Lachdonin Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 it seems less corrupt than Markarth (which has actual slums), or even Windhelm (which has a serial killer). We're talking about the city where you're openly threatened in the streets, and where the city guards try to extort money out of you, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPatch Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 (edited) Yes, Igmund had no authority to reinstate Talos worship, and neither did the Imperial general, but they both acted like they did. Ulfric might not have known that they didn't, since he was young at the time and not a Jarl. He made a deal, and expected it to be kept.And doesn't that demonstrate just how inept of a political leader he was? ULFRIC WAS THE SON OF A JARL. Destined to become a jarl himself. How stupid would he have to be to forget that a Jarl answers to the High King and that the High King answers to the Emperor? No jarl was in a position to make deals that would be binding on the High King, much less the Emperor. To delude himself into believing that Igmund had that much authority paints Ulfric to be either incredibly naive and/or downright uneducated. Either trait foreshadows inept rulership if Ulfric were to ever graduate to being a ruler. Edited July 28, 2015 by CaptainPatch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 @Lachdonin Ulfric didn't let the "Empire" into Markarth until they agreed to honor his deal, I assume there was an Imperial general or other representative there. Otherwise, who is the generic Empire referring too? And while Lalia may be the most incompetent Jarl, except for Siddgier, I would still rather get robbed than killed, so Igmund goes first on my list of bad Jarls. @CaptainPatch Ulfric assumed the Imperial he made a deal with would keep his end of the deal, and did not realize he would be betrayed. He might have been told TMII had agreed to the deal, or maybe Torygg's father had agreed to it, and he thought the Empire wouldn't force him to break the deal. Igmund says that they thought the AD wouldn't find out, so he might have been told that the Empire didn't mind. When he realized that the Empire cared more about keeping the AD happy than the problems of its citizens, he rebelled. @Kimmera The argonians are banned from entering the city because Ulfric doesn't want them to fight with the Dunmer, even Brunwulf won't allow them into the city. And Tullius saying that Nords are a bunch of lawless barbarians is racist. He has no respect for Nord customs, and just wants them to give resources to Cyrodil, not complain when Thalmor kill innocents, and get nothing in return. He is not the most racist person in Tamriel, but he is definitely as racist as Ulfric, and probably more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 @Lachdonin Ulfric didn't let the "Empire" into Markarth until they agreed to honor his deal, I assume there was an Imperial general or other representative there. Otherwise, who is the generic Empire referring too? And while Lalia may be the most incompetent Jarl, except for Siddgier, I would still rather get robbed than killed, so Igmund goes first on my list of bad Jarls. What Imperial? Igmund only mentions 'We' in regards to the situation, not any Imperial representatives. Ulfric demanded a PEER reinstate Talos, when he should have known full well that Igmund had no authority to grand that. There's nothing to suggest there was any official Imperial representation until well after the incident was resolved. As for Laila... We'll have to differ on that. So long as you keep your nose down and do your job, you're safe in Markarth. In Riften, literally anyone can mug you for your wallet, and the Jarl is to incompetent to do anything about it. I'd rather live in a corrupt police state than anarchy. He has no respect for Nord customs The Nords don't even respect their own customs, so that's not really a problem. In fact, Ulfric is one of the biggest hipocrites around, selective picking and choosing which customs to respect so long as they uphold his position. and just wants them to give resources to Cyrodil, not complain when Thalmor kill innocents, and get nothing in return. Except, Cyrodiil sends a great deal of resources to Skyrim. In fact, 3 Jarls note that the province is somewhat dependant on foodstuffs from Cyrodiil. And the Thalmor don't get to kill innocents, they get to kill criminals. Whether you agree with the ban or not, the worship of Talos is a criminal offence. Those that do so are not innocent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 @Lachdonin Ulfric didn't let the "Empire" into Markarth until they agreed to honor his deal, I assume there was an Imperial general or other representative there. Otherwise, who is the generic Empire referring too? And while Lalia may be the most incompetent Jarl, except for Siddgier, I would still rather get robbed than killed, so Igmund goes first on my list of bad Jarls. @CaptainPatch Ulfric assumed the Imperial he made a deal with would keep his end of the deal, and did not realize he would be betrayed. He might have been told TMII had agreed to the deal, or maybe Torygg's father had agreed to it, and he thought the Empire wouldn't force him to break the deal. Igmund says that they thought the AD wouldn't find out, so he might have been told that the Empire didn't mind. When he realized that the Empire cared more about keeping the AD happy than the problems of its citizens, he rebelled. @Kimmera The argonians are banned from entering the city because Ulfric doesn't want them to fight with the Dunmer, even Brunwulf won't allow them into the city. And Tullius saying that Nords are a bunch of lawless barbarians is racist. He has no respect for Nord customs, and just wants them to give resources to Cyrodil, not complain when Thalmor kill innocents, and get nothing in return. He is not the most racist person in Tamriel, but he is definitely as racist