didn't need the extra troops?

 

Edit: You are also assuming that the Empire somehow knew exactly how many troops they would need. Reality doesn't work that way. You don't have perfect information, not even about your own troops let alone enemy troop strengths, especially since the Thalmor seem to be far superior at espionage to the Blades (likely due to the Hero of Kvatch running off to become Sheogorath.... )

Edited June 6, 2015 by kimmera

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

It was unreasonable for the Empire to send all available troops to defend the Imperial City because, if they actually had taken the entire legion from Hammerfell, then Hammerfell would have fallen to the AD. TMII must have at least had some idea that Hammerfell could not resist the AD with most of its troops in Cyrodil, but he ordered them to come help him retake the Imperial City anyway. He was essentially sacrificing Hammerfell for Cyrodil. If that is how the Empire treats its territories, then why would anyone want to be part of the Empire?

 

How am I contradicting myself? I have never said the strength of the Empire's legions was lacking, I have always said that they could have held off the AD if they hadn't accepted the WGC. However, most of the information from Cyrodil shows that it is falling apart, Valga Vinicia says "I escaped fighting in Cyrodiil only to have it track me down again in Skyrim." Combined with Cicero's journal, it seems that Cyrodil has fallen into chaos, weather it is from Thalmor spies, debt, too much focus on keeping the legions strong, or something else, I think within a few years Cyrodil will fall into anarchy, and the AD will walk in without any resistance.

 

TMII would have seen how large the AD's army was when they took the Imperial City, and even if he didn't, he still shouldn't have ordered all the troops from Hammerfell to withdraw to help him. Why would Skryim want to be part of an empire that is focused only on the interests of Cyrodil?

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

It was unreasonable for the Empire to send all available troops to defend the Imperial City because, if they actually had taken the entire legion from Hammerfell, then Hammerfell would have fallen to the AD. TMII must have at least had some idea that Hammerfell could not resist the AD with most of its troops in Cyrodil, but he ordered them to come help him retake the Imperial City anyway. He was essentially sacrificing Hammerfell for Cyrodil. If that is how the Empire treats its territories, then why would anyone want to be part of the Empire?

 

How am I contradicting myself? I have never said the strength of the Empire's legions was lacking, I have always said that they could have held off the AD if they hadn't accepted the WGC. However, most of the information from Cyrodil shows that it is falling apart, Valga Vinicia says "I escaped fighting in Cyrodiil only to have it track me down again in Skyrim." Combined with Cicero's journal, it seems that Cyrodil has fallen into chaos, weather it is from Thalmor spies, debt, too much focus on keeping the legions strong, or something else, I think within a few years Cyrodil will fall into anarchy, and the AD will walk in without any resistance.

 

TMII would have seen how large the AD's army was when they took the Imperial City, and even if he didn't, he still shouldn't have ordered all the troops from Hammerfell to withdraw to help him. Why would Skryim want to be part of an empire that is focused only on the interests of Cyrodil?

 

 

Again, you are ignoring what we are told in "The Great War." Only a handful of men were left behind in Hammerfell. 99.9% did respond to Cyrodiil. You keep talking as if it was the reverse as if General Decianus returned with only a handful and left the majority of his troops in Hammerfell.

 

If he had fewer troops to work with, the capital may not have been re taken at all. At the very least it would have been a lot harder to retake. You make no sense... you want fewer troops in Cyrodiil, claim they could have been a lot more with the troops they had their without withdrawing anyone, yet offer no actual evidence other than pointing out how bad Cyrodiil is after the treaty, despite that being after the additional troops you object to had been brought back to Cyrodiil.

 

As for Valga, she says nothing about when she left. And she could very well have come from Bravil, and was simply mentioning the exact same events Cicero reported on.

 

TMII would have gotten a sense of the AD army when they invaded, but he wouldn't have clear information on subsequent reinforcements, or available AD reinforcements, and regardless no sane commander relies only on the minimum possible troops (commando raids notwithstanding). Again, Hammerfell was able to continue pushing the AD back, out and to sign a treaty of their own with just the handful of leaders Decanius left behind there.

 

Skyrim would want to be part of the Empire because of strategic interests (any Elder Scrolls that survived the sacking of the White Gold Tower), the strategic location of the Empire (in the center of the continent, which facilitates both trade and central leadership, and that for the most part, the Empire has allowed local customs to continue. The White Gold Concordant has been a rare exception.

 

Why do you seem to feel the treaty hits Skyrim any harder than the Empire? You think there are no Talos worshipers in Cyrodiil? You seem to want an Empire in which the outlying provinces are not at risk at all, and seem to think that if they are not part of the Empire, they are completely safe, yet Skyrim has to deal with the potential end of the entire world and with a former Dragonborn threatening to take over all of Nirn, not to mention two separate rebellions. Just how successfully is Ulfric running the show? And is he really even running it? We know from The Foresworn Conspiracy that the Thalmor have been pulling Ulfric's strings for a while, as well as those of the Foresworn.