Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[CaptainPatch]

Hammerfell started the war as a part of the Empire, and then in the middle they declared independence and defeated the AD. I never said Hammerfell was independent before the war.

 

So they endured five years of bloody fighting over Hammerfell, and then just left because they got bored and left? It doesn't take five years to destroy all the cities and harbors, and it takes much more than five years to destroy all possible harbors. The AD realized they wouldn't take Hammerfell, and probably would lose eventually, so they decided to withdraw. They didn't withdraw because they didn't want Hammerfell, they withdrew because they couldn't take Hammerfell.

 

You really don't think the Redguards could have taken the ships out of the cities before they were besieged?

 

The four cities the AD sacked are the four closest to Cyrodil, so IF Hammerfell has any money left it would be possible for them to buy resources from Cyrodil. And High Rock might be sympathetic to Hammerfell and give them some resources, but that is an assumption because we have no idea what is happening in High Rock. The reason we here so little about Hammerfell is the same as the reason we hear so little about Cyrodil, or High Rock, or all the other places. It is simply because they are far away.

 

If elves live ten times longer than humans and reproduce at the same rate, you realize elves would outnumber humans by a huge amount after a few centuries.

 

Yes, a lot of the nords in Windhelm are racist, but Ulfric isn't one of them. I mean, there are two homeless nords in Windhelm, and no homeless Dunmer, does that tell you anything?

I'm not certain if Hammerfell even needed to officially declare its independence: Outraged that the terms of the treaty called for a large portion of southern Hammerfell to be turned over to the Dominion, however, the Redguards soundly rejected it. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province

That says that the Empire disowned Hammerfell. Hammerfell didn't choose to leave the "house" on its own initiative; it was evicted by the house owner.

 

There's a point where someone can conclude that it is unwise to "throw good money after bad". When BOTH parties in a war come to that conclusion at the same time, they declare a truce and stop fighting. AD agreed to withdraw peacefully. The facts that it chose to withdraw and to stop fighting indicates that what they held in Hammerfell wasn't worth fighting for. There was little or no profit to balance out the cost of continued warfare. The fact that the Redguards agreed to stop fighting indicates that they couldn't afford to continue fighting. Either they lacked adequate military might to succeed, or they couldn't afford to do so financially, or both reasons apply. Given how proud Redguards are as a race, don't you think that they would NOT stop fighting and let the Thalmor go peacefully if they felt that they could instead butcher them and push them out of Hammerfell forcefully? They certainly had a HUGE blood debt to collect from the Thalmor, given what the Thalmor had done to Hammerfell.

 

The accounts provided indicate that the Thalmor managed to overrun three of the four southern ports quite quickly, and that the initial assault came as quite a surprise. To a certain extant, what you suggest is on a par with, "When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, couldn't they have sailed the Pacific Fleet out of the harbor, rather than remain and be sitting ducks?" It takes time to shift a ship from being at-anchor to be able sail. Further, the AD was also a maritime power in its own right, so starting the battles by putting a squadron of warships outside the harbor entrances to trap any ships in the harbors was eminently doable. Besides, unless the ships from Rihad, Taneth, and Gilane had adequate provisions already stowed on board, what would the crews be eating on the long voyage to Setinel -- where they might find that it too was besieged like Hegathe? Then too, I would think that the military commanders in each of the port cities would attempt to impress any sailors ashore into the city defenses when the city came under attack. So, overall, I wouldn't expect that too many Redguard ships made it out of the overrun ports.

 

I emphasized the crucial word in the next paragraph. After five years of warfare, with half the country in enemy hands, there would most likely be a LARGE imbalance between Assets and Liabilities, leaning heavily towards the Liabilities side of the ledger. LOTS of expenses; little (if any) income.Importing anything from Cyrodiil would be problematic, given it would be using most of its resources to rebuild the damage the Thalmor caused during the Occupation. Likewise, High Rock, still being in the Empire, would be expected the bulk of its available resources to Cyrodiil to help with that reconstruction. Resources coming from Morrowind and Black Marsh would necessarily come with some hefty transportation surcharges. (Plus inflated pricing to begin with, given that Demand so far exceeds Supply.)

