kimmera Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 @Kimmera According to UESP "Though the Moot only convenes as a formality when a High King dies with a direct heir". I can't find the in-game source, but it is probably someone in the blue palace. So yes, there is evidence that it is just a formality. The reason Elisif didn't automatically become High Queen is because Torygg lost a duel, he didn't die of natural causes. Or are you saying that Ulfric should have to challenge Elisif too? There is a difference in nordic law between a king dying, and a king losing a duel. Maybe Torygg isn't lying, but that doesn't mean he isn't mad at Ulfric. He could think Ulfric acted dishonorably, but that doesn't mean Ulfric did. There is a difference between placing a horn at a shrine in secret and allowing open worship of Talos. Also, Elisif won't be the ruler for long after the civil war. The Empire will replace her with someone who can actually rule, or General Tullius will just use her as a puppet. Go wait outside of it. No one ever goes in there. EVER. It isn't hidden, its just no one uses it. It is so abandoned that Eltrys thinks it is the safest place to have a secret meeting. No, I don't think they went over the nordic laws about how to become High Queen. I think they just told her that Ulfric was evil, and they needed to kill him to make her HIgh Queen. The Skyrim WIKI has that same statement but the source they quote to back it up does not actually say that. Those are player made sites, so it is not a given that the information on them is factual. The evidence is that she would normally become queen but needs the moot to endorse her, just as Torygg did when his father died. She and Ulfric both have claims to the throne but neither wants to call a moot in the middle of a civil war. You are right, of course. It is possible that Ulfric is the only one in Skyrim who knows Nord laws and customs. You seem to feel that neither Torygg nor Elisif know them... Yes, you are right that there is a difference between worshiping in the open and worshiping in secret. The Empire did lose the war. You may think it was winnable but base that on Ulfric's opinion and on Hammerfell successes, ignoring the consequences of the war on Cyrodiil and the fact that the Hammerfell troops never left home ground. The war was costly to the AD too but they didn't lose any infrastructure, didn't lose any crop land and they gained most of the known Elder Scrolls. Waiting outside places is using the game mechanics. If you go by that, people in Skyrim sleep maybe 1 hour a night at really weird hours. Have you considered that maybe people don't go in while you are watching.... because you are watching? And Eltrys is wrong. You and he get cut scened ambushed and stuck in jail. The funny thing is that happens even though you two are in there regarding the Forsworn and it has nothing to do with Talos worship at all.... Why do you also seem to think that the Jarls only have Imperial advisors? Again, you seem to think that Ulfric is the only Jarl in Skyrim to know anything about Nord laws and customs, and your arguments seem to be based primarily on his opinions (and maybe those of whoever wrote the 'about Skyrim' book). There are plenty of similar situations in RL. Quebec is subject to Federal Law in Canada, but has special rights under the Canadian Constitution, and has provincial powers as do all the provinces under the section of the constitution governing separation of powers. Each state in the US is subject to federal law, but state rights are individually very strong. Bavaria has special laws and its own governance in Germany, Scotland has its own parliament in the UK.... the list goes on and on. Being part of a larger empire or country does not mean being a puppet. That is a fallacy. And before you say those are all modern examples so they don't count, Rome had a similar arrangement with its regions. In the Roman Empire, Roman law even allowed regions to secede from the Empire, which was a factor in the fall of that Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 If Ulfric was talking about real reforms, like true democracy, not just Jarls voting it might be different but not sure the distinction of being the high king's subject instead of the Empire's subject is that important a thing. The Great War was a defensive war. The Empire weren't the aggressors. It's like those following Ulfric are saying 'The Empire is ok as long as there are no negative consequences, but if there is any price to pay, we're out!' The Empire is being scapegoated for AD aggression. Meanwhile the people don't really have any better representation. What happens if a Jarl personally disagrees with Talos worship? What about worship of the more positive Daedra? What about the way minorities are treated (Dragonbord excepted, but they are the Dragonborn and an obvious strategic asset)? What about the castle of 'plotting to take over the world' Vampires that are strong enough to wipe out Northwatch Keep on a whim any time they wished and are the obvious far greater threat, yet have been there since before there was an Empire? On what basis is Skyrim really better off completely independent, other than Ulfric having a happier ego? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 (edited) @Kimmera Are you sure the quote doesn't say that? I can't find who says it, but I remember hearing something about the moot just being a formality, unless the High King has no heir. I don't get what you are saying. According to the laws, there should be a moot to see if Elisif or Ulfric gets the throne, but now there is a war, so the law doesn't really matter. Torygg probably knows them, I think he is just still slightly mad at Ulfric for killing him. And yes, I don't think Elisif knows them. How do you know the AD took the Elder Scrolls? What if the Emperor took them with him when he fled the city? What if they were still in the city when the Emperor retook it? What if they had been put somewhere secret when the AD started moving towards the Imperial City? And I really don't feel like debating about weather the war was winnable on top of the other things we are debating right now. No one goes in the temple of talos except for the player, Eltrys, and the guards who kill Eltrys. No one EVER goes in there to worship Talos. EVER. Yes, the building is still there, but it is