Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

You said he and four other Jarls should all get their personal guard and walk up to Solitude. But Tullius would have to be an idiot to let all of those soldiers inside Solitude, and Ulfric would be an idiot to go into Solitude without them.

 

But thanes are supposed to be advisors, not rulers. There is a big difference there. The Jarls wouldn't be Ulfric's puppets because they know how to rule, and don't rely on him to do everything. Elisif does not know how to rule, and basically lets Tullius run the city. Balgruuf isn't anyone's puppet, he just picked the wrong side. And the Reachmen kill innocent people to sacrifice, and don't have a real reason to rebel. In fact, only a fraction of them joined in the uprising with Madanach. Most of them don't really want Madanach to rule.

 

Balgruuf knew that sending his axe to Ulfric would start a war though, so in the Imperial version you could say that he gave up his neutrality before Ulfric did anything. In the Stormcloak version, Ulfric did not completely ignore his neutrality, since he gave him a chance to join him. He attacked it only after the city was under Imperial guard. And how do you think Balgruuf and Tullius are going to stop the Thalmor when they ask to enter Whiterun? Tullius can hardly refuse, and with so many of his men in the city, Balgruuf won't be able to do anything about it. Also, Vignar does say he is trying not to make many changes, and most of the people don't say there is a big change, so I would say that Whiterun didn't change that much. Balgruuf knew sending his axe to Ulfric would start a war, he says so when you bring it back to him. And i don't see what you are trying to say with that analogy.

 

The Empire was making sure all Talos worship was done very secretly, or why would everyone have to hide shrines in their basement, like Hadvar says? The Markarth Incident was not treason, because the Empire agreed to allow worship of Talos in the Reach if Ulfric retook it. It was against the concordant, but it was not treason. The Thalmor would have gotten into Skyrim one way or another, the Empire couldn't have kept them out forever.

 

Personal guard does not equal army. There is a difference between one's personal retinue and mobilizing the people.

 

Ooooh, so Elisif is a puppet because she doesn't 'know how to rule?' And Torygg too? You seem to be defining 'knows how to rule' as 'does what Ulfric wants.' There is no evidence that Tullius runs Solitude other than in your imagination.

 

You are incorrect about the Reachmen. They sacrifice themselves, replacing their hearts with magical briars to gain power. Regardless, what happened to 'freedom of religion?' Don't have a real reason to rebel? That portion of Skyrim was conquered by Skyrim, and its leaders never swore fealty as the leaders of Skyrim did to the Empire. It also has successfully rebelled and been re-conquered in the past. But you are probably right... why would "Reachmen" have more claim to "The Reach" than men of Skyrim? I mean, it would be like thinking the men of Skyrim have less claim to Skyrim than the Empire does.....

 

Balgruuf knew that Ulfric would attack if he sent the axe because he knew that even if it was embellished, the Imperial information was essentially correct, that Ulfric was planning to attack. Giving Whiterun the choice of joining peacefully or being conquered is not respecting neutrality. "Either you are with me or I'll force you to be with me" is not respecting neutrality. Why are you still trying to argue this?

 

Making sure all Talos worship is underground is not the same as eliminating Talos worship. It is more like Germany after WWI, rebuilding its military capacity in secret paying lip service to the Treaty of Versailles until they could do something about it. Except in this case, the AD were the aggressors, not the Empire, yet the Empire seems to be taking the blame for being attacked.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Well if their personal guard was that small, then Tullius would just arrest and kill them.

 

Torygg did rule just fine, but he didn't want to secede, so Ulfric challenged him so Skyrim could. Erikur provides evidence that Torygg runs Solitude: "Oh, most certainly. At least, when Elisif herself asks. If you're inquiring whether we have concerns about her age and inexperience, well, let me put it this way... The Thanes have every confidence in General Tullius's leadership." Falk says that Elisif is in charge, but he sounds like he does not believe what he is saying. Unless I am hallucinating the wiki, there is proof.

 

They sacrifice themselves so that the silver-bloods can operate freely, not for any other reason. They worship Boethia, among other daedra, and like I said earlier, it is fine to ban someone's religion if their religion involves killing innocents. There is a big difference between banning Talos worship and Daedra worship. Also, they could just go to one of the shrines if they really wanted to worship the daedra, like all the other people do.

