Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Lachdonin]

I'm going to assume that you're being sarcastic on that first line. If you're referring to the Markarth executions, those occurred around 2 years after Ulfric's arrest, so he could not have physically had any say in it. As for Whiterun, it is possible that Whiterun citizens joined the Stormcloak army. Others were more like Vignar and were absent from the defense.

 

No, i'm not being sarcastic. There is absolutely no evidence, anywhere, of anyone in Whiterun siding with the Stormcloaks during the battle. None, whatsoever. On the other hand, we DO have one source stating Ulfric executed women, children and non-combatants in the Markarth Incident. Whether you believe that source to be reliable or not (and you and i have had this discussion before) it's still more evidence than anyone in Whiterun supporting the Stormcloaks in the battle.

 

It's simple math. One piece of evidence, reliable, circumstantial or biased, is still infinitely more evidence than absolutely squat.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Lachdonin

[MidbossVyers]

Yes, simple math. The Markarth incident happened in 4E176. The events of Skyrim the game happen in 4E201. And Braig’s daughter would be 23 according to him today if she was still alive. So, that means she was killed after 4E178. Two years after Ulfric was arrested, which is what the Markarth Incident was about. No, I just meant that someone from Whiterun could have just as easily went to Windhelm to join the Stormcloaks and then participate in the Battle of Whiterun. Also, as Balgruuf said, the men of the Gray-Mane family were absent during the Whiterun defense. Others could have sat the battle out, as well. That's all.

[Lachdonin]

Yes, simple math.

 

Wrong math. And we've had it out on this before, there's no indication that Braig was in Markarth as opposed to the surrounding areas, his time-table could be unreliable since he's been in a mine for 20 years, and we have no exact dates as to when Ulfric was remanded into custody. Too many unknowns to explicitly discount Ulfric's involvement. There are some parts of the Bear of Markarth which make it clear that the text is biased, but because of the sketchy time-table it's impossible to outright discount the events.

 

The math i was talking about was the burden of evidentiary weight surrounding the involved parties in the Battle of White Run, not the time-table for the Markarth Incident or the atrocities surrounding it. Yes, there could be some individuals who had previously left to join the Stormcloaks (we know, in fact, that some have). But that wasn't the claim i was disputing, i was disputing Elmic's claim that some of the inhabitants of Whiterun, AT THE TIME of the Battle, could have fought for the Stormcloaks. There is nothing to support this, anywhere, at all. Nadda.

 

If we'e going to justify making baseless claims with absolutely no evidence in support of a flawed arguement, well then... Ulfric is a paedophile who drinks virgin blood. Its just as unsubstantiated a claim, and apparently we don't need anything to actually support bold accusations anymore.

[MidbossVyers]

No, I do agree that probably no Whiterun guards did an instant defection during the Battle for Whiterun, but we do know that some of the Whiterun guards who should have defended the city did not (as Balgruuf was complaining to Vignar about).

[Lachdonin]

Fair then. We do know that some people who should have been engaged in the defence of the city were not. Those that supported the Stormcloaks seem to have abstained from fighting at all, however, rather than actively standing with those they supported. Which is kind of cowardly and not very Nord-Like, but smart.

 

Ironically, it's the same thing that Balgruf was TRYING to do with the entire city. Stay out of it, regardless of what he may have personally believed.

[kimmera]

I'm going to assume that you're being sarcastic on that first line. If you're referring to the Markarth executions, those occurred around 2 years after Ulfric's arrest, so he could not have physically had any say in it. As for Whiterun, it is possible that Whiterun citizens joined the Stormcloak army. Others were more like Vignar and were absent from the defense.

 

I have heard that theory that Ulfric was in jail, however according to the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric, he was captured, interrogated and allowed to escape. What evidence do you have that he was still in jail 2 years after his arrest?

 

By the way, the dossier also states that the Thalmor feel that Ulfric's death would have harmed their position in Skyrim. They felt Ulfric was easier to manipulate and less of a threat to them than the Empire. Shouldn't that tell you something about the practicality of Ulfric's grand plan?

[MidbossVyers]

Yes, the Thalmor assumed that Ulfric would just cause a tug-of-war in Skyrim that would last indefinitely. In other words, they never assumed that the Stormcloaks would break through Markarth (that's why Ondolemar is there without a care in the world). However, depending on how the Civil War goes, the Stormcloaks could have taken Solitude easily and possibly Northwatch Keep (in a separate quest).

[kimmera]

There is no separate quest for the Stormcloaks to take Northwatch Keep (unless you have such a quest that is modded, but that would be unofficial). There is a quest to rescue Thorald Grey-mane, but that isn't a Stormcloak quest. That is a Whiterun quest and entirely a Dragonborn operation, regardless of which side the Dragonborn allies with. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Missing_in_Action

 

Ulfric was considered an asset before the civil war even started. "After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset. The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact."

 

I see you ignored my challenge to you to prove that Ulfric was still in prison at the time of the Markarth incident. Are you saying that the 'contact' with Ulfric after the war was the Thalmor talking with him in jail, completely ignoring the fact that was after they had allowed him to escape?

