MidbossVyers Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Night of Terror, what the hell? No, Markarth was taken over by the Forsworn. Ulfric offers his forces to help, but not for free. He wanted to reinstate Talos worship. Igmund agreed, used Ulfric's services, and then tossed Ulfric aside by reneging on the treaty. You're right to say that Talos worship is illegal. Therefore, Igmund did not have to agree to Ulfric's terms and could have tried to wait until the proper Legion showed up. Obviously, this means longer Forsworn reign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Ok, a line needs to be drawn here. The FORESWORN did NOT take over Markarth. The Reachmen did. The Foresworn were born out of of the brutal slaughter of the Reachmen following the Markarth Incident. The Reachmen who took Markarth were not the super violent, human sacrificing Hercine worshippers you fight in Skyrim. They were the downtrodden inhabitants of the city, the silver workers and minor land holders, every bit as 'civilized' as the Nords. They reverted to 'The Old Ways' after the fact, because of their treatment by the Nords. They tried it the 'right' way, now they're going to eat Nord babies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Ok, a line needs to be drawn here. The FORESWORN did NOT take over Markarth. The Reachmen did. The Foresworn were born out of of the brutal slaughter of the Reachmen following the Markarth Incident. The Reachmen who took Markarth were not the super violent, human sacrificing Hercine worshippers you fight in Skyrim. They were the downtrodden inhabitants of the city, the silver workers and minor land holders, every bit as 'civilized' as the Nords. They reverted to 'The Old Ways' after the fact, because of their treatment by the Nords. They tried it the 'right' way, now they're going to eat Nord babies. Not sure about that, since they are the "Old Ways" not the "New Ways" Night of Terror, what the hell? No, Markarth was taken over by the Forsworn. Ulfric offers his forces to help, but not for free. He wanted to reinstate Talos worship. Igmund agreed, used Ulfric's services, and then tossed Ulfric aside by reneging on the treaty. You're right to say that Talos worship is illegal. Therefore, Igmund did not have to agree to Ulfric's terms and could have tried to wait until the proper Legion showed up. Obviously, this means longer Forsworn reign. It wasn't a negotiable option though. Even setting aside the Empire, Igmund is just a Jarl, and even if there was no Empire, breaking an international treaty would be a High King level decision. And it was the Imperial troops arriving to relieve Ulfric's men who had to deal with Ulfric's ultimatum. Igmund was willing to honour it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Ok, a line needs to be drawn here. The FORESWORN did NOT take over Markarth. The Reachmen did. The Foresworn were born out of of the brutal slaughter of the Reachmen following the Markarth Incident.The Reachmen who took Markarth were not the super violent, human sacrificing Hercine worshippers you fight in Skyrim. They were the downtrodden inhabitants of the city, the silver workers and minor land holders, every bit as 'civilized' as the Nords. They reverted to 'The Old Ways' after the fact, because of their treatment by the Nords. They tried it the 'right' way, now they're going to eat Nord babies. Not sure about that, since they are the "Old Ways" not the "New Ways" Exactly. The Foresworn have reverted to the Old Ways, which seem to have been largely abandoned since the mid Third Era. When their attempt at revolution and independance failed, they turned back to their old gods and old practices, probably because they have actually worked on occasion. The Reachmen who rebelled were more like Nepos, and less like Briarheart #314. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPatch Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Night of Terror, what the hell? No, Markarth was taken over by the Forsworn. Ulfric offers his forces to help, but not for free. He wanted to reinstate Talos worship. Igmund agreedNight of Terror, but lasting a lot longer than just one night. Actually, come to think of it, Reign of Terror would have been more appropriate: http://70-38-68-148.losaca.adelphia.net/wiki/Skyrim:Forsworn#The_Markarth_Incident "Captured Reachmen were brutally tortured and executed by the Nords, with the few that were spared being imprisoned in Cidnha Mine." And here: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Markarth_Incident "Reports vary, but it is said that every official who worked for the Reachmen was killed, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up names of Reachmen fighters who had fled the city. Anyone who lived in the city, Reachmen and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. Ulfric supposedly even ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him." That certainly sounds like Terror to me. Just as bad as anything that happened in the French Revolution. It really doesn't matter what terms _Igmund_ agreed to; he wasn't the Emperor and in no way represented the Imperial government. Ulfric demanded something that Igmund had zilch authority to give. But when choosing to make a false promise and getting his Hold back, versus waiting until the Empire *finally* got adequate forces in the area to boot out the Reachmen, _of course_ he said "Sure!" Then later when the Empire was back in control and demanded that he revoke the deal, _of course_ he said "Sure!" again. He was a politician, and like most polticians, the policy, is to say whatever needs to be said to get into power and thereafter to stay there. Pointedly, the Empire did not break faith with Ulfric. It was just a case of Igmund offering to give something that was not his to give, and Ulfric being stupid enough to think that a lowly jarl could make agreements that the Empire would feel obligated to uphold. That would be a case of "the tail wagging the dog". