Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[CaptainPatch]

 

That temple to Boethiah might look like it's less than a quarter of a mile away from Windhelm from our point of view, but in game scale that's probably (roughly) equal to five or more miles away. Given that it's pretty far up the mountain to boot, that is a heck of a long way from Windhelm. And likely not really visible (or even widely known.)

Only 5 miles away is practically the "suburbs"! To be in a 'remote rural area", you would have to be at least 20 miles from the nearest community, and entirely out of sight. (Which rules out both Azura's and Meridia's temples.) Any close by road traffic that can catch a glimpse of the cursed Daedric temples would undoubtedly feed the rumor mill once they got to the city. If the people are sooooo hostile towards daedra worship as some people contend, it wouldn't be long before the people were breaking out the pitchforks and torches.

[kimmera]

 

 

That temple to Boethiah might look like it's less than a quarter of a mile away from Windhelm from our point of view, but in game scale that's probably (roughly) equal to five or more miles away. Given that it's pretty far up the mountain to boot, that is a heck of a long way from Windhelm. And likely not really visible (or even widely known.)

Only 5 miles away is practically the "suburbs"! To be in a 'remote rural area", you would have to be at least 20 miles from the nearest community, and entirely out of sight. (Which rules out both Azura's and Meridia's temples.) Any close by road traffic that can catch a glimpse of the cursed Daedric temples would undoubtedly feed the rumor mill once they got to the city. If the people are sooooo hostile towards daedra worship as some people contend, it wouldn't be long before the people were breaking out the pitchforks and torches.

 

 

Oh please.... there are giant lairs that close to cities. And undead filled ruins even closer to cities. People only break out the pitchforks in Skyrim over things actually in their towns.

[MidbossVyers]

Aren't we getting a bit off topic, anyway? Regardless, for me, other than my Nord character, my Redguard and Orc characters both joined the Stormcloaks because, in the past, the only way for either race to negotiate with the Empire was on the corpses of Imperial officers. Cyrus the Redguard helped form the Treaty of Stros M'Kai by killing 3 of the Empire's greatest officers, Lord Richton, Dram, and Nahfahlaar (possibly also N'Gasta, depending on whether or not the N'Gasta/Richton Alliance is officially recognized), and the only way that Orcs in Daggerfall gained racial equality is possibly via threatening the Empire with a giant time-bending robot.

[kimmera]

Aren't we getting a bit off topic, anyway? Regardless, for me, other than my Nord character, my Redguard and Orc characters both joined the Stormcloaks because, in the past, the only way for either race to negotiate with the Empire was on the corpses of Imperial officers. Cyrus the Redguard helped form the Treaty of Stros M'Kai by killing 3 of the Empire's greatest officers, Lord Richton, Dram, and Nahfahlaar (possibly also N'Gasta, depending on whether or not the N'Gasta/Richton Alliance is officially recognized), and the only way that Orcs in Daggerfall gained racial equality is possibly via threatening the Empire with a giant time-bending robot.

 

Other than the White Gold Concordat, hasn't the Empire been mostly hands off Skyrim though? They don't normally keep that level of presence there. Tullius was brought in from Cyrodiil due to the civil war. Tullius is a general not a politician and there is no Imperial office or political representative in the Blue Palace.

 

At least a couple NPC's comment that trade with the Empire is good for Skyrim, and there are no obvious complaints about undo tariffs or questionable trade practices. Skyrim is mostly self-governing and the Jarls are all Nords, so there isn't really any question of anti-Nord prejudice when it comes to the direct representation.

 

So it really comes down to 'How dare you lose a war you didn't start!' and 'How dare that loss have consequences to us!'

 

I just don't see that as reason to attempt to abandon ship, particularly since ending Talos worship was a key goal of the AD, meaning that if Skyrim returns to open worship before being ready for war with the AD, then it could end very badly indeed.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

It comes down to "Why would you surrender a war that you had just practically won and make all the negative terms of the peace treaty only effect your provinces, and have none of them (or maybe just a few of them, but nothing huge) effect you." Seriously. Hammerfell loses half of its land, Skyrim loses religious freedom, and Cyrodil loses money. Which they can always take from their provinces if they run out.

