Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[MidbossVyers]

Well, Shouting the gates down might mean just forcefully opening the gate, like with using a strong battering ram, rather than demolishing the structure, itself. Also, to break the fourth wall a little bit, I'm guessing that Unrelenting Force originally became a thing because the Force Push Oblivion mod was so popular, and that only pushes things, not destroy them. Also, Unrelenting Force can only tear someone to pieces, if augmented by a Black Book's Dragonborn Force: http://uesp.net/wiki/Dragonborn:Dragonborn_Force#Dragonborn_Force

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Where is your proof that Torryg could not have refused the challenge? In real life almost all challenges could be refused, although refusing the challenge was not honorable, it was always allowed. Are you completely sure Elisif would not get her facts wrong because she is so sad and angry, not to mention inexperienced?

 

Relativelybest pretty much covered your second point. If she had said that Ulfric shouted him to pieces, than I would agree with you, but she doesn't.

 

Ulfric knew he was going to shout and would not have been surprised. Everyone else would have been startled when he shouted Torryg across the room, likely causing them to exaggerate. And Torryg could just be mad at Ulfric for killing him.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

Where is your proof that Torryg could not have refused the challenge? In real life almost all challenges could be refused, although refusing the challenge was not honorable, it was always allowed. Are you completely sure Elisif would not get her facts wrong because she is so sad and angry, not to mention inexperienced?

 

Relativelybest pretty much covered your second point. If she had said that Ulfric shouted him to pieces, than I would agree with you, but she doesn't.

 

Ulfric knew he was going to shout and would not have been surprised. Everyone else would have been startled when he shouted Torryg across the room, likely causing them to exaggerate. And Torryg could just be mad at Ulfric for killing him.

 

When it is part of a succession mechanism, it can't always be refused. In most such systems, refusing is treated as conceding, otherwise there would be no point to being able to challenge at all. If challenging forces a moot for re-election, you wouldn't need to challenge to a duel. It would be simpler and safer for all to be able to call a moot and a re-election, with the moot having the option of offering a duel.

 

I gave Sybille's quote verbatim. She said that the terrible shout tore him to pieces. This is the full quote.. it is the same dialogue as she says that a moot would have been called if Torygg refused: ""By Nord custom, once the challenge was issued in court, Torygg had no choice but to accept. Had he not, Ulfric would have had cause to call a new moot and a new vote for High King. Torygg had some martial training, of course, but it mattered little that day. When Ulfric's lips parted, when he unleashed the power of the Thu'um... That Shout, that ancient and terrible tongue... ripped Torygg asunder.""

 

Even though she says it would have resulted in a moot if Torygg refused, she strongly implies that would have meant Torygg's dismissal rather than him simply being reaffirmed. So even to the extent that her words back your position, they also counter it, since she too thought Torygg had 'no choice but to accept.'

 

Torygg wasn't really the lying type and the conversation only comes up in Sovngarde, where he has no incentive to lie. Even Ulfric if dead and met there is repentant there.

 

Elisif is inexperienced at holding the position and making the decisions necessary to govern, but she was Torygg's wife. She also asks that Torygg's horn be delivered to a shrine of Talos, so she is neither completely obedient to the Empire nor is she ignorant of Skyrim custom.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Refusing is not considered conceding, although it does give the challenger ground to call for a moot to replace the current HIgh King. But a moot is only called if the HIgh King dies, or if the High King is disliked by enough Jarls. Refusing Ulfric's challenge would give him leverage to say that Torygg is a weak king, and needs to be replaced.

 

She says that "Ulfric would have had cause to call a new moot and a new vote for HIgh KIng". She never says that Torygg couldn't have tried to win this vote, just that a vote for a new High King would happen. She might have thought that most of the Jarls would support Ulfric, which might have been the case since we don't know when Dengier stopped being Jarl of Falkreath.

 

How do you know that Torygg wasn't really the lying type? Also, he might not be lying, just mad at Ulfric. After all, if someone killed you you would probably be mad at him. Also, Ulfric isn't sorry for rebelling, he is sorry that his rebellion happened at the same time as Alduin's return.