as Ulfric, and probably more. Refusing to let the Empire have control of Markarth is treason. The soldier who did any negotiating had no more authority to set aside the treaty than did Igmund. You also keep saying 'general' without anything to back that up. Holding a city hostage like that isn't something easily kept quiet. The Empire had no interest in informing the Thalmor of the incident. What in blazes would they gain in doing so? You are completely ignoring the obvious fact that the Thalmor are skilled at espionage and are very active at it, whereas the Empire has no counter-measures. The blades are disbanded and the few survivors are chasing dragons, only investigating the Thalmor in case they are behind the return of the Dragons. The other two possible counters are equally useless. The thieve's guild is a mess of incompetence and the dark brotherhood is not much better than the thieve's guild, and rather than being hired to take out the Thalmor, is instead hired by someone close to the Elder Council to take out the Emperor. And it isn't like the Markarth incident was unknown. People talk. As for the Argonians, they were enslaved and subjected to harsh racism by the Dunmer, yet it is the Dunmer, not the Argonians allowed to own property inside the city. Besides, the edict is about owning property. Argonians are still allowed inside the city, so your 'so they won't fight the Dunmer' explanation still doesn't make sense. Respect for Nord customs ends where those customs are being used in a manner treasonous to the Empire, such as holding cities hostage unless an international treaty is ignored, or taking up arms against the Empire. As has been stated, the Thalmor are not 'killing innocents' they are killing people stupid enough to worship Talos openly, and they weren't doing that until after Ulfric's little stunt at Markarth. Tullius is a soldier and a policeman. Name any police officer anywhere who thinks society would be better off with fewer police officers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 @Lachdonin The Bear of Markarth says that Ulfric only allowed the Empire in after they agreed to let him worship Talos, and since it is backed up by Igmund saying we, I see no reason not to believe it. Have you ever tried stealing something in Riften? The guards will try to arrest you. Only guild members can go around robbing people, and most of their operations are outside of Riften. Can you give any examples of Ulfric not following Nordic customs, other than the way of the voice, which is a philosophy, not a law all Nords must follow. Which 3 Jarls say they receive food from the Empire? I know Sybille says that food and resources from the Empire are important to our people, but she isn't a Jarl. The East Empire company works just fine in a rebel city, so if you're counting that it isn't really a reward for being in the Empire. You can't justify the Thalmor executing Talos worshipers by saying that Talos worship is against the law. Thalmor running around killing people for worshiping a god is enough reason to rebel by itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 @Lachdonin You can't justify the Thalmor executing Talos worshipers by saying that Talos worship is against the law. Thalmor running around killing people for worshiping a god is enough reason to rebel by itself. You can when it happens because an idiot who wants to be king jumps up and down and says "No, I don wanna play along!" and thus draws attention to the fact the Empire is being lax on Talos worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 @Kimmera The Empire was still forcing people to worship Talos in secret, and although they didn't kill people found worshiping Talos, they did punish them. Ulfric just wanted freedom of religion, can you blame him for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 (edited) @Kimmera The Empire was still forcing people to worship Talos in secret, and although they didn't kill people found worshiping Talos, they did punish them. Ulfric just wanted freedom of religion, can you blame him for that? More like asking. There is no mention of any mass round ups. A good example would be Daedra worship, which is illegal. However no one (Imperial or Stormcloak) makes any apparent attempt to eliminate the shrines, and despite the implications, city guards and Imperial troops seem impressed if the Dragonborn has Azura's Star rather than horrified or treating it like a crime. This is especially strange since it is a soul gem capable of holding human souls. Edited July 29, 2015 by kimmera Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPatch Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 You can when it happens because an idiot who wants to be king jumps up and down and says "No, I don wanna play along!" and thus draws attention to the fact the Empire is being lax on Talos worship. And this is actually a major issue. The Empire had been kind of lax about the No-Talos-Worship aspect. Talos worshippers that kept their worship on the down-low had been able to do so. (Much like Catholics in Protestant England.) Igmund most likely agreed to Ulfric's demand because of that perceived laxness. Yeah, the temples were shut down, but you WILL notice that the Talos shrines are still to be found all over Skyrim. It was Ulfric kicking up a fuss in Markarth, insisting that Igmund guarantee total freedom of worship that drew both the AD's and Empire's attention to the fact that WGC or not, there were _still_ LOTS of Talos worshippers in Skyrim. Which is what probably triggered the Thalmor Talos-hunting patrols ranging all over Skyrim -- and the Empire unable to refuse the Thalmor demand to be allowed to do so because all they had to do was point at Markarth and Ulfric to prove their argument that there were still LOTS of scofflaws in Skyrim that needed to be suppressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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