kimmera Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 The statue of Azura just has one Dunmer priestess, and no undead. So instead of a temple filled with undead, it has no temple at all. Oh and Azura's Star was taken by a necromancer who happens to be guarded by necromancers and undead.... And my point regarding the temple of Meridia remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 (edited) @Kimmera You really think that necromancer in Meridia's temple would need help to kill a few priests and priestess? He was very powerful, and could easily have taken down the temple by himself. Also, how does no one bothering to build a temple to Azura effect this at all. The star was found by the college, but was it was stolen from them. Azura never had the star in the first place. Back to Whiterun, since this argument is pretty pointless. Balgruuf has not declared independence from the Empire, at least not as far as I know, and until he does he is against Ulfric. So Ulfric sends his axe, asking Balgruuf to separate from the Empire, and Balgruuf refuses, starting the war. Or Balgruuf sends Ulfric his axe, asking Ulfric to end the war and surrender, and Ulfric refuses. Edited August 2, 2015 by Elimc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 @Kimmera You really think that necromancer in Meridia's temple would need help to kill a few priests and priestess? He was very powerful, and could easily have taken down the temple by himself. Also, how does no one bothering to build a temple to Azura effect this at all. The star was found by the college, but was it was stolen from them. Azura never had the star in the first place. Back to Whiterun, since this argument is pretty pointless. Balgruuf has not declared independence from the Empire, at least not as far as I know, and until he does he is against Ulfric. So Ulfric sends his axe, asking Balgruuf to separate from the Empire, and Balgruuf refuses, starting the war. Or Balgruuf sends Ulfric his axe, asking Ulfric to end the war and surrender, and Ulfric refuses. Would have been rather a lot harder for him to take down the temple if it was in a city, wouldn't it? The point is that it is a lot easier to build or maintain a temple if you don't have vigilant-es hunting you down. Whiterun may not have formally declared its independence or not, but it is a neutral city nonetheless. It is clear from the Imperial side dialogue that the city is not supporting the Empire and that the Empire would be a lot better off in the war if it was supporting them. Seriously, if it was acting as part of the Empire, why would Tullius need to convince them they are about to be attacked? He'd just walk a commander in and lead the attack. Balgruuf wouldn't sent an axe anywhere. Meanwhile, Balgruuf only sends an axe asking Ulfric to surrender when it seems Ulfric is about to attack him? In what world does that make any sense? Why wouldn't he have done that right at the start of the war, or better yet, as soon as he heard of Torygg's death and before any casualties on either side (other than Torygg, obviously)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 The reason the temple was not in a city is because no one likes Daedra anymore after the Oblivion Crisis, not because of the Vigilants. If it was in a city the guards wouldn't have let the Vigilants attack it. Guards will even attack the Dawnguard if they send a squad to kill you in a city. Because although Whiterun is technically part of the Empire, Balgruuf is considering leaving it, so he doesn't want any Imperial troops in the city right now. But since it is still part of the Empire, it is still at war with Ulfric. And Balgruuf is supposed to say "I won't say it again, Vignar - Talos worship is forbidden. It's the Empire's law, and we're still a part of the Empire.", when he runs into Vignar, but he doesn't, because he never runs into Vignar. Balgruuf is still a part of the Empire until he leaves it. Balgruuf sends his axe to Ulfric because he is warning Ulfric against attacking Whiterun, and Ulfric sees it as Balgruuf siding with the Empire. And he wouldn't have done it at the beginning of the war because at that point he hadn't made up his mind on whether or not to leave the Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 The reason the temple was not in a city is because no one likes Daedra anymore after the Oblivion Crisis, not because of the Vigilants. If it was in a city the guards wouldn't have let the Vigilants attack it. Guards will even attack the Dawnguard if they send a squad to kill you in a city. Because although Whiterun is technically part of the Empire, Balgruuf is considering leaving it, so he doesn't want any Imperial troops in the city right now. But since it is still part of the Empire, it is still at war with Ulfric. And Balgruuf is supposed to say "I won't say it again, Vignar - Talos worship is forbidden. It's the Empire's law, and we're still a part of the Empire.", when he runs into Vignar, but he doesn't, because he never runs into Vignar. Balgruuf is still a part of the Empire until he leaves it. Balgruuf sends his axe to Ulfric because he is warning Ulfric against attacking Whiterun, and Ulfric sees it as Balgruuf siding with the Empire. And he wouldn't have done it at the beginning of the war because at that point he hadn't made up his mind on whether or not to leave the Empire. The Oblivion Crisis is irrelevant. The Shrine of Azura is similarly remote in Cyrodiil in Oblivion, despite that having been placed there before the Oblivion crisis. Furthermore, Azura is not Mehrunes Dagon. They are completely different entities and completely different faiths. if the shrine or temple was in a city, then anyone trying to drive it out would be violating Imperial Law. In fact, it is worth noting that the Museum of the Mythic Dawn is in a city, specifically Dawnstar. Apparently the one form of Daedra worship that is openly tolerated is the worship of the Daedra Lord that was behind the Oblivion Crisis. Either Whiterun is part of the Empire or it isn't. It isn't just refusing Imperial troops, but also isn't lending any other support to the Empire either. Things that an npc might have said if other coding was different don't count, since it may well have been that the original