 

She knew that Torygg worshiped Talos, and wanted his horn to be placed at a shrine of Talos. That is not the same thing as knowing all of the rules about challenges and dueling.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Elimc

[MidbossVyers]

Let me say that Alduin's mist makes everyone emo, so Ulfric saying sorry for anything might just be him high on dragon gas.

[kimmera]

Let me say that Alduin's mist makes everyone emo, so Ulfric saying sorry for anything might just be him high on dragon gas.

 

Torygg's lines are after Alduin is defeated. Before that he is as you say 'omg, we are all doomed.'

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

Refusing is not considered conceding, although it does give the challenger ground to call for a moot to replace the current HIgh King. But a moot is only called if the HIgh King dies, or if the High King is disliked by enough Jarls. Refusing Ulfric's challenge would give him leverage to say that Torygg is a weak king, and needs to be replaced.

 

She says that "Ulfric would have had cause to call a new moot and a new vote for HIgh KIng". She never says that Torygg couldn't have tried to win this vote, just that a vote for a new High King would happen. She might have thought that most of the Jarls would support Ulfric, which might have been the case since we don't know when Dengier stopped being Jarl of Falkreath.

 

How do you know that Torygg wasn't really the lying type? Also, he might not be lying, just mad at Ulfric. After all, if someone killed you you would probably be mad at him. Also, Ulfric isn't sorry for rebelling, he is sorry that his rebellion happened at the same time as Alduin's return.

 

She knew that Torygg worshiped Talos, and wanted his horn to be placed at a shrine of Talos. That is not the same thing as knowing all of the rules about challenges and dueling.

 

All the evidence in game points to refusing equaling conceding. Ulfric tried to make a play for the position of High King before at the moot but the Jarls chose Torygg instead. Why would even Sybille say 'he had no choice' unless on refusing the moot wouldn't simply reaffirm him?

 

Sovngarde is the afterlife, and no one there really seems to talk about revenge. It is more like Valhalla than merely being dead. And not even Ulfric portrays Torygg as dishonest.

 

Torygg's wishes or not, placing the horn at a shrine of Talos is Talos worship and against Imperial Law and against the White Gold Concordat. If Elisif is willing to engage in such an activity, even if as you suggest it was her late husband's wishes and not her faith (although there is no evidence it isn't her faith), she is still willing to ignore Imperial Law in favour of tradition. She just understands that given the situation she cannot do so openly.

 

In fact, if she does not believe in Talos, or opposes Talos worship on a personal level then her willingness to arrange that act is even more in her favour, since then she is willing to go against her own personal beliefs in favour of tradition.

 

This also backs my earlier suggestion that if there hadn't been a hissy fit thrown at Markarth that the Thalmor likely would not be up in arms and worship likely could have carried on as before, just quietly. Even with the Thalmor around the temple of Talos in Markarth still exists..... and that is one of the few cities that have an active Thalmor presence.

 

Elisif is a high born Nord, wife of a Jarl and now a Jarl in his place, and you are arguing she doesn't understand Nord traditions? You figure no one ever bothered to explain them to her even after her husband was killed or after she became Jarl in a time where a moot could be called at any time due to her husband's death?

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

The moot that elected Torygg was ceremonial, not an actual vote. The only time it is actually a vote is if the High King dies without a son. Maybe she said that he had no choice because she thought that the moot would vote for Ulfric.

 

Still, should we really take Torygg's word for Ulfric being dishonorable? And no one comments on Torygg's honesty, or lack of it, ever.

 

Yes, she may worship Talos, she will ignore Imperial law to honor her dead husband, and she knows not to tell anyone about it. That doesn't mean that she knows the laws about challenges, and since one probably hasn't happened in over a hundred years, they were probably not considered extremely important.

 

I personally think she does worship Talos, but we don't know, and I don't see how that is relevant.

