Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[roadbum]

I pretty much felt the same way you did about the civil war, however I played one character fighting in the war on the Stormcloak side as the only quest played, Another came to her senses after becoming the Dragonborn and again fighting for good old Ulfric. I must point out at this point, both characters are Nords fighting for the Stormcloaks is the ONLY logical option if you're a Nord, just as fighting for the Imperial's is normal if your a member of one of the animal races or any sort of elf.

 

There is another quest that doesn't tie in well (though it should) to the rebellion, and that is these Forsworn people. Apparently they not only hate the Imperials but the Nords as well, claiming Skyrim for their own. Bethesda made a big mistake by not tying them into the struggle in a more positive way.

 

Being an adult, I look at this game in an entirely different light, finding that much of it doesn't make a lot of sense, there is so much I would change it wouldn't be funny, but this is just one man's opinion.

[kimmera]

I pretty much felt the same way you did about the civil war, however I played one character fighting in the war on the Stormcloak side as the only quest played, Another came to her senses after becoming the Dragonborn and again fighting for good old Ulfric. I must point out at this point, both characters are Nords fighting for the Stormcloaks is the ONLY logical option if you're a Nord, just as fighting for the Imperial's is normal if your a member of one of the animal races or any sort of elf.

 

There is another quest that doesn't tie in well (though it should) to the rebellion, and that is these Forsworn people. Apparently they not only hate the Imperials but the Nords as well, claiming Skyrim for their own. Bethesda made a big mistake by not tying them into the struggle in a more positive way.

 

Being an adult, I look at this game in an entirely different light, finding that much of it doesn't make a lot of sense, there is so much I would change it wouldn't be funny, but this is just one man's opinion.

 

While it is easier to consider yourself a Stormcloak as a Nord, there are plenty of pro-Empire Nords too.

 

As for the Foresworn, that area of Nirn is the Rift, and has alternated between being part of Skyrim or independent. The Foresworn are fighting their own war of independence with Skyrim, just as Ulfric is fighting his with the Empire. The Stormcloaks are rather hypocritical on this. The Foresworn would still be rebelling even if there was no Empire.

[MidbossVyers]

I pretty much felt the same way you did about the civil war, however I played one character fighting in the war on the Stormcloak side as the only quest played, Another came to her senses after becoming the Dragonborn and again fighting for good old Ulfric. I must point out at this point, both characters are Nords fighting for the Stormcloaks is the ONLY logical option if you're a Nord, just as fighting for the Imperial's is normal if your a member of one of the animal races or any sort of elf.

 

There is another quest that doesn't tie in well (though it should) to the rebellion, and that is these Forsworn people. Apparently they not only hate the Imperials but the Nords as well, claiming Skyrim for their own. Bethesda made a big mistake by not tying them into the struggle in a more positive way.

 

Being an adult, I look at this game in an entirely different light, finding that much of it doesn't make a lot of sense, there is so much I would change it wouldn't be funny, but this is just one man's opinion.

My Khajiit and Orc are Stormcloaks.

Edited June 10, 2015 by MidbossVyers

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

The Great War says, word for word, that "he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions". This is not specific enough to tell us what percent were left, but it sounds like it was a lot more than just 1%.

 

I am saying that I think General Decianus left behind a substantial amount of men, like I said above, and that without those men, Hammerfell would have fallen, or at least have had an even harder time pushing back the AD. Howerver, General Decianus disobeyed direct orders and left men behind, so both Cyrodil and Hammerfell could survive.

 

Yes, but at the very least she proves that Cicero wasn't hallucinating cities being destroyed.

 

Skyrim already has three elder scrolls and a moth priest (unless you are a vampire), so that point is moot. Also, elder scrolls haven't seemed to help anyone but the dragonborn, after all, teh AD still was able to supries attack the Empire.

 

Since people in Cyrodil are writing books like the Talos Mistake, and generally haven't revered Talos as much as the nords do, I think that Skyrim would be hit harder. I never said the provinces should be completely safe, just that they shouldn't be abandoned. The end of the world(if you are talking about Alduin) has nothing to do with any countries, so that is pointless. The Forsworn rebellion is very small, and pretty much wouldn't exist if it weren't for Igmund. It is hardly a threat to anyone, except for when the Reach is left undefended. Uflric isn't king yet, also, so how it the Forsworn rebellion his fault? The Thalmor got Ulfric to free Markarth from the Forsworn, that is about it. Who is this former Dragonborn trying to take over the world? I have not found anything about this anywhere.

