kimmera Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) @Kimmera No one in Solitude seems to care about the legality of the duel, except for Sybille, and she says it was legal. But then Tullius comes along and says that it wasn't legal. How does that make sense? The Empire could have realized Ulfric was about to declare independence, and sent Tullius to stop him from being able to. Ulfric wasn't planning on delcaring independince until he was the High King, so maybe he was going to try to get a moot to happen, and then Tullius showed up, starting the war. Or maybe Ulfric did run back to Windhelm, and start readying his armies to take Skyrim. We don't know. Well, the people in Whiterun would have assumed that the Stormcloaks had won once they occupied the city and a couple of them went into Dragonsreach, so they would have decided to choose a new Jarl. And while Ulfric probably would have vetoed a Battle-Born becoming Jarl, Vignar says the people chose him, so even if only Stormcloak supporters were valid canidates, he was still chosen as Jarl. Also, since no one is challenging Balgruuf, so I don't even see what you are trying to say. How do you know the fight against Balgruuf lasts seconds? It could last a few minutes. Ulfric did not simply attack Whiterun. In the Stormcloak version, he told it to pick a side. In the Imperial version, we don't really know exactly what sending an axe means, but he gave Balgruuf a warning that he was attacking, unless Balgruuf joined him. Either way, Balgruuf decides to join the Empire instead of the Stormcloaks, and Ulfric then attacks him. Have you considered that Ulfric might have started mobilizing before challenging Torygg? Tullius certainly didn't have time to mobilize his troops fast enough to block the gates. Even the execution of Rogvir was after Ulfric had already been captured and had escaped again. There is no evidence that Ulfric was trying to get a moot together. No one in all of Skyrim says anything about Ulfric having declared a moot, nor is there any correspondence even suggesting it in Windhelm. Again, the Empire can't go to civil war against itself. Citizens may consider an act of government justification for civil war, but war happens when they rise up, not when the government acts. Oh and 'about to declare independence' is still plotting treason. What you are saying is that if someone is actively plotting a murder, and the evidence is revealed, that they have done nothing wrong.... that makes no sense at all. As for Whiterun elections, you were suggesting the people gave up on their Jarl and started voting while he was still in combat. Seriously? What is your evidence that the people of Whiterun are so sympathetic to the Stormcloaks that they would do that? Even if you say they are just apathetic to who leads them, then why would they vote at all? How in blazes do they decide on candidates? Presumably Ulfric's commander would have been a leading candidate. Presumably the Dragonborn would have been a candidate (especially since he is likely a citizen and also likely a property owning Thane, which is more than Vignar is). Yet you claim all this is done spontaneously and pretty much simultaneously, and somehow Vignar simply knows the results to crown himself? Again, get serious. If I tell you "surrender to me and accept my leadership or I'll punch you in the nose until you surrender to me and accept my leadership," it is effectively the same as if I had just done the latter. Ulfric doesn't check to see if Whiterun has joined the Empire and it again, it would have made no sense for Balgruuf to be asking Ulfric to ally with him in support of the Empire. The meaning of sending the axe from Balgruuf's prospective, Imperial side: Balgruuf: "I'm not a fool, Proventus. I mean it's time to challenge Ulfric to face me as a man, or march his Stormcloaks up to the gates."Balgruuf: "I'm not the High King, but neither am I a boy. If Ulfric wants to challenge my rule in the Old Way, let him. Though, I suspect he'll prefer to send his "Stormcloaks" to do it for him." Regarding Imperial assistance: Proventus: "Then might I urge you to consider General Tullius' request? I mean, if you are bent on offending Jarl Ulfric..."Irileth: "Ulfric is the one who has offended. But, Proventus has a point. Ulfric has made it clear; in his mind, to refuse his claim is to side with the Empire."Proventus: "And what harm is there in letting a few Legionnaires die in place of your own men?"Balgruuf: "It seems cowardly." A bit later, regarding a note to be sent to the Empire Balgruuf: "Yes, to General Tullius. I need to make a few things clear before I accept these Legionnaires of his." Note that he is reluctant to accept assistance and only is willing to accept it on conditions he dictates. That is not the same thing as siding with the Empire. If he was siding with the Empire, he'd be subordinate to Tullius. By the way, Solitude is further away than Windhelm, so Ulfric likely got the axe question before any Imperial troops were even heading to Whiterun, so Ulfric's decision can't have been based on Whiterun siding with the Empire but rather Whiterun not siding with Ulfric. Edited July 6, 2015 by kimmera Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsmn Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I have never joined either side after my initial play through when I joined the storm-cloaks...but they attacked white run and killed so many innocents!!.. then the final insult was their treatment of jarl balgrouh and I liked him he's probably the best jarl in the game.....so I have tried as much as the game menu will allow to help worthy causes but as you point out the thalmor are the real enemy and the worst scum in the game...if only one could wipe them out..perhaps combine forces (general tullius and the stormcloaks) so as to attack the thalmore....is such a thing even possible? given the constraints of the game dialog and all......woodsmn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsmn Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) yes to all of the above ....to bad the game writers made it impossible to kill the worst and most obvious scumbags as easily as a dragon isn't it?...course...that would kill scripted quests so I guess the game is the game and that's all folks!! ....that's where you modders come in...my thanks to you all many times over!!! Edited July 8, 2015 by woodsmn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidbossVyers Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 First of all, your grammar and spelling are horrible. Secondly, what innocents? Besides Severio (could have been killed by either side accidentally), the only people who die are soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 First of all, your grammar and spelling are horrible. Secondly, what innocents? Besides Severio (could have been killed by either side accidentally), the only people who die are soldiers. You are correct that there are no