Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[kimmera]

Yes, that's right. They would either be banished, like most of the Jarls, or just kicked out of the army, like Commander Caius (but apparently, he is still a commander in his heart, whatever that means).

 

But we were talking about Whiterun guards and the fact Whiterun is neutral, at least until Ulfric either demands it either join or be taken by force (Stormcloak version) or until Balgruuf asks Ulfric his intentions towards the city by way of axe, and Ulfric declares 'war.'

 

The fact that any guards who are not killed will not be killed does not excuse the fact that Ulfric is attacking a neutral power, and the guards defending their Jarl in Whiterun do not deserve to die simply for having the audacity not to bow to Ulfric.

[Elimc]

In the Imperial version Balgruuf knows sending his axe will start the war, so he is not really neutral.

 

What I meant by that line was that some of the guards would probably fight for Ulfric, since Whiterun is split 50/50 on the civil war. I think that at least a third of the guards would have joined Ulfric when they heard Balgruuf was siding with the Empire.

[kimmera]

In the Imperial version Balgruuf knows sending his axe will start the war, so he is not really neutral.

 

What I meant by that line was that some of the guards would probably fight for Ulfric, since Whiterun is split 50/50 on the civil war. I think that at least a third of the guards would have joined Ulfric when they heard Balgruuf was siding with the Empire.

 

No Whiterun guards fight for Ulfric. Check the coding if you don't believe me. Even Vignar doesn't fight for Ulfric in the battle of Whiterun. And saying the axe starts the war ignores the clear fact that the axe offers a choice, war or peace. All it does is decide when Ulfric attacks.

[Elimc]

That is simply a game mechanic so that players don't get confused about which guards are on which side. Vignar is an old man, why should he fight. Balgruuf is not simply asking Ulfric to ignore Whiterun and attack other Imperial holds, he knows he is choosing a side. By that logic in the Stormcloak version Balgruuf started the war by returning Ulfric's axe.

[Lachdonin]

Sweet testicles of Anubis, this is still going on? Bloody sodding Hells...

 

That is simply a game mechanic so that players don't get confused about which guards are on which side. Vignar is an old man, why should he fight. Balgruuf is not simply asking Ulfric to ignore Whiterun and attack other Imperial holds, he knows he is choosing a side. By that logic in the Stormcloak version Balgruuf started the war by returning Ulfric's axe.

First, no. There is no evidence anywhere that anyone in Whiterun fights on the side of Ulfric in the attack. Gameplay or not, there is nothing to indicate a schism amongst the population.

 

Second, again, no. The Axe is a gesture made to Ulfric by Balgruf about whether or not Ulfric is going to let him sit this out. If Ulfric accepts the Axe, Balgruf wouldn't support either side, and would let things fall where they may. By refusing the Axe, Ulfric is saying exactly what Galmar does. "You're either with us, or against us". It's a limited, black and white perspective, totally ignoring the fact that neither Balgruf nor most of Whiterun (or Skyrim for that matter) wants this war.

 

ULFRIC chooses Balgruf's side by basically condemning everyone who doesn't side with him, whether they side with the Empire or not.

 

Oddly enough, just like The Bear of Markarth said he did with the Reachmen.

[kimmera]

That is simply a game mechanic so that players don't get confused about which guards are on which side. Vignar is an old man, why should he fight. Balgruuf is not simply asking Ulfric to ignore Whiterun and attack other Imperial holds, he knows he is choosing a side. By that logic in the Stormcloak version Balgruuf started the war by returning Ulfric's axe.

 

You don't get to make claims about political allegiances and then hide behind game mechanics. You are assuming that there are only two sides and that Whiterun is not itself a side, that regardless of where sympathies might lie, that Whiterun troops might have a greater loyalty to Whiterun and their Jarl.

 

Vignar is an old man who wants to rule but doesn't want to risk his own life for it.

 

It is not even implied that Balgruuf is asking if Ulfric will surrender to the Empire, so where do you keep getting this 'Balgruff chose a side by sending the axe' idea?

[Elimc]

Balgruuf said that none of the Grey-manes fought in the battle, and since whiterun is split 50/50 on the civil war, it makes sense to think some people would fight for the Stormcloaks. And I am counting guards thinking Whiterun is a side, that is why I said a third, not a half. But as soon as the battle is over, the Thalmor will begin trying to get into Whiterun, and unless he wants to start a Great War 2.0, Tullius will let them. Being neutral is not an option. Whiterun is not its own country, Balgruuf cannot say "Whiterun is now its own country, but we are neutral, so you can't attack us". He is neutral because he hasn't made up his mind on which side to take, not because Whiterun is its own sovereign country.