 

How is Ulfric hypocritical by putting down the Forsworn rebellion? Remember, the Forsworn do sacrifice innocent people to daedra. That enough is a reason to not let them own a country.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

The Great War says, word for word, that "he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions". This is not specific enough to tell us what percent were left, but it sounds like it was a lot more than just 1%.

 

I am saying that I think General Decianus left behind a substantial amount of men, like I said above, and that without those men, Hammerfell would have fallen, or at least have had an even harder time pushing back the AD. Howerver, General Decianus disobeyed direct orders and left men behind, so both Cyrodil and Hammerfell could survive.

 

Yes, but at the very least she proves that Cicero wasn't hallucinating cities being destroyed.

 

Skyrim already has three elder scrolls and a moth priest (unless you are a vampire), so that point is moot. Also, elder scrolls haven't seemed to help anyone but the dragonborn, after all, teh AD still was able to supries attack the Empire.

 

Since people in Cyrodil are writing books like the Talos Mistake, and generally haven't revered Talos as much as the nords do, I think that Skyrim would be hit harder. I never said the provinces should be completely safe, just that they shouldn't be abandoned. The end of the world(if you are talking about Alduin) has nothing to do with any countries, so that is pointless. The Forsworn rebellion is very small, and pretty much wouldn't exist if it weren't for Igmund. It is hardly a threat to anyone, except for when the Reach is left undefended. Uflric isn't king yet, also, so how it the Forsworn rebellion his fault? The Thalmor got Ulfric to free Markarth from the Forsworn, that is about it. Who is this former Dragonborn trying to take over the world? I have not found anything about this anywhere.

 

How is Ulfric hypocritical by putting down the Forsworn rebellion? Remember, the Forsworn do sacrifice innocent people to daedra. That enough is a reason to not let them own a country.

 

 

I stand corrected on the numbers left behind, however the forces left behind were enough to not only push the AD back but to inflict 'great losses' on them. He may have left more than was absolutely needed, without being certain of the situation in Cyrodiil at the time. Losses in Cyrodiil, including those of those he did bring with him were that much higher as a result.

 

Quote "The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring." meaning they didn't have more troops in Cyrodiil than they needed, particularly since the book describes the tactics used as a model for Imperial strategists to follow (rather than one to avoid), yet still took heavy losses. It seems unlikely that the 'invalids' suddenly returned to Cyrodiil after Hammerfell declared independence... that would have led to too many questions about the miraculous recovery of so many, so the resulting troubles in Cyrodiil also can likely in part be pinned on the loss of so many troops re-taking the Imperial CIty.

 

She just says 'she fled fighting in Cyrodiil' not 'everywhere in Cyrodiil was suffering.' She doesn't even mention when that was.

 

"Skyrim already has three Elder Scrolls...." seriously? You realize of course that just three was enough to plunge the world into eternal darkness and thus hand it over to vampires? I don't think you realize the strategic importance of each and every scroll.

 

People in real life write books promoting atheism and opposing <insert anyone else's religion here>. That does not mean that Christianity isn't a major religion any more than there being Christians in Israel or Saudi Arabia means that Judaism and Islam are weak in those countries respectively.

 

The results of the end of the world has nothing to do with countries, but I don't recall Elsweyr, or Morrowwind or Hammerfell or the AD or any other region being part of the solution. In fact an end to the civil war one way or another is required for saving the world from this particular threat.

 

The Forwsworn rebellion is 'pretty small?' Foresworn are a lot tougher than any normal thugs. The Empire and Stormcloaks have 8 camps each. The Foresworn have 10. You don't just want Ulfric to suicidally challenge the AD, you also want Igmund to suicidally attack the Foresworn.

 

The Forsworn rebellion is not strictly Ulfric's fault but Ulfric considers the Reach part of Skyrim, has shown no sympathy for the Forsworn, and it is unlikely he would consider seeking any diplomatic solution. It is unlikely he even considers the Reach men 'true Nords.' The Forsworn might sacrifice people to Daedra (although they might be failed conversion attempts... according to the lore, they voluntarily sacrifice their own hearts, literally, to the Hagravens in exchange for power.

 

Most of what the Forsworn do is because they want independence for the Reach, just as Ulfric wants independence for Skyrim. Ulfric is hypocritical in that he wants the latter but does not believe the Reach deserves independence. Yes the Forsworn are willing to kill to achieve their ends but Ulfric was just as willing to kill the High King (duel or not) and to sacrifice lives by way of civil war.