 

Ulfric was not planning to attack Whiterun unless Balgruuf refused to side with him. Ulfric does not recognize Balgruuf's neutrality, because he does not think Balgruuf should remain neutral during the war. He thinks that if Balgruuf is not with him, he has to be against him. Balgruuf knows this too, and still decides to side against Ulfric. I agree that Ulfric shouldn't have attacked Whiterun, but it is not enough to make me switch sides, especially because no innocents are killed. All that happens is Imperial soldiers die, and Balgruuf is forced to leave.

 

The Empire is being blamed for surrendering after winning a major battle, that probably would have turned the tide of the war, not for being attacked. The Empire was still trying to eliminate Talos worship by repeating the Aldmeri beliefs about Talos.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

Well if their personal guard was that small, then Tullius would just arrest and kill them.

 

Torygg did rule just fine, but he didn't want to secede, so Ulfric challenged him so Skyrim could. Erikur provides evidence that Torygg runs Solitude: "Oh, most certainly. At least, when Elisif herself asks. If you're inquiring whether we have concerns about her age and inexperience, well, let me put it this way... The Thanes have every confidence in General Tullius's leadership." Falk says that Elisif is in charge, but he sounds like he does not believe what he is saying. Unless I am hallucinating the wiki, there is proof.

 

They sacrifice themselves so that the silver-bloods can operate freely, not for any other reason. They worship Boethia, among other daedra, and like I said earlier, it is fine to ban someone's religion if their religion involves killing innocents. There is a big difference between banning Talos worship and Daedra worship. Also, they could just go to one of the shrines if they really wanted to worship the daedra, like all the other people do.

 

Ulfric was not planning to attack Whiterun unless Balgruuf refused to side with him. Ulfric does not recognize Balgruuf's neutrality, because he does not think Balgruuf should remain neutral during the war. He thinks that if Balgruuf is not with him, he has to be against him. Balgruuf knows this too, and still decides to side against Ulfric. I agree that Ulfric shouldn't have attacked Whiterun, but it is not enough to make me switch sides, especially because no innocents are killed. All that happens is Imperial soldiers die, and Balgruuf is forced to leave.

 

The Empire is being blamed for surrendering after winning a major battle, that probably would have turned the tide of the war, not for being attacked. The Empire was still trying to eliminate Talos worship by repeating the Aldmeri beliefs about Talos.

 

So Tullius would just kill half the Jarls, and their personal retinues, and the other half would just sit and watch this? At a moot?

 

When Erikur says that, I seem to recall it being pointed out to him that he is being treasonous. And frankly I still don't see any evidence of Tullius actually doing anything whatsoever with respect to running the city. Have you considered that Erikur might just be trying to reassure the Dragonborn over blind fears? He could also be talking about specifically the protection of the city against the Stormcloaks, in which case, it very much is Tullius' job. Tullius is a general. He has about as much experience running a city as Elisif does, possibly less. In fact, the wiki seems to think he was sent to Skyrim from Cyridiil to quell the rebellion, i.e. wasn't even there yet when Ulfric challenged and killed Torygg.

 

???? The Silver-bloods operate freely because they are rich and generous in the right places, same means Maven Black-Briar uses in Riften. The Forsworn and Silver-Bloods are not allies. The Silver-Bloods are seen as traitors because they stayed behind rather than joining the cause. The self-sacrifice thing is the process of becoming a Briarheart.

 

You really don't understand, do you? "Give me all your money or I'll beat it out of you" is robbery. It doesn't matter that the option of handing the money over without being beaten is offered, it is still robbery. "Oh, I won't attack if you just surrender" doesn't make it somehow right. Solders for a neutral power are innocents. Cripes, you are justifying every invasion in history....

 

The Empire accepted a truce after barely winning a major battle in which they had to throw pretty much everything they had left at the enemy. The Empire had lost troops and territory. Their capital had been sacked, and as you kept pointing out early in this thread, they don't even have enough troops left to properly keep the peace in Cyrodiil. But yeah... obviously the Aldmeri are a lot weaker than a few imperial thugs..... despite the fact the AD lost no infrastructure, only troops.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

He would charge Ulfric for treason, and the rest for helping him, which would also be treason. Not simply kill them, arrest and execute them without a trial. The other Jarls, who don't like Ulfric, wouldn't care. They would all vote for Elisif, and the Empire would rule Skyrim completely.

 

The part where Erikur was being treasonous was when he said he would sell some elven weapons to the Stormcloaks if they could pay more than the legion, which is just showing how greedy he is, not who he favors in the war. Did you hear any of Elisif's conversations with her Thanes? She always says she trusts Tullius, and that she will decide important stuff when talking to him. Erikur very clearly says that the thanes trust in Tullius's leadership instead of Elisif's.

