Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[CaptainPatch]

 

...but during that time they were still trying to capture Hammerfell. And even when they threw all of their reserves at it, they still were defeated.

 

Nurelion still owns a shop in Windhelm, even though he is an elf.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

How could flat out losing a war ever help the AD in any way? I could understand if they were allowed to maintain some sort of presence in Hammerfell, like they do in Cyrodil, but that didn't happen. They were forced to withdraw after five years of bloody fighting. If they were going to let the Redguards win, why didn't they do it before they lost hundreds, if not thousands, of mer in Hammerfell? The Empire still has a strong army, and I can see why the AD is waiting to attack it, but as far as we know the Crowns and Forbears are getting along in Hammerfell, so why would the AD wait and let them rebuild unless the AD needs to do some recovering of its own. You keep saying that elves live longer than men, but a side effect of this is that they will reproduce slower, which means they would need much longer to recover than the Empire or Cyrodil.

First, what is stated is that the fighting continued for five years. There is no statement that says that the Thalmor were actively trying to capture ALL of Hammerfell. They already had control of the southern ports except Hegathe, which was pretty much the "prime cut" from Hammerfell. And as kimmera pointed out, there isn't even one account that states that the Thalmor reinforced Hammerfell at all. There is also a distinct difference between "defeat" and "strategic withdrawal". (More about that later.)

 

"Flat out losing a war"? They certainly didn't lose the Great War with the Empire. They had every one of their demands met, and then some. As for Hammerfell, there wasn't any fighting in the desert mentioned (unless Skaven is built in the desert). They chased the retreating Imperials across the desert, fought a battle near Skaven, captured the city, and then withdrew back to the southern ports, unopposed. It's never mentioned just what the loss ration was between Thalmor and Redguards. It could be that while the Thalmor were losing hundreds, the Redguards were losing thousands. Bleeding the Redguards that much could be construed as being a worthwhile investment.

 

It's never really mentioned just what kind of condition the Thalmor-occupied portion of Hammerfell was in after the Thalmor departed. It may very well be that the Thalmor spent those additional five years methodically dismantling the infrastructure of southern Hammerfell while also exporting EVERYTHING of value to Summerset Isle. Aside from some Alikr bounty-hunters -- not government Intelligence operatives, just mercenaries -- chasing down a Redguard collaborator, you really don't hear about Hammerfell doing much of anything on the world stage. If after several decades, Hammerfell was still repairing the damage from the Thalmor Occupation, it would explain why it has taken such a low profile in world events. It would also mean that if Great War, Part II were to kick off withing the next decade or so, Hammerfell would not be in any condition to participate in any meaningful fashion.

 

Do keep in mind that a longer lifespan amounts to greater experience. Just off the cuff, which would expect to be the more powerful: a 100-year-old human mage, or a 500-year-old elf mage? Even if the elf was only 200 years old, he would have had a LOT more experience to enhance his power. PLUS while the human at 100 years has grown physically feeble, while the elf is "in the prime of Life". [LOTS of elves in the game relate anecdotes of what they doing centuries ago.

 

And lastly, as for Nurelion owning a shop in Windhelm, it is pointed out in several places in the game that any worthwhile city in Skyrim MUST have an Alchemy shop. If it happens that Nurelion was the only or most renown alchemist to want to open that shop -- and Nurelion's reputation is hinted at by the fact that his apprentice came all the way from Cyrodiil to study under Nurelion -- it would be foolish of Ulfric (or, more likely, Ulfric's father) to NOT have Nurelion as Windhelm's resident Alchemist. Racist doesn't necessarily mean NOT pragmatic.

[MidbossVyers]

About that, I know that many elven mages use magic to further lengthen their life without becoming undead, such as the Telvanni, but can human mages do the same?

[Elimc]

@Kimmera/CaptainPatch

 

You said the AD purposely lost in Hammerfell, and I asked you why they wouldn't simply leave immediately, or at least within a year, if they never planned on winning. It is a bad idea to commit thousands of soldiers to an objective you don't actually want. They would have lost thousands of mer defending land that, according to you, they didn't even want. They didn't need five years to burn all the cities they had to the ground, if they just wanted to cripple Hammerfell they could have done it in months. And the long trip to the Summerset Isles would probably make it worthless to transport most goods, because it would cost so much to ship them.

 

I said they lost the war in Hammerfell, which they did. I did not say that they lost the Great War.

 

They could have moved them out before the battle, or the Emperor could have ordered some soldiers to carry them as they fled the city, or Lord Naarfiin might have wanted to keep them all in the city where he could study them.

 

Elves would have longer to train, but since they spend most of their time learning magic, they can still be defeated by a nord with an axe and a shield. Especially if he is trained to block magic with his shield.