 

The former Dragonborn trying to take over the world? You don't have the Dragonborn expansion, I take it?

[MidbossVyers]

@Kimmera: Thing is, killing soldiers in battle or kings in a duel is technically on a different scale than raiding civilians to sacrifice.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera: Thing is, killing soldiers in battle or kings in a duel is technically on a different scale than raiding civilians to sacrifice.

 

First, it is not clear that they have raided any civilians. They voluntarily sacrifice themselves, per the lore.

 

Second, there has been no war in history with zero civilian casualties. If "The Markarth Incident" is to be believed, there was significant slaughtering of civilians at Markarth on the part of the Stormcloaks. This is not condoning any sacrificing of innocents that the Forsworn do. To the contrary, it is saying that it is hypocritical to say 'they are bad because they kill people' when you are going to war and killing people.

 

And contrary to the rhetoric, just because soldiers are willing to die for their respective factions does not mean they are no longer people. Killing is killing. It isn't justified simply because the targets are able to fight back. Both the Stormcloaks and Forsworn feel 'their' territory has been taken from them and their ways violated. There is nothing I know of in the lore saying that the Stormcloaks or the Empire hang on to the Reach to save the world from human sacrifice. There is plenty to say they do so because they believe it is 'theirs.'

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

They didn't have more men in Cyrodil than they needed because they had already left a great number of men behind in Hammerfell.

 

The Great War is a history book, if it were intended to be used as a guide for tactics he probably wouldn't have published it for everyone to read. And of course the "invalids" didn't return to Cyrodil. They stayed in Hammerfell to fight off the AD.

 

Yes, but if we have two separate and unbiased sources saying that there is fighting in Cyrodil, then there probably is. And at least in Skyrim, whoever wins the war will try to rebuild. The bandits in Cyrodil will not.

 

If Skyrim already has three Elder Scrolls, why do they need more? And it isn't like the Elder Scrolls helped last time, so they probably won't help next time either.

 

Some Imperials might still believe in Talos, but since his worship has been outlawed by the AD, most people probably think he is just Tiber Septim.

 

You don't need to end the war to save the world, you can just do the Season Unending quest and then the Jarl of Whiterun will let you trap Odaviing.

 

The strength and number of the Forsworn is likely just a game mechanic, because Ulfric defeated the Forsworn with his militia, which was probably relatively small since he wasn't a Jarl at the time. Also, the Forsworn had to wait until Markarth was undefended to attack it. In the game the Forsworn could probably just walk into Markarth and kill everyone, but they don't, because they are not really that powerful.

 

Both the Empire and the Stormcloaks don't like the Forsworn. The only reason the Empire didn't wipe them out before Ulfric did is because they lacked the manpower. Ulfric has many reasons to rebell, while the only reason the Forsworn present is that the land is "theirs", when it hadn't been their land for a thousand years. "They differentiate from common bandits in that they will often waylay an entire caravan or settlement leaving no survivors, but taking little loot. They've refused all attempts at making peace and will accept only the return of their land as a solution to the conflict." Also, Ulfric challenged the High King to a duel. Toryyg accepted. If Torryg wanted to, he could have just refused, and Ulfric wouldn't have just stabbed him in the back. There is a difference between murder and a duel.

 

Doesn't Miraak die, leaving him unable to take over the world?

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

They didn't have more men in Cyrodil than they needed because they had already left a great number of men behind in Hammerfell.

 

The Great War is a history book, if it were intended to be used as a guide for tactics he probably wouldn't have published it for everyone to read. And of course the "invalids" didn't return to Cyrodil. They stayed in Hammerfell to fight off the AD.

 

Yes, but if we have two separate and unbiased sources saying that there is fighting in Cyrodil, then there probably is. And at least in Skyrim, whoever wins the war will try to rebuild. The bandits in Cyrodil will not.

 

If Skyrim already has three Elder Scrolls, why do they need more? And it isn't like the Elder Scrolls helped last time, so they probably won't help next time either.

 

Some Imperials might still believe in Talos, but since his worship has been outlawed by the AD, most people probably think he is just Tiber Septim.

 

You don't need to end the war to save the world, you can just do the Season Unending quest and then the Jarl of Whiterun will let you trap Odaviing.

 

The strength and number of the Forsworn is likely just a game mechanic, because Ulfric defeated the Forsworn with his militia, which was probably relatively small since he wasn't a Jarl at the time. Also, the Forsworn had to wait until Markarth was undefended to attack it. In the game the Forsworn could probably just walk into Markarth and kill everyone, but they don't, because they are not really that powerful.