 

Who says the silver-bloods are traitors? Who did they betray, anyway? Thonar was the only one who we know of that used the Forsworn, Thongvor might or might not be involved in that. But Thonar succeeds because he uses the Forsworn to kill people who get in his way. And for a while, the Forsworn were the servants, if not allies, of Thonar.

 

The Empire is weaker now than it would have been if they had tried to keep fighting, because then they would have the full support of both Skyrim and Hammerfell. Now it is losing troops in Skyrim and it's redguard troops have already deserted. The AD did not have enough forces to take Hammerfell, how would it have taken Hammerfell and Cyrodil? The cities have only recently began to be destroyed by bandits, so it is possible that the civil war weakened the Imperials in Cyrodil too much to keep the peace and stay on the border with the AD.

 

I already said that Ulfric shouldn't have attacked Whiterun, but the only neutral person who fought was Balgruuf. Any Whiterun guards who supported Ulfric would have joined his side, those who supported the Empire would have stayed in the city.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Elimc

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

He would charge Ulfric for treason, and the rest for helping him, which would also be treason. Not simply kill them, arrest and execute them without a trial. The other Jarls, who don't like Ulfric, wouldn't care. They would all vote for Elisif, and the Empire would rule Skyrim completely.

 

The part where Erikur was being treasonous was when he said he would sell some elven weapons to the Stormcloaks if they could pay more than the legion, which is just showing how greedy he is, not who he favors in the war. Did you hear any of Elisif's conversations with her Thanes? She always says she trusts Tullius, and that she will decide important stuff when talking to him. Erikur very clearly says that the thanes trust in Tullius's leadership instead of Elisif's.

 

Who says the silver-bloods are traitors? Who did they betray, anyway? Thonar was the only one who we know of that used the Forsworn, Thongvor might or might not be involved in that. But Thonar succeeds because he uses the Forsworn to kill people who get in his way. And for a while, the Forsworn were the servants, if not allies, of Thonar.

 

The Empire is weaker now than it would have been if they had tried to keep fighting, because then they would have the full support of both Skyrim and Hammerfell. Now it is losing troops in Skyrim and it's redguard troops have already deserted. The AD did not have enough forces to take Hammerfell, how would it have taken Hammerfell and Cyrodil? The cities have only recently began to be destroyed by bandits, so it is possible that the civil war weakened the Imperials in Cyrodil too much to keep the peace and stay on the border with the AD.

 

I already said that Ulfric shouldn't have attacked Whiterun, but the only neutral person who fought was Balgruuf. Any Whiterun guards who supported Ulfric would have joined his side, those who supported the Empire would have stayed in the city.

 

Most are sympathetic to Ulfric. They just don't like his methods. Killing off all the leadership is a lousy way to try to run anything. Again you are thinking of this like a game of Civilization or something. Stalin's purges made WWII a lot harder for Russia due to the expertise he killed off 'just in case of coup.'

 

"Important stuff" doesn't necessarily equate to all matters of state. Skyrim is at war and Tullius is an experienced general. Consulting and/or outright deferring to him on military matters is common sense. And again, Skyrim is a part of the Empire. It may run semi-autonomous but it is part of the Empire not merely an ally. That means being subject to its edicts.

 

Madanach and the other imprisoned Forsworn leadership call them traitors. And they are. The Forsworn are being manipulated by the Silver-bloods who are but not knowingly and against their best interests. The SB's are keeping Madenach and the other leadership in jail, forcing them to send out orders that support the Silver-bloods on threat of death. Thonar Silver-blood is killed by the Forsworn leaders if the Dragonborn sides with the Forsworn.

 

When the Empire surrendered, Hammerfell wasn't free yet, and Skyrim hadn't rebelled until after the events in Cicero's journal. There were no reserves available, no reinforcements. The AD might not have had enough troops to take Hammerfell but Hammerfell didn't have enough troops to push beyond its own borders either. Furthermore, the Empire didn't know that the AD would be pushed out of Hammerfell at the time. Again there wasn't perfect information available.

 

Why would Whiterun guards who support the Empire be left alive under Ulfric? At best they would be PoW's. Whiterun's guards would be all or nearly all killed off in taking Whiterun anyway.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Killing off the people who are actively rebelling against you is pretty much the only way to stay in charge. All the Jarls I mentioned were planning on rebelling if a moot didn't happen. There is a difference in killing off people who might rebel and klling off those who are rebelling.

