Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[fraquar]

Hammerfell didn't declare independence, the Empire renounced Hammerfell. That kind of thing happens when you negotiate terms of a treaty to save your own bacon that you know Hammerfell has zero intention of ever honoring. You dissolve the relationship and wash your hands clean.

[Elimc]

Supposing the AD did stick around in Hammerfell just to drop big rocks in the ocean or mine up all the mines, they could not feasibly have destroyed every possible harbor along the coast or mined out all the ore in just five years. The Redguards might have to build new ports and mines, but they would. Even if there was not enough wood in Hammerfell to build them, they could just trade with Cyrodil to get it. They have had 21 years to do rebuild so far, but we have no idea how well its going. It could already be done, or they could be falling apart like Cyrodil.

 

As far as we know, men and elves are pretty much equally matched at fighting. There have been no sources to contradict this, and it makes logical sense too. Sure, mages are powerful, but their spells are less effective than arrows, and even the master spells, which only a few master wizards would know, are not any better than a catapult.

 

The war in Hammerfell never seemed to really stop, it just happened that the AD was put on the defensive right before the Battle of the Red Ring. They had stopped advancing without completing their objective, and were about to be pushed back. Then the Empire surrendered, and the Redguards pushed back the whole AD by themselves.

 

Beyln Hlaalu doesn't complain about the ground being frozen, so maybe he has found a way to get crops to grow anyway or maybe he just has a better plot of land. He does not seem to "mind his place like a 'good' little dunmer", instead, he has a nord employee who has to work all day for him.

 

There is no mention of the Scrolls at all, so we have no idea what happened to them. They could have been captured, hidden, taken from the city when it looked like the AD might capture it, taken from the city when the Emperor fled the city, or any number of other things. We have no idea what really happened though, so all this is pointless.

[kimmera]

Hammerfell didn't declare independence, the Empire renounced Hammerfell. That kind of thing happens when you negotiate terms of a treaty to save your own bacon that you know Hammerfell has zero intention of ever honoring. You dissolve the relationship and wash your hands clean.

 

You are technically correct. Rather than formally declare independence they simply completely ignored the treaty and kept fighting. Not sure in what way that isn't independence....

[kimmera]

Supposing the AD did stick around in Hammerfell just to drop big rocks in the ocean or mine up all the mines, they could not feasibly have destroyed every possible harbor along the coast or mined out all the ore in just five years. The Redguards might have to build new ports and mines, but they would. Even if there was not enough wood in Hammerfell to build them, they could just trade with Cyrodil to get it. They have had 21 years to do rebuild so far, but we have no idea how well its going. It could already be done, or they could be falling apart like Cyrodil.

 

As far as we know, men and elves are pretty much equally matched at fighting. There have been no sources to contradict this, and it makes logical sense too. Sure, mages are powerful, but their spells are less effective than arrows, and even the master spells, which only a few master wizards would know, are not any better than a catapult.

 

The war in Hammerfell never seemed to really stop, it just happened that the AD was put on the defensive right before the Battle of the Red Ring. They had stopped advancing without completing their objective, and were about to be pushed back. Then the Empire surrendered, and the Redguards pushed back the whole AD by themselves.

 

Beyln Hlaalu doesn't complain about the ground being frozen, so maybe he has found a way to get crops to grow anyway or maybe he just has a better plot of land. He does not seem to "mind his place like a 'good' little dunmer", instead, he has a nord employee who has to work all day for him.

 

There is no mention of the Scrolls at all, so we have no idea what happened to them. They could have been captured, hidden, taken from the city when it looked like the AD might capture it, taken from the city when the Emperor fled the city, or any number of other things. We have no idea what really happened though, so all this is pointless.

 

Again you have this 'anything less than a completely victory is a loss' theory. Shipping wood long distances isn't easy or cheap in modern times.

 

We know that men and elves are equals on the battlefield? Based on what? You claim that men reproduce vastly faster, so human populations must , per your theories, be much higher. Yet somehow Sommerset Isles isn't overrun by humans. Morrowind isn't overrun by Nords.

 

In Hammerfell, the Empire surrendered, the Redguards said 'Forget this' and kept fighting, forcing the Empire to kick them out. The AD then withdrew. Again Hammerfell is no longer part of the Empire. I ask you again. How is that not an AD victory?