 

Where is it said that all cities need alchemy shops? I mean, I know potions are useful but wouldn't it be possible to buy them from another alchemist and take them to Windhelm? And neither of you have responded to any of the dialoge from Belyn Hlaalu.

[CaptainPatch]

@Kimmera/CaptainPatch

 

You said the AD purposely lost in Hammerfell, and I asked you why they wouldn't simply leave immediately, or at least within a year, if they never planned on winning. It is a bad idea to commit thousands of soldiers to an objective you don't actually want. They would have lost thousands of mer defending land that, according to you, they didn't even want. They didn't need five years to burn all the cities they had to the ground, if they just wanted to cripple Hammerfell they could have done it in months. And the long trip to the Summerset Isles would probably make it worthless to transport most goods, because it would cost so much to ship them.

 

I said they lost the war in Hammerfell, which they did. I did not say that they lost the Great War.

 

Elves would have longer to train, but since they spend most of their time learning magic, they can still be defeated by a nord with an axe and a shield. Especially if he is trained to block magic with his shield.

 

Where is it said that all cities need alchemy shops? I mean, I know potions are useful but wouldn't it be possible to buy them from another alchemist and take them to Windhelm? And neither of you have responded to any of the dialoge from Belyn Hlaalu.

You aren't big on strategy, are you? "Winning" is not always ONLY about taking and holding real estate. What is it that the Hammerfell southern ports had that the Thalmor would want? Probably something maritime, since we are talking about about ports. LOTS of Merchant Marine, perhaps? Warehouses full of goods maybe? Maybe they represented MAJOR competition to Thalmor shipping lines. Maybe they provided too great of a transport capacity that the Empire might exploit someday to assault Summerset Isle.

 

I bet Hammerfell doesn't have anywhere near the shipping capacity or wealth it had before the AD invaded. And with 5 years of effort, I wouldn't be surprised if every potential Redguard port on the south coast hasn't been ruined by Thalmor sabotage. If you burn a city, it can just be rebuilt. But fill the harbor with sunken ships filled with rocks, and it may take decades before that harbor is even marginally useful again.

 

And don't even begin think that goods and resource transport that took months couldn't be profitable. In Real Life, the East India Company is a prime example of just how wrong you are.

 

Not "would have to train longer"; it's more correct to say "be able to train longer". MUCH longer. Like centuries more training. For BOTH Magic and Martial Combat. Imagine Conan at 200 in a 500 year lifespan. Or an entire regiment of Gandalfs the White. While your "potent" Nord fighter is bringing up his shield, the experienced elf mage is turning him into an ice sculpture. Conan The Barbarian only won against wizards because he had the scriptwriters on his side.

 

Alchemy shops attract customers, of EVERY category. EVERYBODY needs potions. Those customers inevitably spend money in the city where they get their potions. (Inns, crafts, etc.) Importing potions in bulk involves a significant price markup. And what is in stock depends on Inventory on hand. In contrast, an alchemist in residence can whip up whatever potion is needed, on the spot. At a cheaper cost, because there are no transport fees. (Or shipments lost to bandits or Forsworn.) And a really talented alchemist can attract customers from further away for the same reason that people prefer the product of Masters more than the product of Journeymen or Apprentices. ("You get what you pay for.") All around, it's just too useful to have an alchemist in residence. And the more famous the alchemist, the better it is for the city.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera/CaptainPatch

 

You said the AD purposely lost in Hammerfell, and I asked you why they wouldn't simply leave immediately, or at least within a year, if they never planned on winning. It is a bad idea to commit thousands of soldiers to an objective you don't actually want. They would have lost thousands of mer defending land that, according to you, they didn't even want. They didn't need five years to burn all the cities they had to the ground, if they just wanted to cripple Hammerfell they could have done it in months. And the long trip to the Summerset Isles would probably make it worthless to transport most goods, because it would cost so much to ship them.

 

I said they lost the war in Hammerfell, which they did. I did not say that they lost the Great War.

 

They could have moved them out before the battle, or the Emperor could have ordered some soldiers to carry them as they fled the city, or Lord Naarfiin might have wanted to keep them all in the city where he could study them.

 

Elves would have longer to train, but since they spend most of their time learning magic, they can still be defeated by a nord with an axe and a shield. Especially if he is trained to block magic with his shield.

 

Where is it said that all cities need alchemy shops? I mean, I know potions are useful but wouldn't it be possible to buy them from another alchemist and take them to Windhelm? And neither of you have responded to any of the dialoge from Belyn Hlaalu.

 

You are thinking of it as multiple wars. It wasn't really. The AD went to war with the Empire, of which Hammerfell was a part. They succeeded in getting Hammerfell to leave the Empire. How is that a loss?

 

They never needed to conquer Hammerfell to win there.

 

Alchemy shops are the closest thing they have to hospitals, and are arguably at least as effective. Badly injured? Here, drink this! Good as new and no side effects! Seriously, shunning an alchemy shop would be a bad idea.