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) Pointedly, the Empire did not break faith with Ulfric. It was just a case of Igmund offering to give something that was not his to give, and Ulfric being stupid enough to think that a lowly jarl could make agreements that the Empire would feel obligated to uphold. That would be a case of "the tail wagging the dog".This is something I've argued repeatedly, and never seems to sink in. Igmund has no authority to reinstate Talks. Torygg's father has no authority to reinstate Talos. The ELDER COUNCIL has no authority to reinstate Talos. Titus Mede II, as the absolute head of state for the Empire, is the only one that can do it. He is the federal government to Igmund's municipal. It doesn't matter what Igmund, or the High King promises, if it violates the laws of the Empire. It would be like New York outlawing same sex marriage. Sure, they can pass the bill, instate the bylaw and even try to enforce it, but it's still a violation of the GREATER law, and a penalty will be paid for it. It's something of a poor reflection on Igmund that he sold out Ulfric rather than taking responsibility for his OWN failing (a lot of stink is made about Ulfric's role, but he wouldn't have had any issues if Igmund had of held his ground and refused). He really is one of the worst leaders in Skyrim, probably second only to Layla Lawgiver... Edited July 28, 2015 by Lachdonin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidbossVyers Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 See. I agree with that. Ulfric could have said whatever conditions for his help. Igmund did not have to agree to it. For example, if you go into a store to buy something and find what you want at a ridiculously high price, does it not reflect badly on your character to "purchase" that by writing a bouncing check? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 @CaptainPatch The Bear of Markarth is a very biased source that is not taken as absolute truth by anyone else on this thread, even Lachdonin and Kimmera. If the atrocities it describes actually happened, then why wouldn't Braig or Madanach use them as reasons to convince you to join them. Braig says a "Jarl" ordered his daughter to be executed. Since Ulfric was not a Jarl at the time, and Braig probably doesn't know that Ulfric is Jarl now, due to him being in prison, he is almost certainly talking about Igmund. @Lachdonin Yes, Igmund had no authority to reinstate Talos worship, and neither did the Imperial general, but they both acted like they did. Ulfric might not have known that they didn't, since he was young at the time and not a Jarl. He made a deal, and expected it to be kept. When he realized that the Empire would never allow Talos worship, or the fair treatment of its citizens, he rebelled. And I would say that Igmund is worse than Laila, because at least Laila doesn't allow murders to run around free, only thieves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Yes, Igmund had no authority to reinstate Talos worship, and neither did the Imperial general What Imperial General are we talking about? There was no Imperial representative present for the Markarth Incident, only Nords. And I would say that Igmund is worse than Laila, because at least Laila doesn't allow murders to run around free, only thieves. Igmund may be an intolerant, corrupt hypocrite, but at least he can run his own Hold. Laila is totally incompetent, entirely unable to run her own court let alone the Rift, a terrible judge of character and probably the single most oblivious individual in all of Skyrim. I don't like Maven, but at least she can maintain a functional enterprise without looking like a drooling moron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 @CaptainPatch The Bear of Markarth is a very biased source that is not taken as absolute truth by anyone else on this thread, even Lachdonin and Kimmera. If the atrocities it describes actually happened, then why wouldn't Braig or Madanach use them as reasons to convince you to join them. Braig says a "Jarl" ordered his daughter to be executed. Since Ulfric was not a Jarl at the time, and Braig probably doesn't know that Ulfric is Jarl now, due to him being in prison, he is almost certainly talking about Igmund. @Lachdonin Yes, Igmund had no authority to reinstate Talos worship, and neither did the Imperial general, but they both acted like they did. Ulfric might not have known that they didn't, since he was young at the time and not a Jarl. He made a deal, and expected it to be kept. When he realized that the Empire would never allow Talos worship, or the fair treatment of its citizens, he rebelled. And I would say that Igmund is worse than Laila, because at least Laila doesn't allow murders to run around free, only thieves. Igmund was even younger, and had only been a Jarl for what? A few days? Weeks? Maybe a couple months? He hadn't had time for any training yet. The Imperial commander was likely not as high ranking as a General. Tullius wasn't sent to Skyrim until after Ulfric had rebelled. On the other hand, Ulfric had served directly under Imperial command in the Great War, so should have had a good idea of how chain of command works. At the very least he'd know how it works in Skyrim, for example, he knows the High King has authority over the Jarls, so he should know better. It is worth noting thought that the Thalmor had been in touch with Ulfric and may have been manipulating him with false information, such as telling him that Igmund and/or the local Imperial commander had been given more authority than they really had. Even so, he should have known better. By the way, Laila Lawgiver isn't that bad. The Thieves' Guild may not be under control by way of her actions directly, but until the Dragonborn takes over 99% of the thieving duties for the Guild, they really are completely inept and thus 'under control.' Riften doesn't seem to be particularly suffering despite Mayven, and frankly, it seems less corrupt than Markarth (which has actual slums), or even Windhelm (which has a serial killer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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