plan was for Whiterun to be Imperial and it was decided later to make it neutral since it is the Dragonborn's first major city, and that leaves more options open for the PC. You seem to think that this is some sort of magical axe that has different meaning depending on who sends it. Whiterun was never about to attack Ulfric, and Ulfric didn't send the axe hoping Whiterun would stay neutral and Balgruuf didn't send the axe to find out if Ulfric would join Balgruuf to fight the Stormcloaks. Your interpretations make no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Yes, but the Vigilants are not the reason the shrines aren't built in cities. One loading screen says that it is because most people don't like Daedra worship, but I don't remember the exact words. A museum is not a form of worship, it is just a museum. Exactly, Whiterun hasn't left the Empire yet, so it is still Imperial, and therefore at war with Ulfric. It can't just be both part of the Empire, and allies with Ulfric. Ulfric's axe is asking Balgruuf to leave the Empire and join the Stormcloaks, because the axe is a symbol of alliance and he wants Balgruuf to join him. Balgruuf sends Ulfric his axe as a warning for him to stop the war and ally with the Empire. The axe is a symbol of alliance no matter who sends it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Yes, but the Vigilants are not the reason the shrines aren't built in cities. One loading screen says that it is because most people don't like Daedra worship, but I don't remember the exact words. A museum is not a form of worship, it is just a museum. Exactly, Whiterun hasn't left the Empire yet, so it is still Imperial, and therefore at war with Ulfric. It can't just be both part of the Empire, and allies with Ulfric. Ulfric's axe is asking Balgruuf to leave the Empire and join the Stormcloaks, because the axe is a symbol of alliance and he wants Balgruuf to join him. Balgruuf sends Ulfric his axe as a warning for him to stop the war and ally with the Empire. The axe is a symbol of alliance no matter who sends it. Either there is freedom of religion or there isn't. Make up your mind. If there is, then the guards should have prevented any Daedric temples from being driven from towns and cities. Why is it ok for Daedra worship to be driven underground but Talos worship not? The owner of the museum openly says he is trying to recover and reform Mehrunes Razor, despite it having been deliberately broken up in the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis. That is far more treasonous than, say, dedicating oneself to eliminating undead as a Meridia follower. Where are you getting this detail on what the axe means? It makes NO sense for Balgruuf to be asking Ulfric to ally with the Empire. NONE. It makes equally little sense for Balgruuf to be asking Ulfirc to attack him. If absolutely nothing else, you are completely ignoring the fact that Jarls presumably talk and negotiate with each other without sending axes. Either could have sent the Dragonborn for more conventional discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 There is freedom of religion as long as your religion doesn't involve killing other people. Since most people don't know which daedra require sacrifice and which ones don't, they don't let people build daedric shrines in cities. They don't kill daedra worshipers, or ban them from cities, they just don't let them build giant temples in cities. But he doesn't want to use it to worship Mehrunes, he wants it to make his museum complete. I think it is a symbol of alliance, and since we do not have any definite source saying what it means, you can't say I'm wrong. You can say you think it means something else, and I won't be able to say you're wrong. Balgruuf is asking Ulfric to stop the war, even though he knows Ulfric won't. When you return to him, he is not surprised or upset that Ulfric refused the axe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmera Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) There is freedom of religion as long as your religion doesn't involve killing other people. Since most people don't know which daedra require sacrifice and which ones don't, they don't let people build daedric shrines in cities. They don't kill daedra worshipers, or ban them from cities, they just don't let them build giant temples in cities. But he doesn't want to use it to worship Mehrunes, he wants it to make his museum complete. I think it is a symbol of alliance, and since we do not have any definite source saying what it means, you can't say I'm wrong. You can say you think it means something else, and I won't be able to say you're wrong. Balgruuf is asking Ulfric to stop the war, even though he knows Ulfric won't. When you return to him, he is not surprised or upset that Ulfric refused the axe. And how, exactly, do they get rid of the temples? What if the worshipers resist? Do they somehow use nothing but non-lethal force? Meanwhile if Talos worship doesn't involve killing, what in blazes is the whole civil war? Ulfric isn't talking people into dropping their weapons. He has an army defending open worship of Talos and killing in the name of that cause, something you seem to claim would be illegal (even to the Nords) if the army was defending, say, Meridia worship. Silus may be building a museum instead of a temple but he has a page of the Mysterium Xarxes and will have Mehrunes Dagger in it. Those are artifacts that were broken up for a reason. Not being able to prove you are wrong does not equate to you being right. I have responded to your logic with my own logic but you just keep coming back to 'it means this and I don't have to defend that.' Edit: We probably should both just drop it. We seem to be arguing around in circles. There is nothing wrong with preferring Ulfric. It is a game, after all. We just disagree about it. Nothing wrong with that either. Edited August 3, 2015 by kimmera Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elimc Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Okay, if you want to. I honestly just do this for fun, not because I actually care about which side people pick in Skyrim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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