 

There is no record of the scrolls being saved. None. It is possible that they were recaptured, but it seems far more likely that the elves would have wanted to study them on their home turf where their top research wizards are. And not all Elves study magic. Some do dedicate their lives to conventional weapons or to other endeavors.

[Elimc]

@CaptainPatch

 

I know destroying the ports and cities in Hammerfell would help the AD, but it doesn't take five years to do that. Anyway, after 20 years Hammerfell would have been able to rebuild, so it would have all been for nothing. The Redguards have had decades, and they could have just moved the city to another location that was not destroyed. Even with five years, the AD couldn't have destroyed the whole coastline. The AD did defeat the Cyrodil, but they didn't defeat Hammerfell.

 

Yes, some goods would be profitable, but does it take five years to ransack a city and throw everything that is profitable on a boat? No.

 

Elves are not necessarily better fighters than men. And while your mage is readying his frost spell, which the nord is resistant to anyway, the nord is smashing him with his shield, and then proceeding to lop his head off. And there is a in-game book that details strategies for fighting mages, I just can't remember what it is called.

 

There is no record of the scrolls at all, nothing about the being captured, saved, or hidden. There is nothing at all.

 

And are you ever going to reply to my quotes from Beyln Hlaalu? If Ulfric just lets Nurelion have an alchemy shop because he wants an alchemy shop, that makes sense, but why does he let Beyln own a farm?

[kimmera]

@CaptainPatch

 

I know destroying the ports and cities in Hammerfell would help the AD, but it doesn't take five years to do that. Anyway, after 20 years Hammerfell would have been able to rebuild, so it would have all been for nothing. The Redguards have had decades, and they could have just moved the city to another location that was not destroyed. Even with five years, the AD couldn't have destroyed the whole coastline. The AD did defeat the Cyrodil, but they didn't defeat Hammerfell.

 

Yes, some goods would be profitable, but does it take five years to ransack a city and throw everything that is profitable on a boat? No.

 

Elves are not necessarily better fighters than men. And while your mage is readying his frost spell, which the nord is resistant to anyway, the nord is smashing him with his shield, and then proceeding to lop his head off. And there is a in-game book that details strategies for fighting mages, I just can't remember what it is called.

 

There is no record of the scrolls at all, nothing about the being captured, saved, or hidden. There is nothing at all.

 

And are you ever going to reply to my quotes from Beyln Hlaalu? If Ulfric just lets Nurelion have an alchemy shop because he wants an alchemy shop, that makes sense, but why does he let Beyln own a farm?

 

"Just moved the city" just like that?

 

Look, I'll try this again. Hammerfell was part of the EMPIRE. Cyodill was part of the EMPIRE. It was not two separate wars, one against Hammerfell and one against Cyrodill. It was ONE war against the EMPIRE, the capital of which is in Cyrodiil.

 

I responded to your comments regarding Beyln. Her farm is outside the city, not inside the city. The Argonians are allowed to exist too as long as they stay outside the city. Of course Beyln has a different perspective. There is no room for a farm inside the city even if she wanted to move her farm there. As long as she keeps to her place, of course her hard work is respected.

 

As for 'no record of the scrolls at all' .....

 

Meanwhile, however, the capital fell to the invaders and the infamous Sack of the Imperial City began. The Imperial Palace was burned, the White-Gold Tower itself looted, and all manner of atrocities carried out by the vengeful elves on the innocent populace.

 

 

I am sure you are right. The AD looted the WGT but felt the Elder Scrolls unimportant so they obviously completely ignored them.

 

You can't even acknowledge that Hammerfell was part of the Empire at the start of the war, so it isn't surprising that you have trouble acknowledging that Skyrim is also part of the Empire rather than some horribly picked on neighboring state.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

I meant to say move the docks, not move the city. Even if the harbor was destroyed beyond use, they could just build a new one that was still close to the city.

 

The AD won the Great War, which ended when the Emperor signed the White-Gold Concordant. Then they fought against just Hammerfell, and Hammerfell won. Again, there was a war against the Empire, and immediately after that there was a war against Hammerfell.

 

Beyln Hlaalu lives in the Grey Quarter, owns a farm outside the city, and he thinks the Dunmer are to blame for being so poor. Belyn does live in the city, though, he just also owns a farm outside it, so he does know how the Dunmer live, and probably had to work his way up from being poor like the rest of them.

 

Do you see the word scolls anywhere in that quote? The Tower was looted, yes, but what if the scrolls were moved, hidden, or recaptured?

[CaptainPatch]

@CaptainPatch

 

I know destroying the ports and cities in Hammerfell would help the AD, but it doesn't take five years to do that. Anyway, after 20 years Hammerfell would have been able to rebuild, so it would have all been for nothing. The Redguards have had decades, and they could have just moved the city to another location that was not destroyed. Even with five years, the AD couldn't have destroyed the whole coastline. The AD did defeat the Cyrodil, but they didn't defeat Hammerfell.