 

Vignar is an old man, that is precisely why he shouldn't have to fight.

 

Because Balgruuf knows that Ulfric will return the axe, and says so when you return it to him. He is not just asking Ulfric to ignore Whiterun, or he would be more hopeful that Ulfric would accept his offer.

[kimmera]

Balgruuf said that none of the Grey-manes fought in the battle, and since whiterun is split 50/50 on the civil war, it makes sense to think some people would fight for the Stormcloaks. And I am counting guards thinking Whiterun is a side, that is why I said a third, not a half. But as soon as the battle is over, the Thalmor will begin trying to get into Whiterun, and unless he wants to start a Great War 2.0, Tullius will let them. Being neutral is not an option. Whiterun is not its own country, Balgruuf cannot say "Whiterun is now its own country, but we are neutral, so you can't attack us". He is neutral because he hasn't made up his mind on which side to take, not because Whiterun is its own sovereign country.

 

Vignar is an old man, that is precisely why he shouldn't have to fight.

 

Because Balgruuf knows that Ulfric will return the axe, and says so when you return it to him. He is not just asking Ulfric to ignore Whiterun, or he would be more hopeful that Ulfric would accept his offer.

 

1) 50/50 is two way, not three way, and you are just assuming 50/50 because they are neutral.

2) Where is it even implied that the Thalmor cannot enter Whiterun? There is no Temple of Talos in Whiterun. Why wouldn't they just note that and leave? The Thalmor are not an occupying force to the level you seem to think.

3) At the time, Whiterun is effectively neutral. They aren't taking orders from Tullius nor are they hindering him, and there is no High King giving them more direct orders. After the war they would likely end up siding with whoever wins, but they are acting in all ways as a neutral power. And frankly, it would be the Empire's place to complain about that, not Ulfric's. Why is it ok for Ulfric to rebel in the name of 'True Nord's but not ok for Whiterun to declare neutrality in the name of 'True Citizens of Whiterun?'

 

4) So if Torygg was an old man, he shouldn't have had to defend himself against Ulfric? Either it is right by might (as Ulfric and Vignar insist is the way of the 'True Nord') it isn't. Why should Vignar be exempt from combat if he wishes to rule?

 

5) Correctly predicting the choice someone else will make does not absolve that person of that choice, especially since that 'prediction' was based on the evidence from the Empire that you dismiss off hand. Tullius might have asked for some of the details to be embellished but the Dragonborn is sent to Whiterun in the first place because the Empire finds out that Ulfric is about to move against Whiterun. The Empire didn't just make that all up, despite what you seem to believe.

[Lachdonin]

Balgruuf said that none of the Grey-manes fought in the battle, and since whiterun is split 50/50 on the civil war, it makes sense to think some people would fight for the Stormcloaks.

 

You don't get to make that claim. You have literally no evidence, anywhere, to back it up. There is more evidence that Ulfric is a genocidal, malicious child murderer than there is that ANYONE in Whiterun fought on the side of the Stormcloaks.

 

If i can't assume the Concordant required concessions on the part of the Dominion (which i have been lambasted by Stormcloak supporters here for arguing in the past) i'll be damned if i let anyone make assumptions without any evidence (even if they may not be conceptually baseless)...

 

 

 

5) Correctly predicting the choice someone else will make does not absolve that person of that choice, especially since that 'prediction' was based on the evidence from the Empire that you dismiss off hand. Tullius might have asked for some of the details to be embellished but the Dragonborn is sent to Whiterun in the first place because the Empire finds out that Ulfric is about to move against Whiterun. The Empire didn't just make that all up, despite what you seem to believe.

 

 

There's also the fact that, Balgruf knows Ulfric. They've been sorta-friends/Rivals since they were young. Knowing how Ulfric will react, but hoping otherwise, doesn't in any way apply fault to Balgruf's decision.

[MidbossVyers]

I'm going to assume that you're being sarcastic on that first line. If you're referring to the Markarth executions, those occurred around 2 years after Ulfric's arrest, so he could not have physically had any say in it. As for Whiterun, it is possible that Whiterun citizens joined the Stormcloak army. Others were more like Vignar and were absent from the defense.