 

The temple still exist, but no one uses it as a temple. In fact, no one goes there ever, so Eltrys uses it as a secret meeting place. Ulfric freed the Reach from the Forsworn on the condition that Talos worship would be allowed. Then the Empire rescinded on its agreement, arrested Ulfric, and allowed the Thalmor to kill anyone in Skyirm found worshiping Talos.

 

They probably didn't spend time telling her if the moot could have elected Torygg if he had refused the challenge. Instead, her advisors probably started telling her how to run the hold.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

The moot that elected Torygg was ceremonial, not an actual vote. The only time it is actually a vote is if the High King dies without a son. Maybe she said that he had no choice because she thought that the moot would vote for Ulfric.

 

Still, should we really take Torygg's word for Ulfric being dishonorable? And no one comments on Torygg's honesty, or lack of it, ever.

 

Yes, she may worship Talos, she will ignore Imperial law to honor her dead husband, and she knows not to tell anyone about it. That doesn't mean that she knows the laws about challenges, and since one probably hasn't happened in over a hundred years, they were probably not considered extremely important.

 

I personally think she does worship Talos, but we don't know, and I don't see how that is relevant.

 

The temple still exist, but no one uses it as a temple. In fact, no one goes there ever, so Eltrys uses it as a secret meeting place. Ulfric freed the Reach from the Forsworn on the condition that Talos worship would be allowed. Then the Empire rescinded on its agreement, arrested Ulfric, and allowed the Thalmor to kill anyone in Skyirm found worshiping Talos.

 

They probably didn't spend time telling her if the moot could have elected Torygg if he had refused the challenge. Instead, her advisors probably started telling her how to run the hold.

 

Wow...

 

There is no evidence that the moot that elected Torygg was merely ceremonial. First of all you yourself use the word 'elected.' Second, Ulfric, whom I think we both agree does know Nord law did his best to convince the Jarls that it should be him instead of Torygg. That would have been against custom and law if Torygg automatically gets the position. Elisif wouldn't automatically get the position if a moot was called on Torygg's death, so why would Torygg? There is no evidence of gender bias in Nord society.

 

If Torygg was a dishonest untrustworthy man, wouldn't that be mentioned by those speaking of the duel? Can you name anyone at all who even hints at that?

 

You don't see the point of Elisif being willing to break Imperial Law with respect to Talos worship? Isn't that Ulfric's main theme? Isn't he claiming Torygg and Elisif are Imperial puppets that do only the bidding of the Empire and Thalmor? This is evidence to the contrary.

 

How do you know no one uses it as a temple? How do you hide something like that? It is marked on your map as the Temple of Talos. It isn't exactly hidden. No one admits to using it but that does not mean it isn't used.

 

And no, they might not tell her what would have happened if Torygg refused the challenge but you seem to forget, she is a Jarl herself now. You really think they haven't told her what her rights and options are? Knowing how to call a moot, and how to become High King (or in her case Queen) is Jarl business. Most of the actual running of the hold is left to the Steward.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

According to UESP "Though the Moot only convenes as a formality when a High King dies with a direct heir". I can't find the in-game source, but it is probably someone in the blue palace. So yes, there is evidence that it is just a formality. The reason Elisif didn't automatically become High Queen is because Torygg lost a duel, he didn't die of natural causes. Or are you saying that Ulfric should have to challenge Elisif too? There is a difference in nordic law between a king dying, and a king losing a duel.

 

Maybe Torygg isn't lying, but that doesn't mean he isn't mad at Ulfric. He could think Ulfric acted dishonorably, but that doesn't mean Ulfric did.

 

There is a difference between placing a horn at a shrine in secret and allowing open worship of Talos. Also, Elisif won't be the ruler for long after the civil war. The Empire will replace her with someone who can actually rule, or General Tullius will just use her as a puppet.

 

Go wait outside of it. No one ever goes in there. EVER. It isn't hidden, its just no one uses it. It is so abandoned that Eltrys thinks it is the safest place to have a secret meeting.

 

No, I don't think they went over the nordic laws about how to become High Queen. I think they just told her that Ulfric was evil, and they needed to kill him to make her HIgh Queen.