kimmera Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 No, it's not: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Hide_and_Seek_%28quest%29 Only because the target isn't known to be a vampire. If you are caught killing the target without them being outed as a vampire first, to the guards, you are killing an honest non-vampire civilian, which is obviously illegal. Try walking down the street in obvious "Vampire Lord" form and see how 'legal' vampires are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPatch Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 (edited) Generally speaking, to governments killing vampires falls into the same category as killing man-eating beasts. (Which, when you stop to think about it, is pretty much the case.) So the Dawnguard get a pass when attacking KNOWN vampires. The difference between Vigilants hunting Daedra-worshipers and Thalmor hunting Talos-worshipers is that the latter was part of a Peace Treaty (WGC) stipulation. That is, Vigilants are operating under a theological imperative while the Thalmor are operating under a political imperative. Overall, I gather that the Empire really doesn't want to get involved in religious squabbles, even when it involves human(oid) sacrifice. Like, why doesn't the government do anything to suppress Boethiah worship when one of its earliest tenets is to lure some fool to the shrine site and murder him/her? OTOH, the only way to get the peace that the Empire wanted at the end of the Great War was to include the "No Talos worship allowed!" clause. Edited July 30, 2015 by CaptainPatch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 @CaptainPatch Since Daedra worship (usually) involves human sacrifice, groups like the vigilants try to stop it. The Empire has decided not to take a side in order to not make enemies with either group. The Thalmor hunt down Talos worshippers (who do not sacrifice people) and the vigilants hunt down Daedra worshipers (who do sacrifice people). The Vigilants hunt Daedra worshipers not only because of Stendarr, but also because they don't want innocents to be killed. The difference between worship of Talos and Daedra worship is that one involves killing innocents, and one doesn't. It is much harder to justify Daedra worship than Talos worship. The Empire could have just pushed the AD back into Valenwood and then just held there. They didn't need to defeat the AD, just to push them out of Cyrodil (which is possible, as shown by the Redguards). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdonin Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) @CaptainPatch Since Daedra worship (usually) involves human sacrifice Really? That'd be news to most Daedra worshippers. Clavicus Vile, Sanguine, Azura, Meridia, Vaermina, Hermaeus Mora, Malacath, Nocturnal and Peyrite rarely, if ever, request human sacrifice, Boethia prefers combat (the one in Skyrim was literally the only sacrifice we've ever seen dedicated to Boethia) and Molag Bal seems more interested in just destruction than sacrifice. Really, only Hercine and Molag Bal regularly involve sacrifice. The Empire could have just pushed the AD back into Valenwood and then just held there. They didn't need to defeat the AD, just to push them out of Cyrodil (which is possible, as shown by the Redguards). First, no, the Redguard did NOT push the Dominion back. They held to a standstill for 5 years before the Dominion decided to pack up. Second, the Empire DID push the Dominion out of Cyrodiil. They totally and utterly slaughtered the Dominion army there TO A MAN. They nailed the general to the walls of the Imperial City and kept him magically alive for weeks. The Empire did exactly what you're saying they should have. Meanwhile, a Hammerfell, united for the first time in almost a thousand years, could only hold the line against a supposedly beaten enemy. I'm sorry, but there is nothing about the war in Hammerfell that suggests the Empire had any chance of a continued war. The most accomplished warriors on the planet, led by hardened Legion veterans, were unable to drive a beaten enemy from their OWN land (a land that historically had served as their biggest strategic advantage). That the Dominion managed to hold onto a 5 year occupation, and was in a sufficiently stable position to force a treaty rather than a route, is more proof that they were still plenty capable than it is that they were beatable. Edited July 31, 2015 by Lachdonin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Vile asks you to sacrifice his dog, who is as smart as a human, does that count? I don't think there are any shrines to Sanguine, so you can't assume he doesn't. Azura doesn't require sacrifice, but as Nelacar said, "do you have any idea how many innocent lives were cut short, just so Azura could have revenge? We're nothing to the Daedra. Pawns to move around, praise, and punish as they see fit." Vaermina's worshipers somehow managed to start a war with some orcs, that is about all we know about them. Okay, Meridia does seem to be relatively nice. The only worshiper of Mora in Skyrim. (Septimus) gets killed by Mora. Malacath causes a bunch of giants to attack some orcs just because he doesn't like their leader. Nocturnal forces worshipers to go on the Pilgram's Path, which is very dangerous and probably killed quite a few of them. Peyrite is trying to take over the world with a disease, does that sound nice. Maybe they don't all require sacrifice, but they do tend to cause