civilians killed, but I still think Jarl Balgruuf is an innocent. As I said in the earlier post, the city is neutral with respect to the war, supporting neither side. The Empire respects that, Ulfric does not. Balgruuf isn't killed, but he is replaced by someone who hid in the background during all the fighting, then gets the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 @Kimmera As far as I know, Tullius didn't come to Solitude until after Ulfric challenged the High King. But that does not mean that Ulfric started the war. We receive no evidence of either side wanting a moot, so that argument works against the Empire too. Also, just because Ulfric would have declared independence if he became High King does not mean that Tullius has the grounds to start a war with him. If either side cared about being morally right over winning, they would let the moot happen. However, they both want to win the war first, and then worry about stuff like that. So you think Vignar just walked up to everyone and said, "I am Jarl now." and they just let him be Jarl? He is one of the most respected citizens of Whiterun, so it makes sense that he would be Jarl, but that is because people like him, not because he said he was Jarl. The LDB never gets to become anything important, but that is just game mechanics. And Galmar is a general, and probably doesn't even want to be Jarl. How would the citizens of Whiterun know that Jarl Balgruuf was still fighting? If the Stormcloaks controlled the city, and had some men inside Dragonsreach, the people would assume they had won, or were about to win. Like Irileth says, in Ulfric's mind, to refuse his claim is to side with the Empire. He also says that the if Balgruuf is not with him then he is against him when he is talking to Galmar. Maybe Ulfric should let Balgruuf be neutral, but he forces Balgruuf to pick a side. However, he does not surprise attack Whiterun while it is still neutral, he only attacks it after Balgruuf becomes Imperial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidbossVyers Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Actually, Galmar is the one who said, "If he's not with us, he's against us". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 @MidbossVyers But Ulfric agrees with him, and says that Balgruuf already knows that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 @Kimmera As far as I know, Tullius didn't come to Solitude until after Ulfric challenged the High King. But that does not mean that Ulfric started the war. We receive no evidence of either side wanting a moot, so that argument works against the Empire too. Also, just because Ulfric would have declared independence if he became High King does not mean that Tullius has the grounds to start a war with him. If either side cared about being morally right over winning, they would let the moot happen. However, they both want to win the war first, and then worry about stuff like that. So you think Vignar just walked up to everyone and said, "I am Jarl now." and they just let him be Jarl? He is one of the most respected citizens of Whiterun, so it makes sense that he would be Jarl, but that is because people like him, not because he said he was Jarl. The LDB never gets to become anything important, but that is just game mechanics. And Galmar is a general, and probably doesn't even want to be Jarl. How would the citizens of Whiterun know that Jarl Balgruuf was still fighting? If the Stormcloaks controlled the city, and had some men inside Dragonsreach, the people would assume they had won, or were about to win. Like Irileth says, in Ulfric's mind, to refuse his claim is to side with the Empire. He also says that the if Balgruuf is not with him then he is against him when he is talking to Galmar. Maybe Ulfric should let Balgruuf be neutral, but he forces Balgruuf to pick a side. However, he does not surprise attack Whiterun while it is still neutral, he only attacks it after Balgruuf becomes Imperial. You really don't seem to understand the concept. Skyrim is part of the Empire. The Empire didn't declare war on itself. Procedure would be for the Jarls (which includes Ulfric) to call a Moot, not for the Empire to do so. Again the Empire doesn't normally exert direct control like that. Chain o command and all that. Vignar literally does essentially say "I am Jarl now" though. Here is the dialogue: Balgruuf: "Vignar Gray-Mane! Your family was noticeably absent from the walls. Now I know why. Wouldn't a dagger in the back have sufficed?"Vignar: "You think this is personal? The Empire has no place in Skyrim... not any more. And you? You have no place in Whiterun anymore." .... Balgruuf: "Tell me, Vignar. Was all this worth it? How many of those corpses lining our streets wear the faces of men who once called you friend? What about their families?"Galmar: "Enough! Both of you! There is a burning city out there that needs a government."Vignar: "He's right. Galmar, come, let us restore order."Balgruuf: "This isn't over. You hear me you old fool! This isn't over! And you. A Stormcloak? I'd thought better of you. You'll all come to regret this day." Not only did neither Vignar and his family fight (not even in support of the Stormcloaks, he clearly knows Galmar, and Galmar clearly accepts him as Jarl immediately. They obviously had it pre-planned. The people are never consulted. And Whiterun only becomes Imperial because of Ulfric's threats. He never says 'pick a side.' He says 'join me or I will kill you.' Not the same. Besides 'pick a side' is still the equivalent of saying 'If you don't covert to our cause, you don't deserve to live.' That isn't even remotely the higher ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) @Kimmera The Empire tried to arrest Ulfric for a crime he hadn't commited, or for something that wasn't a crime, and Ulfric then decided to delcare independence from the Empire. But the Empire started the war because they tried to arrest and execute Ulfric when Ulfric hadn't commited a crime. Tullius has stopped the moot from happening by trying to capture and kill Ulfric. How is Ulfric supposed to travel to Solitude and declare a moot when he will be arrested upon entering the city? Tullius won't allow a moot to happen at all, simply wanting to keep Elisif as his puppet. If the people are never consulted, then how do you explain Vignar's dialoge, other than calling him a liar? And if he did really sieze power by having Galmar choose him, then wouldn't everyone already know that? So what would be the point in lying about it? He does not say "Join me or I will kill you", he says "Join me or I will take your city". He never threatens or plans to kill Balgruuf, only to exile him and take Whiterun. The only people who get killed in the battle for Whiterun are soldiers and that one farmer who could have been killed by either side. Edited July 12, 2015 by Elimc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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