 

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Farmer_(Skyrim) Bodyrn

 

• "I was born and raised in Skyrim, but the Nords treat us like dirt."

 

 

As for the Elder Scrolls, Imperial forces had to fight their way out of the city, so it seems highly unlikely that they were escorting wagons full of elder scrolls. The AD subsequently held the city for several months during which time the tower was looted. If the scrolls were still there after the tower was recaptured, 'looting' really wouldn't apply. Besides, you don't normally loot somewhere you are planning on holding unless the loot is being shipped somewhere. "We looted the tower, sir! What should we do with all these Elder Scrolls?" .... "Good work men! Now put them in the tower so we can study them"....... your scenario makes no sense.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

At the beginning of the war, the AD invaded Hammerfell, and was trying to take it over. At the end, they were completely driven out. Not sure how this works out as a victory for the AD, but sure, they won. And if it is too hard to get wood down to Southern Hammerfell, then why isn't it too hard for the AD to ship goods from Hammerfell to Summerset? You can ship lumber pretty cheaply across half a province if you have boats, which the Redguards do.

 

We know men and elves are about equal because if they weren't, someone or something would have told us that. If elves live longer and reproduce slower than humans, both of them could have about the same number of people. The longer lifespan would offset having less children.

 

The AD did not withdraw, they were forced out, or at least didn't have the troops left for it to be reasonable to keep trying to hold Hammerfell. If they were going to withdraw, they probably would have done it years earlier and saved everyone the trouble of fighting over land they didn't want.

 

So, one Dunmer thinks the Nords are racist, and one thinks they aren't, and one other elf thinks they aren't.

[CaptainPatch]

@Kimmera

 

At the beginning of the war, the AD invaded Hammerfell, and was trying to take it over. At the end, they were completely driven out. Not sure how this works out as a victory for the AD, but sure, they won. And if it is too hard to get wood down to Southern Hammerfell, then why isn't it too hard for the AD to ship goods from Hammerfell to Summerset? You can ship lumber pretty cheaply across half a province if you have boats, which the Redguards do.

 

We know men and elves are about equal because if they weren't, someone or something would have told us that. If elves live longer and reproduce slower than humans, both of them could have about the same number of people. The longer lifespan would offset having less children.

 

The AD did not withdraw, they were forced out, or at least didn't have the troops left for it to be reasonable to keep trying to hold Hammerfell. If they were going to withdraw, they probably would have done it years earlier and saved everyone the trouble of fighting over land they didn't want.

 

So, one Dunmer thinks the Nords are racist, and one thinks they aren't, and one other elf thinks they aren't.

I think it's your absolute insistence that the Redguards "drove the AD out" that is irritating. From the UESPwiki: After five years, the war ends in a stalemate with the signing of the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai See that word "stalemate"? That's when neither side wins. The fighting stopped and apparently the AD concluded there wasn't anything left worth sticking around for. They were NOT chased onto their ships. They did NOT have to fight a rearguard action to make good their escape. They took their time and packed up and simply sailed away, unopposed, with no need to defend themselves from vengeful Redguards. If _I_ choose to leave, it is not the same as someone having forced me to leave. Your descriptions make it sound like the AD's departure was like the Persians fleeing after losing the Battle of Marathon. In fact, there was NO climactic battle like the Battle of the Red Ring. Just an agreement between the combatants that continuing warfare wouldn't benefit either side.

 

What Hammerfell ships do you speak of? All those that the AD captured when they captured most of the Redguard ports, minus Hegathe? Those most likely were used by the Thalmor to transport loot and their personnel back to Alinor.