NEVER used. This is not a game mechanic, it would be very simple to program some npc's to go into the temple, it is the fact that everyone is too scared to go in there with the Thalmor around. Also, safest doesn't mean safe. Have you ever been in the Blue Palace? Elisif just does what her advisors tell her to do. And since Falk and Bryling are resigning as soon as the war is over, there will only be Erikur and Tullius left to control her. And both of them like the Empire. The common people don't get any say in government no matter who controls Skyrim. Yes, Skyrim is better off independent. There will be no more Thalmor kidnapping people, and people will have freedom of religon. What does the Empire bring that is good? I guess they do bring more trade, but Skyrim can still trade with the Empire even if it is independent. Edited June 16, 2015 by Elimc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidbossVyers Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 True. Heck, the East Empire Company operates out of the Stormcloak capital of Windhelm and has no qualms about hiring an adventurer in Stormcloak garb. As for the Elder Scrolls, whenever they "disappear", they typically follow the rule of artifacts in that they have a mind of their own and can literally go anywhere and any time with or without external influence, as implied in the last paragraph of http://uesp.net/wiki/Online:Ruminations_on_the_Elder_Scrolls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vernonmaxel Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Isn't Ulfric the reason to why the thalmor is trying to enforce the concordat? the thalmor was never able to enforce it untill ulfric came to give them a reason to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) True. Heck, the East Empire Company operates out of the Stormcloak capital of Windhelm and has no qualms about hiring an adventurer in Stormcloak garb. As for the Elder Scrolls, whenever they "disappear", they typically follow the rule of artifacts in that they have a mind of their own and can literally go anywhere and any time with or without external influence, as implied in the last paragraph of http://uesp.net/wiki/Online:Ruminations_on_the_Elder_Scrolls It was Septimus Signus' book that had the questionable date, so are you saying the Elder Scrolls randomly books through time? Note that Septimus is a follower of Hermaeus Mora. Besides, it really may have simply been a transcription error as surmised in the note. Edited June 17, 2015 by kimmera Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidbossVyers Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 No, it wasn't a transcription error because here is the original document in pristine condition, without the last paragraph, in fourth era Skyrim: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Ruminations_on_the_Elder_Scrolls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) No, it wasn't a transcription error because here is the original document in pristine condition, without the last paragraph, in fourth era Skyrim: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Ruminations_on_the_Elder_Scrolls Please.... how many copies did Septimus himself actually make? You think the books in Skyrim are all hand scribed by the original author? And ironically even the link you provided is on a real life website and thus a transcription. It isn't even a screenshot. But it is Septimus' book that has the 4E 195 publication date, not an Elder Scroll. Septimus is a follower of the Daedra of Knowledge and if it did travel back in time it could be due to that. The Dragonborn has and uses the time scroll as part of the main Skyrim quest line. It is the Elder Scroll of Time, not the Scroll of Rhunen. It is also possible that after the Dragonborn becomes a servant of Hermaetus Mora in the "Dragonborn" expansion, that they use the scroll of time (which they still have and apparently can read) to send that book back for some reason... Edited June 18, 2015 by kimmera Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 @vermonmaxel The Thalmor presence in Skyrim was not as strong as it is now before the Markarth Incident, but that is not entirely Ulfric's fault. Before the Markarth Incident, it was up to the Imperials to see that the treaty was kept. And while they may not have been killing people for Talos worship, they did force people to worship Talos in secret. This is confirmed by Hadvar saying that everyone used to have a shrine of Talos in their basement. But do you really think the Thalmor would have been kept out of Skyrim forever if Ulfric hadn't retaken the Reach? They would have gotten in sooner or later, and Ulfric accidentally made it sooner. But now he is trying to kick them out forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 @vermonmaxel The Thalmor presence in Skyrim was not as strong as it is now before the Markarth Incident, but that is not entirely Ulfric's fault. Before the Markarth Incident, it was up to the Imperials to see that the treaty was kept. And while they may not have been killing people for Talos worship, they did force people to worship Talos in secret. This is confirmed by Hadvar saying that everyone used to have a shrine of Talos in their basement. But do you really think the Thalmor would have been kept out of Skyrim forever if Ulfric hadn't retaken the Reach? They would have gotten in sooner or later, and Ulfric accidentally made it sooner. But now he is trying to kick them out forever. The Stormcloaks retaking the Reach isn't being questioned. What is being questioned is the whole 'We refuse to hand Markarth over unless you agree to violate the treaty." In other words, civil war was already being threatened even back then. If they hadn't given that ultimatum, underground worship could have continued with the Empire looking the other way. Instead, he called public attention to the unwillingness to abide by the treaty and thus brought the breach to the attention of the Thalmor, who now had an excuse under the treaty to set up the worshiper hunts. Ulfric shows no understanding of politics, nor any ability to actually govern. That is likely a big part of why the moot rejected him in favour or Torygg in the first place, and why he went to war rather than call a moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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