 

Yes, some goods would be profitable, but does it take five years to ransack a city and throw everything that is profitable on a boat? No.

 

Elves are not necessarily better fighters than men. And while your mage is readying his frost spell, which the nord is resistant to anyway, the nord is smashing him with his shield, and then proceeding to lop his head off. And there is a in-game book that details strategies for fighting mages, I just can't remember what it is caport sites.lled.

 

There is no record of the scrolls at all, nothing about the being captured, saved, or hidden. There is nothing at all.

 

And are you ever going to reply to my quotes from Beyln Hlaalu? If Ulfric just lets Nurelion have an alchemy shop because he wants an alchemy shop, that makes sense, but why does he let Beyln own a farm?

This lack of strategic insight is becoming humorous.

 

It's not necessary to "destroy the whole coastline" to destroy Hammerfell's maritime capacity. Just ruin all of the likely safe harbors and anchorages. Just drop enough BIG rocks at the entrance to those locations and any incoming vessel is likely to rip open its hull trying to enter. But it takes time to gather and transport those rocks into position at not just the active ports, but also the potential port sites.

 

Also during that period, the Thalmor could be depleting all of the active Redguard mines in southern Hammerfell. Using conscripted Redguard laborers.

 

Essentially, after the Redguards get southern Hammerfell back, they have to rebuild everything from scratch. Resource exploitation, communities, harbors, mines, and even the population. And to do so, the Redguard government would have to pour most of whatever little Treasury they have left after the war into the recovery effort -- which is guaranteed to be a llllooooonnnngggg, slow process. With no Foreign Aid from anywhere outside of Hammerfell. [That's the big drawback of no longer being in the Empire. While in the Empire, the provinces outside of Cyrodiil might have been treated like second-class citizens, but at least they got something in the way of Imperial investment. But now that Hammerfell is out of the Empire, it doesn't even get that.]

 

"Everything of value" includes production output. That's an ongoing process.

 

Men are not necessarily better fighters than elves. Then again, men don't have as long to hone their skills. [Your description of the battle between Nord fighter and elf wizard reads like a Conan The Barbarian cartoon. A really bad one. You entirely ignore the fact that wizard spells are ranged attacks, versus your Nord's melee weapon. And that "resistant" =/= "impervious". Resistant to damage doesn't amount to much when being hit with a one megaton bomb-equivalent.]

 

One of the Nord farmers outside of Windhelm describes just how hard it is to eke out a harvest from the rocky soil around Windhelm. LOTS of hard work for little harvest. Understandably, most people have no interest in being Windhelm farmers. But the need for crops remains. So quite likely, Ulfric is willing to allow anyone, of any race, to do farming, just to add more produce for the city.

 

Do you see the word scolls anywhere in that quote? The Tower was looted, yes, but what if the scrolls were moved, hidden, or recaptured?

 

I am having a hard time trying not to laugh. It says that the WGTower was "looted", as in "took everything of value". That would include the Elder Scrolls. What did you expect, a detailed inventory of everything that was taken?

 

Edited August 21, 2015 by CaptainPatch

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

I meant to say move the docks, not move the city. Even if the harbor was destroyed beyond use, they could just build a new one that was still close to the city.

 

The AD won the Great War, which ended when the Emperor signed the White-Gold Concordant. Then they fought against just Hammerfell, and Hammerfell won. Again, there was a war against the Empire, and immediately after that there was a war against Hammerfell.

 

Beyln Hlaalu lives in the Grey Quarter, owns a farm outside the city, and he thinks the Dunmer are to blame for being so poor. Belyn does live in the city, though, he just also owns a farm outside it, so he does know how the Dunmer live, and probably had to work his way up from being poor like the rest of them.

 

Do you see the word scolls anywhere in that quote? The Tower was looted, yes, but what if the scrolls were moved, hidden, or recaptured?

 

Doesn't that depend on available wood? If you are citing real world concepts then trees actually are no longer there after being cut down and used.

 

Wow, seriously? The AD didn't attack Hammerfell after the WGC was signed. Hammerfell declared independence and attacked the AD. The AD didn't reinforce and simply seem to have withdrawn. That is the opposite of them fighting a war with Hammerfell. That is avoiding fighting an unnecessary war with Hammerfell.

 

If they had attacked Hammerfell after the WGC was signed, then it would have broken the treaty they had just signed. It would have made no sense whatsoever.

 

Beylyn's 'work' is all outside the city and although he lives in the city he lives in the 'Grey' quarter. As I said, he has no problems because he minds his place like a 'good' little Dunmer.

 

There is no mention that the scrolls weren't eaten by a flying spaghetti monster either. Guess they are all gone from the world now.....