 

So are you saying the ruler of Skyrim should be a puppet of the Empire? As soon as Falk retires, Erikur will have her wrapped around his little finger, as Bryling puts it.

 

The Silver-Bloods made a deal with Madanach that if they let him live, he would order the forsworn to help them. The Silver-Bloods didn't break this deal, so who exactly did they betray? Madanach betrayed the other reachmen so he could survive, and later he betrays Thonar, but Thonar didn't really betray anyone.

 

Hammerfell had fought the AD to a standstill, and was preparing to drive them back across the desert. No, but those events were 12 years after the end of the Great War, so the Empire has been declining in strength, because otherwise how did they keep their cities safe for those 12 years? The Empire didn't need to push into the AD's territory, they just needed to push the AD out of theirs. And there wasn't perfect information, but they did know that they had destroyed the AD's main army, so even if they were weak, so was the AD.

 

They would be killed in battle or captured, but the ones who didn't would be left alive.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

Killing off the people who are actively rebelling against you is pretty much the only way to stay in charge. All the Jarls I mentioned were planning on rebelling if a moot didn't happen. There is a difference in killing off people who might rebel and klling off those who are rebelling.

 

So are you saying the ruler of Skyrim should be a puppet of the Empire? As soon as Falk retires, Erikur will have her wrapped around his little finger, as Bryling puts it.

 

The Silver-Bloods made a deal with Madanach that if they let him live, he would order the forsworn to help them. The Silver-Bloods didn't break this deal, so who exactly did they betray? Madanach betrayed the other reachmen so he could survive, and later he betrays Thonar, but Thonar didn't really betray anyone.

 

Hammerfell had fought the AD to a standstill, and was preparing to drive them back across the desert. No, but those events were 12 years after the end of the Great War, so the Empire has been declining in strength, because otherwise how did they keep their cities safe for those 12 years? The Empire didn't need to push into the AD's territory, they just needed to push the AD out of theirs. And there wasn't perfect information, but they did know that they had destroyed the AD's main army, so even if they were weak, so was the AD.

 

They would be killed in battle or captured, but the ones who didn't would be left alive.

 

I thought you were taking the position that Tullius mobilized first, and that they hadn't rebelled yet. If they are (as I have been suggesting) already plotting treason, then yes they are traitors and Tullius' actions are justified. The Moot and whether Torygg was killed fairly or murdered are irrelevant (moot points? :P )

 

Should your city be a 'puppet' of whatever county it is in? Should your county or state be a 'puppet' of the country it is in? Seriously, if Skyrim is a puppet of the Empire, then the Holds are puppets of the High King. You don't get to arbitrarily say 'puppet' just because you don't like the decisions of one level of government.

 

"Made a deal...." they keep him in poor conditions in a dank cell and force him to honor that 'deal' by threat of death. Where did you get your sense of morality? Not even sure that Madenach has betrayed the other reachmen either, since even though they aren't working completely in their best interests under this plan, the fear of them that is built up proves useful so far, they are still killing non-reachmen in the reach, and if the Dragonborn sides with Madanach, he and his followers escape, his captor is killed, and he can lead properly again. He isn't really furthering the goals of the Forsworn but he isn't really working against them either.

 

Hammerfell fought some of the AD forces, not all, and didn't push past their borders. What would have happened if the Empire had tried to rely on them and they still didn't push past their borders? Or if the AD went to a higher degree of mobilization? Remember, Hammerfell wasn't the primary goal. Cyrodiil was. Invading Hammerfell was strategic, like going through the Ardens instead of the Maginot Line. The obvious goal was to gain the coast both to use as a staging area to out-flank Cyrodiil and to cover their own flank against Cyrodiil. They pulled the majority of their troops out of that region when they saw they could take on Cyrodiil directly. They have no particular reason for spending a lot of resources trying to hold it unless they are given a reason (such as Hammerfell becoming a threat). Ask yourself... why did Hammerfell sign a peace treaty rather than pressing on and punishing the AD?

 

Ummm... the Whiterun guards who aren't killed won't be killed? People not killed by the Spanish Inquisition weren't killed by them too... I guess the Spanish Inquisition were nice guys....

[MidbossVyers]

I'm not quite sure what you meant by that last line?

[kimmera]

I'm not quite sure what you meant by that last line?

 

I was responding to Elimc's last line, namely "They would be killed in battle or captured, but the ones who didn't would be left alive."

[MidbossVyers]

Yes, that's right. They would either be banished, like most of the Jarls, or just kicked out of the army, like Commander Caius (but apparently, he is still a commander in his heart, whatever that means).