 

Both the Empire and the Stormcloaks don't like the Forsworn. The only reason the Empire didn't wipe them out before Ulfric did is because they lacked the manpower. Ulfric has many reasons to rebell, while the only reason the Forsworn present is that the land is "theirs", when it hadn't been their land for a thousand years. "They differentiate from common bandits in that they will often waylay an entire caravan or settlement leaving no survivors, but taking little loot. They've refused all attempts at making peace and will accept only the return of their land as a solution to the conflict." Also, Ulfric challenged the High King to a duel. Toryyg accepted. If Torryg wanted to, he could have just refused, and Ulfric wouldn't have just stabbed him in the back. There is a difference between murder and a duel.

 

Doesn't Miraak die, leaving him unable to take over the world?

 

My point was that they could have used those extra men in Cyrodiil. They would have taken fewer losses and Cyrodiil might not have ended up in quite the mess you paint it as being in. You earlier were trying to say that they didn't need them in Cyrodiil and were overreacting in ordering them back.

 

The Great War is a history book that states that they used good tactics in the battle to retake Imperial City, tactics worth learning from later. It didn't describe the details. It didn't need to. The point is that the losses taken were not due to bad leadership. According to the account, they did exceptionally well with the troops they had, yet still took heavy losses. Again this indicates that they were not unreasonable in wanting all troops back in Cyrodiil.

 

I never disputed that there was fighting in Cyrodiil. There was fighting in Cyrodiil during the Oblivion Crisis too. There is fighting all over Skyrim and is still fighting in Skyrim even with a truce between the Empire and Stormcloaks. There is fighting in Daggerfall there is likely fighting all over Nirn. The question is the degree and nature of the fighting. This is why I discount her saying they fled fighting in Cyrodiil. It is a dangerous world and there aren't infinite troop numbers for patrols.

 

Saying 'it is just a game mechanic' is breaking the 4th wall. Everything is a game mechanic. If we treat that argument as valid, the choice of Stormcloaks vs Empire does not matter because it really doesn't. It won't affect the next game because the next game will have a history based on whatever Bethesda decides officially happened. The number of camps is what it is. It isn't random or a 'game mechanic' it is part of the writing. And the Stormcloaks were not just 'militia.' They were a regular military unit that had fought together in the Great War.

 

The Forsworn do not just 'walk in to Markarth and kill everyone' because (1) their leader is in jail and they have no other central command to coordinate them and (2) because they tried that once already with a strong leader and got chased back out to the hills. This is different from out in the wild where they know the terrain better than the Stormcloaks or Empire. Even so when they do attack the city at the end of The Forsworn Conspiracy, a mere handful inflict heavy casualties on the Markarth guards. If you want to argue game mechanic, the game seems to assume that Markarth can just spawn guards out of nowhere. Nevertheless, the very few who escape, despite having been in prison for an extended time under poor to horrible conditions do very well. If the Forsworn had the right leader and were treated with appropriate respect, they could be a huge boon, but 'Oh noes! They aren't real Nords! They don't deserve the Reach!' ....

 

Neither Ulfric nor the Empire like rebels. They insist they have to be in charge. The Reach men see their territory as being occupied and feel they haven't gotten the same respect Ulfric is demanding for himself. Every argument Ulfric uses for his rebellion backs the Forsworn in theirs. And if you check the history, the Reach was independent more of its history than you seem to give it credit for being.

 

Torryg could not refuse a duel under Skyrim law. That was part of Ulfric's defense. Unfortunately for Ulfric, being the winner of such a duel does not automatically make you the new high king.

 

Miraak only dies if the Dragonborn stops him, just as neither the Stormcloaks nor Empire win unless the Dragonborn intervenes. Until he is stopped, he is still trying to take over the world.

 

And as for the Elder Scrolls, you really don't understand them I think. The Elder Scrolls are fundamental instruction manuals to all of reality. Having them means being able to manipulate those aspects of reality on a fundamental basis, to say, undo the Sun so that the world is eternally dark, or to pull a dragon back into normal time where he can be permanently killed. These are not trivial items. Each and every one is of strategic importance. The AD want to undo the creation of mankind. Which scrolls would help them in that is unknown, but the more they have the better the chance they have the right ones.

[MidbossVyers]

No, Torygg could have refused the duel, but then Ulfric would have had the right to call the Moot to reselect the High King.