[Lachdonin]

 

I have heard that theory that Ulfric was in jail, however according to the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric, he was captured, interrogated and allowed to escape. What evidence do you have that he was still in jail 2 years after his arrest?

 

 

Ulfric was captured by the Dominion during the Great War. That's what's mentioned in the Dossier.

 

However, both Ulfric and Igmund indicate that, sometime following the Markarth Incident, Ulfric was handed over to Imperial custody for violating the White Gold Concordant. He even had his eulogy for his father delivered to Windhelm while he was still in prison. He was released at some point before Skyrim begins, and became the Jarl of Windhelm.

[Dusara217]

The Civil War as I see it:

Let's begin with an analysis of the two leaders. First off, Jarl Ulfric Stormcloak the Kingslayer:

Let me start off by saying that Ulfric is a highly capable and intelligent leader. The fact that he had the discipline to become adept in the usage of his thu'um speaks highly of his discipline, which is the kind of trait that serves a ruler and military commander well. On top of this is the fact that he is more than capable of using traditions to further his own agenda, which tells me all that I need to know of his ability in politicking. To compound this, Ulfric is highly charismatic, and is able to inspire the greatest hieghts of loyalty, unseen since the days of the Dragonborn Emperors. Plus, he has a sexy voice, the likes of which I would give one of my kidneys for. That being said, he is incredibly selfish, racist, and an absolutely HORRIBLE judge of character.

First of all, he is willing to let personal vendettas get in the way of acquiring valuable war assets. This is evidenced in the fact that he hardly even tried to get Jarl Balgruuf the Greater to join his side in the war. Balgruuf was straddling the fence there, he agreed with Ulfric, he just didn't like him. Balgruuf was also well-loved by his people, and he loved them in return. The fact of the matter is, Balgruuf could have swayed many of the citizens of his Hold over to Ulfric's side. However, in spite of his immense value, Ulfric doesn't even send an envoy, he just deposes him and runs roughshod over the people of Whiterun. What this says about Ulfric's character is simple: he's as bad as Leman Russ from 40k, and is more than willing to let personal vengeance get in the way of winning a war. He is also very racist, and alienates all of his potential mer allies by shunting them into a ghetto and completely ignoring them when they plead with him for help against bandits who are raiding exclusively them, as it is well-known that Ulfric doesn't give a rat's ass about his mer subjects. These mer could very easily have become valuable allies, due to their famous abilities in stealth and magic. On top of that is the fact that he doesn't even let Argonians and Khaniit into his city, whose infamous skills in stealth and thievery could have gained him valuable spies and infiltrators. Just another example of Ulfric letting personal opinions get in the way of winning a war, but, more than that, it is an example of Ulfric OPPRESSING the denizens of his Hold, which would likely just lead to him aggravating the Forsworn and other smaller factions, should he win the war. On top of his character faults, Ulfric has a nasty habit of picking weak allies, as well as douche bags. An example of the first would be Dawnstar and Winter hold, both of whom are low in population as well as resources, while he alienated the people of Whiterun by deposing their Jarl. An example of the second would be Jarl Laila Law-Giver, of Riften, who is, quite simply, a gullible fool and snotty noble with minimal regard for her subjects. However, at least she can provide a decent amount of manpower to Ulfric's cause. And now, of course, we get to the heart of the issue with Ulfric: the fact that he was the one who brought the Thalmor into Skyrim in the first place. Had he not started raising trouble and bitching about the White-Gold Concordat, the Empire would have continued to fail to enforce the Thalmor's demands of eliminating Talos worship, and would have been able to continue to gather the strength needed to defeat the Thalmor. But no, he decides to start whining about it, and draws the attention to Skyrim, which causes the Thalmor to force the Empire to enforce the anti-Talos, and, when they still don't do it, Thalmor Justicars come and enforce the law.

 

Now, on to General Tullius:

Tullius is your stereotypical, no-nonsense soldier who only wants to get the job done. General Tullius is just barely charismatic enough to inspire his men, but is also an able combatant, skilled tactician, and able diplomat. He finds Nord customs quaint and irritating, as many foreigners do, but is more than willing to listen to his advisers, which is, arguably, his saving grace. Tullius, more than anything, just wants to win the war so that the Empire can turn its full attention to gathering its strength to fight the Aldmeri Dominion. Of course, now, Tullius is, by no means, a great leader or kingly material. He, quite simply, a good soldier and a good general, with solid skills and intelligence to match. He has no glaring weaknesses of character, but few powerful strengths of it. His one truely great strength is good, reliable advisers and a willingness to listen.

 

As I'm sure you understand by now, I sided with the Imperials. IMHO, the only way the Thalmor will be defeated is with the full might of the Imperial Legions augmented by the men and women of Skyrim and allied support from High Rock and the Hammerfell resistance. Optimally, the Dragon born would become Emperor, due to the fact that there was an entire dynasty of Dragonborn, and his accomplishments, such as slaying Alduin and saving the world, are those of a true hero.

 

Please forgive any spelling errors, I typed this up on my cell phone.