 

There is a harsh Economic reality that you are completely ignoring. To purchase materials to rebuild an entire nation, it takes money. After having had literally half of their cities Occupied and looted, three of its five ports Occupied and suffered who-knows-what for five years of abuse, where is Hammerfell going to get the money? Not the Empire; relations were strained after Hammerfell got dumped by the WGC. Certainly not the AD. Who is left to be charitable to a proud but impoverished independent Hammerfell? No one. EVERYTHING that was destroyed or damaged in Hammerfell's struggle with the AD has to be rebuilt by Hammerfell itself, from scratch. First MUST be to restore food production. (Starving workmen tend not to be very productive. And they have a nasty tendency to die of starvation when they don't get fed.) Just getting the agriculture and fisheries back up to speed enough to feed the population would take years. Then there is all of Hammerfell's industries that will need to be rebuilt in what had been the Occupied zones. And relying entirely on their own resources, there WILL be a large manpower shortage, given all the casualties from warfare, disease, and starvation. It's unlikely that there will be hordes of immigrants wanting to move to Hammerfell, given its likely condition after so many years of war. And the limited amount of money left in circulation.

 

However many years after the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai, the reason that so little is heard about what is happening in Hammerfell probably is because Hammerfell is still repairing the damage from that war.

 

BTW, while it IS mentioned that elves do live considerably longer than humans, it does NOT mention anywhere that they reproduce at a slower rate. That's an assumption you (and to be fair, probably most people) have made.

 

If you have ever been in the Deep South and witnessed really deep-seated racism up close, you will have inevitably seen a significant number of African-Americans that "just want to get by with no trouble". They are referred to as "Uncle Toms", blacks that are VERY respectful of whites, and even agree that the root of race problems is because of "uppity black folks". Basically, "If I am cooperative and helpful to the dominant group, they will treat me okay and overlook the fact that I am a member of the race they despise." So, just because you can cite ONE pro-Nord really doesn't prove anything. The fact that you can find _20_ dissatisfied Dunmer, otoh, does sort of indicate that Windhelm has some race relations difficulties.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

At the beginning of the war, the AD invaded Hammerfell, and was trying to take it over. At the end, they were completely driven out. Not sure how this works out as a victory for the AD, but sure, they won. And if it is too hard to get wood down to Southern Hammerfell, then why isn't it too hard for the AD to ship goods from Hammerfell to Summerset? You can ship lumber pretty cheaply across half a province if you have boats, which the Redguards do.

 

We know men and elves are about equal because if they weren't, someone or something would have told us that. If elves live longer and reproduce slower than humans, both of them could have about the same number of people. The longer lifespan would offset having less children.

 

The AD did not withdraw, they were forced out, or at least didn't have the troops left for it to be reasonable to keep trying to hold Hammerfell. If they were going to withdraw, they probably would have done it years earlier and saved everyone the trouble of fighting over land they didn't want.

 

So, one Dunmer thinks the Nords are racist, and one thinks they aren't, and one other elf thinks they aren't.

 

Repeat after me. "At the beginning of the war, Hammerfell was NOT an independent nation."

 

The AD invaded the REGION of Hammerfell, which at the time was part of the EMPIRE.

 

Seriously, you have yet to acknowledge that and still have it in your head that Hammerfell started the war as an independent nation.

 

Elves live longer, but you seem to think they learn nothing extra. Elves have better night vision, but you seem to feel that gives no benefits in wartime. Elves have better disease resistance, but you seem to feel that gives no advantages to wound recovery.

 

And yet you consider reproductive rates to be a crippling disadvantage.....

 

You say they didn't withdraw, that the fact they didn't leave garrisons behind proves they must have been forced out? Is English a second language for you? The words you use don't seem to mean what you seem to think they mean.....

 

"Years earlier" Hammerfell was still part of the Empire. Do you really not understand the difference between Hammerfell (as a province of the Empire) and Hammerfell (as an independent nation)?

[MidbossVyers]

Night vision and disease resistance? I think you might be confusing elves with vampires (and possibly werewolves). If both of these things are valuable traits, humans can get them, if you know what I mean. Yes, Hammerfell was part of the Empire at the beginning of the war, but at the end of the war, the Empire or rather Cyrodiil made certain decisions to benefit Cyrodiil at the cost of Hammerfell. Of course, Hammerfell reacted with decisions to benefit Hammerfell and not Cyrodiil. It's similar to why House Hlaalu is no longer a Great House.

 

Despite claiming to be the ruler of Morrowind, they made many decisions that focused on the benefit of Cyrodiil rather than Morrowind, and because their actions were viewed as disloyal to Morrowind by the other Great Houses, House Hlaalu lost their rank.