 

And the AD can't just attack Skyrim, since there are mountains in the way, not to mention all of Cyrodil. Sure, the Empire surrendered, but they wouldn't let the AD bring a whole army through Cyrodil. Hammerfell and High Rock probably wouldn't let the AD's navy sail through their waters, so they couldn't attack Skyrim without winning another war first. Skyrim will have plenty of time to prepare for a war.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

It comes down to "Why would you surrender a war that you had just practically won and make all the negative terms of the peace treaty only effect your provinces, and have none of them (or maybe just a few of them, but nothing huge) effect you." Seriously. Hammerfell loses half of its land, Skyrim loses religious freedom, and Cyrodil loses money. Which they can always take from their provinces if they run out.

 

And the AD can't just attack Skyrim, since there are mountains in the way, not to mention all of Cyrodil. Sure, the Empire surrendered, but they wouldn't let the AD bring a whole army through Cyrodil. Hammerfell and High Rock probably wouldn't let the AD's navy sail through their waters, so they couldn't attack Skyrim without winning another war first. Skyrim will have plenty of time to prepare for a war.

 

Argh... "Practically won" is another thing you keep saying, but you keep forgetting that the Empire lost almost everything they had taking back Imperial City. They threw everything they could into that battle, won, but lost most of what they had doing so. Even if the AD lost most of their active troops too the Empire had no troops to counter-invade with and Cyrodiil itself had been ravaged while Summerset Isle was untouched.

 

Ulfric himself was a prisoner of the AD before the end of the battle, so how in blazes would he know what the real situation was? Besides, we know from the Thalmor dossier on him that they fed him false information to make it seem to Ulfric that he personally and thus the Empire had done better than they really did. The only logical reason for doing so would be to convince Ulfric that you are right and the Empire signed too easily.

 

If the Empire are not ready for war (and any assistance from Skyrim being delayed or prevented would seriously reduce readiness) then any new offensive on the part of the AD becomes considerably easier. Cyrodiil would be at least initially without both Hammerfell and Skyrim, so the Empire would be a lot less ready. If Hammerfell doesn't support the Empire, then even if Skyrim does side with the Empire the two would have less resources to draw on than at the start of the Great War. Why would Skyrim mobilize any better this time than it did last time?

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

But you keep forgetting the AD had lost most of their troops, so many that they couldn't invade one ravaged province, so how would they succeed at fighting two?

 

Ulfric could have read the "Great War" book, and he would know pretty much all that we know. And Ulfric is not the only one who thinks the Empire surrendered too easily, the author of the "Great War" book recognizes that that is a valid point of view.

 

If the AD declared war on the Empire, I think both Hammerfell and Skyrim would help, just to fight the AD. They may not like the Empire, but they know they will have a better chance of beating the AD 3 on 1. And last time Skyrim did send a whole legion to support the Empire.

[CaptainPatch]

 

@Kimmera

 

Ulfric could have read the "Great War" book, and he would know pretty much all that we know. And Ulfric is not the only one who thinks the Empire surrendered too easily, the author of the "Great War" book recognizes that that is a valid point of view.

 

If the AD declared war on the Empire, I think both Hammerfell and Skyrim would help, just to fight the AD. They may not like the Empire, but they know they will have a better chance of beating the AD 3 on 1. And last time Skyrim did send a whole legion to support the Empire.

Once a conclusion has been reached, it's very easy to say, "If only we hadn't stopped!" You can paint whatever Most Optimal Outcome and say, "This is what we could have had!" But what about the possibility of the Worst Possible outcome? After Capital City, BOTH the AD and the Empire were in sad shape... and it's hard to say which was in the worse shape. Apparently the decisionmakers on the scene -- Titus Meade II and his remaining commanders and advisers concluded it was the Empire that was in worse shape. (Can you imagine any general worth his salt advising surrender after winning a decisive battle? So it was a Pyrrhic Victory, the AD lost worse! But like two boxers that have just gone 20 rounds, if forced to, they will go another 20 rounds, or until one boxer goes to the morgue and the other goes to the hospital and the ICU.