people to die. The Redguards forced the Dominion to withdraw from Hammerfell completely. No, they started doing what I said they should have, and then defeated the point of the war by surrendering to the AD. If Hammerfell could fight off the whole AD, why couldn't the Empire and Hammerfell fight of the whole AD? The Empire only needed to hold the line, since they had already retaken Cyrodil. The AD couldn't take one province, on its own, but you think it could take 5 provinces if they worked together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Vile asks you to sacrifice his dog, who is as smart as a human, does that count? I don't think there are any shrines to Sanguine, so you can't assume he doesn't. Azura doesn't require sacrifice, but as Nelacar said, "do you have any idea how many innocent lives were cut short, just so Azura could have revenge? We're nothing to the Daedra. Pawns to move around, praise, and punish as they see fit." Vaermina's worshipers somehow managed to start a war with some orcs, that is about all we know about them. Okay, Meridia does seem to be relatively nice. The only worshiper of Mora in Skyrim. (Septimus) gets killed by Mora. Malacath causes a bunch of giants to attack some orcs just because he doesn't like their leader. Nocturnal forces worshipers to go on the Pilgram's Path, which is very dangerous and probably killed quite a few of them. Peyrite is trying to take over the world with a disease, does that sound nice. Maybe they don't all require sacrifice, but they do tend to cause people to die. The Redguards forced the Dominion to withdraw from Hammerfell completely. No, they started doing what I said they should have, and then defeated the point of the war by surrendering to the AD. If Hammerfell could fight off the whole AD, why couldn't the Empire and Hammerfell fight of the whole AD? The Empire only needed to hold the line, since they had already retaken Cyrodil. The AD couldn't take one province, on its own, but you think it could take 5 provinces if they worked together? Vile's dog is Vile's dog and rejoins him after the sacrifice. The Mora worshiper gets killed because he is trying to take over. No one is forced to walk the pilgrim's path, not even every worshiper is required to walk it. People get killed in the service of governments, or guarding trade caravans or just running trade caravans. There is no intended sacrifice. "Defeated the point of the war????" The Empire were the defenders. They didn't start the war. The AD started the war. The Empire didn't have the resources to continue at the time. Neither did Hammerfell, really. The only reason the AD got in trouble was they got greedy and tried to take on Cyrodiil before properly consolidating and ensuring they more firmly held Hammerfell. You keep ignoring key facts, such as the huge Imperial losses at the Imperial City, and the fact that the Empire were outnumbered there in the first place even after allocating most of their forces to that battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPatch Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Vile asks you to sacrifice his dog, who is as smart as a human, does that count? I don't think there are any shrines to Sanguine, so you can't assume he doesn't. .... All of this are rather anemic counterarguments. Your initial stance insinuated that ALL Deadric Lords demanded human sacrifice on a regular basis. That is pointedly NOT the case. Some few do, but most only call for devotion. And like practically every deity in every pantheon imaginable, that devotion is expected to involve personal self-sacrifice, even to the point of being willing to die for one's beliefs. Do you imagine Christianity demanding "human sacrifice"? What were the Crusades if not a call to "Slay the infidels!" and drive them from the holy Land? And the burning at the stake thousands of heretics? Personally, I think that the Vigilants are simply overstating their "mission statement". Otherwise they would have felt obligated to shut down the Boethiah temple near Windhelm. It's not really all that hard to find. Likewise the temples to Azura and Meridia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Personally, I think that the Vigilants are simply overstating their "mission statement". Otherwise they would have felt obligated to shut down the Boethiah temple near Windhelm. It's not really all that hard to find. Likewise the temples to Azura and Meridia. The Vigilants might be the reason both the temples of Azura and Meridia are filled with undead instead of active.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPatch Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 The Vigilants might be the reason both the temples of Azura and Meridia are filled with undead instead of active.... I hadn't noticed that the temple for Azura was "filled with undead". Rather poorly attended, yes, but overrun by undead, no. (And the lack of patronage probably has to do with the fact that most of Skyrim's Dunmer live in Eastmarch or even further away. Now if Azura worship required at least a once-in-a-lifetime pilgrimage (like Moslems are encouraged to make a journey to Mecca at least once in their lives, regardless of how far away they live) it would probably be MUCH more active. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 The statue of Azura just has one Dunmer priestess, and no undead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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