Edited August 22, 2015 by MidbossVyers

[Elimc]

Hammerfell started the war as a part of the Empire, and then in the middle they declared independence and defeated the AD. I never said Hammerfell was independent before the war.

 

Where is it said that elves have better night vision? And I always assumed the racial bonuses like disease resistance were a game mechanic. Their slower reproduction would be offset by their longer lifespan during most times, but it would make them take longer to recover from a war.

 

So they endured five years of bloody fighting over Hammerfell, and then just left because they got bored and left? It doesn't take five years to destroy all the cities and harbors, and it takes much more than five years to destroy all possible harbors. The AD realized they wouldn't take Hammerfell, and probably would lose eventually, so they decided to withdraw. They didn't withdraw because they didn't want Hammerfell, they withdrew because they couldn't take Hammerfell.

 

You really don't think the Redguards could have taken the ships out of the cities before they were besieged?

 

The four cities the AD sacked are the four closest to Cyrodil, so if Hammerfell has any money left it would be possible for them to buy resources from Cyrodil. And High Rock might be sympathetic to Hammerfell and give them some resources, but that is an assumption because we have no idea what is happening in High Rock. The reason we here so little about Hammerfell is the same as the reason we hear so little about Cyrodil, or High Rock, or all the other places. It is simply because they are far away.

 

If elves live ten times longer than humans and reproduce at the same rate, you realize elves would outnumber humans by a huge amount after a few centuries.

 

Yes, a lot of the nords in Windhelm are racist, but Ulfric isn't one of them. I mean, there are two homeless nords in Windhelm, and no homeless Dunmer, does that tell you anything?

[kimmera]

Hammerfell started the war as a part of the Empire, and then in the middle they declared independence and defeated the AD. I never said Hammerfell was independent before the war.

 

Where is it said that elves have better night vision? And I always assumed the racial bonuses like disease resistance were a game mechanic. Their slower reproduction would be offset by their longer lifespan during most times, but it would make them take longer to recover from a war.

 

So they endured five years of bloody fighting over Hammerfell, and then just left because they got bored and left? It doesn't take five years to destroy all the cities and harbors, and it takes much more than five years to destroy all possible harbors. The AD realized they wouldn't take Hammerfell, and probably would lose eventually, so they decided to withdraw. They didn't withdraw because they didn't want Hammerfell, they withdrew because they couldn't take Hammerfell.

 

You really don't think the Redguards could have taken the ships out of the cities before they were besieged?

 

The four cities the AD sacked are the four closest to Cyrodil, so if Hammerfell has any money left it would be possible for them to buy resources from Cyrodil. And High Rock might be sympathetic to Hammerfell and give them some resources, but that is an assumption because we have no idea what is happening in High Rock. The reason we here so little about Hammerfell is the same as the reason we hear so little about Cyrodil, or High Rock, or all the other places. It is simply because they are far away.

 

If elves live ten times longer than humans and reproduce at the same rate, you realize elves would outnumber humans by a huge amount after a few centuries.

 

Yes, a lot of the nords in Windhelm are racist, but Ulfric isn't one of them. I mean, there are two homeless nords in Windhelm, and no homeless Dunmer, does that tell you anything?

 

But again the AD didn't go to war against Hammerfell. They went to war against the Empire. Separating Hammerfell from the Empire was of huge strategic value. They didn't need to hold the ground to win. They didn't spend years in Hammerfell for no reason. They spent years in Hammerfell because it was a strategic asset of the Empire. When it ceased to be that, there was no longer any reason to stay. It isn't that hard a concept.

 

Yes, of course... racial bonuses are just game mechanics. Obviously. Elves in game are all mutant elves who in no way represent 'real' elves. You are going very out on a limb there....

 

If the Redguards took their ships out of their cities before they were besieged, exactly where were they stationed during the war years? Ships need supply and there is no mention of them putting in port in Skyrim. Not to mention the crews would be twiddling their thumbs on shipboard while their kinsmen were dying.

 

Unless of course Elves have a more variable reproduction rate. They may live longer simply due to the high disease resistance.

 

As for the homeless in Windhelm, I'd conclude that either the Dunmer are better at looking after their own than the Nords are, or that homeless Dunmer are driven out of the city. The Dunmer do not live in the better part of town.