 

Keep in mind that the Empire was looking at what was left for the entire Empire. EVERYTHING that was available from Skyrim was already there (what was left of it. The Redguards were entirely engrossed in what was happening in their home province. (Not sure what was happening with the Bretons.) Cyrodiil, being the location where most of the fighting and AD Occupation had been was thoroughly trashed. In contrast, the AD still had whatever forces they had stationed in Summerset Isle, Valenwood, and Elswyr. And those locations still had uninterrupted logistical supply lines still in place and unfettered. Fresh forces. The Empire tossing in the towel when it did offered the best terms they were likely to get. Pressing the fight only stood to worsen their bargaining position.

 

And you aren't calculating the odds correctly. It's NOT 3-to-1; it's 4-to-3. Cyrodiil + Highrock + (maybe) Hammerfell + (maybe) Skyrim. Versus. In contrast, the AD would have Summerset Isle + Valenwood + Elswyr. Also factor in that Cyrodiil, Hammerfell, and Skyrim (after a civil war) would be in poor condition after all the fighting that had taken place in those provinces.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

But you keep forgetting the AD had lost most of their troops, so many that they couldn't invade one ravaged province, so how would they succeed at fighting two?

 

Ulfric could have read the "Great War" book, and he would know pretty much all that we know. And Ulfric is not the only one who thinks the Empire surrendered too easily, the author of the "Great War" book recognizes that that is a valid point of view.

 

If the AD declared war on the Empire, I think both Hammerfell and Skyrim would help, just to fight the AD. They may not like the Empire, but they know they will have a better chance of beating the AD 3 on 1. And last time Skyrim did send a whole legion to support the Empire.

 

I mentioned this earlier but my point seems to be forgotten already. Hammerfell was not the AD's primary objective. The Empire was. Their initial objective was to invade Hammerfell and take the ports. This was obviously intended to set up a later invasion of Cyrodiil, both cutting off a flank and allowing the AD to flank.

 

When the Empire proved far weaker than they expected, there was no further reason to hold Hammerfell. Moreover the treaty with Hammerfell was an AD win, since it meant the Empire would no longer get support from Hammerfell in any future war with the AD.

 

As for "The Great War" you really should re-read things before you cite them.

 

"Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year."

 

 

- The Great War

 

The author says that the Redguard believe that the Empire surrendered too easily, but the author says "The truth of that assertion can, of course, never be known."

 

The Redguard conclusion is based on their success, and ignores the losses during the Battle of the Red Ring. It also assumes that the AD were priortizing Hammerfell, i.e. had allocated their full strength and had left nothing on the Cyrodiil border.

 

If Hammerfell was so effective, I ask again, why did they sign a treaty? Why didn't they push on to topple the AD government and replace it with a more peaceful regime?

Edited August 14, 2015 by kimmera

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Hammerfell was the AD's main objective, until Cyrodil proved weaker than expected. But it continued to be a secondary objective with a whole army dedicated to taking it. But at the begging the invasion of Cyrodil was intended to help the invasion of Hammerfell, not the other way around.

 

The Empire did take extremely heavy casualties yes, but "In the end, the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed."

 

Yes, the author says that saying the Empire surrendered to easily is a valid position, even if it is not necessarily correct.

 

You act like the AD has an infinite supply of troops, you do realize that the AD lost many more troops than the Empire did, right? If the Empire had not surrendered, some troops from Hammerfell would come up to Cyrodil to reinforce the Empire, and the AD would likely have to do the same thing.

 

Hammerfell didn't attack the AD because while they were able to drive the AD out, they couldn't conquer it without help, which they didn't have. But the treaty they signed led to the complete "withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell", so they got what they wanted.