 

You mean like long-lived and yet prolific Bowhead Whales, Rougheye Rockfish, Red Sea Urchin, Galapagos Tortoise, Shortraker Rockfish, Lake Sturgeon, etc.? It's not just about longevity; it's also about survivability. Almost constant warfare tends to keep even long-lived populations down.

 

You forgot to add the important phrase, "that we know of". Do you really think that Bethesda has portrayed EVERY citizen of EVERY community in the game? What we see is "the tip of the iceberg". Status and conditions are shown via dialog with the few characters that we are actually able to interact with. (BTW, I find it kind of humorous that ALL of the beggars that we see are Nords. Where I live, every day there are large numbers of Latino dayworkers positioned on my city's main thoroughfare, try to flag down prospective employees. Meanwhile, over on street corners, you frequently encounter Anglos -- NEVER a Latino -- holding cardboard signs, begging for money for doing nothing more than standing around holding a cardboard sign. I see a distinct similarity between Nords and Anglos.)

[Elimc]

They stayed in Hammerfell 5 years after it became useless to the Empire, so that argument doesn't make sense. Hammerfell chose not to accept the treaty, so they were kicked out of the Empire. They could have stayed in it, but they didn't want to lose half their province.

 

It takes time to march an army halfway across a province, and you can see them coming. It doesn't take nearly as much time to launch a fleet of planes from a hidden carrier. Also, the Redguards couldn't invade Valenwood and the Summerset Isles without support from at least one other country, which they didn't have. It would be suicide for them to invade three countries at once without any support. If the Bretons are divided into all their little city states, it wouldn't be hard to get trade going between them and Hammerfell. If the Empire has got them unified and is demanding that they ship resources to Cyrodil, then it would be harder to set up trade. But we don't know what is happening in High Rock.

 

Yes, because all Imperials can just calm down everyone near them for a minute, and nords can make everyone near them run away, argonians can regenerate health really quickly, Redguards can do the same with stamina, dark elves can set everyone near them on fire, etc. That makes no sense.

 

The AD didn't capture or besiege all of the ports, they could have moved them there, or to High Rock.

 

Humans never live to be hundreds of years old, no matter how many potions of cure disease they drink, so I think that there is another explanation for the elves longevity.

 

There is no mention of people driving Dunmer out of Windhelm, and the Dunmer aren't having to cram 10 people in one house, so I think it is because all the Dunmer were given a free house when they moved to Skyrim, while the nords have to earn there houses, or they don't get them. And almost all of the Dunmer who complain about the Nords treating them happen to be very racist themselves.

[KanesGhost]

@Kimmera

 

Nurelion owns a shop in the city, which wouldn't happen if Ulfric was racist. And Beyln Hlaalu, who is a Dark elf, says: "The best way for us to win the Nords' respect is through hard work." and "Too many dark elves in Windhelm complain about the way we're treated. What good does complaining do?". He thinks the Dunmer are at least partially responsible for the way they live, much like Niranye, who says "The dark elves are too proud and naive to understand the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum." If a Dunmer and an Altmer both think the Dark Elves are the ones keeping themselves in the Grey Quarter, then why would you ignore them? Belyn is certainly not biased against Dunmer, since he is one.

As someone who works extensively with minority groups, I can tell you now your statement is false...I see loathing of one's own Racial Group on a regular basis among People who face regular discrimination from the majority Racial Group around them, they end up joining the majority in attacking their own Race in attempts to disassociate and not be targeted. So 'no' Brelyn's attitude can not be taken as accurate information on the state of the Dunmer in Windhelm. As for the Racism in the world of Tamriel, they're all as bad as each other, the Nords, Dumner, Altmer, etc... are all guilty of rampant Racism, not that it makes it right at all.

[kimmera]

They stayed in Hammerfell 5 years after it became useless to the Empire, so that argument doesn't make sense. Hammerfell chose not to accept the treaty, so they were kicked out of the Empire. They could have stayed in it, but they didn't want to lose half their province.

 

It takes time to march an army halfway across a province, and you can see them coming. It doesn't take nearly as much time to launch a fleet of planes from a hidden carrier. Also, the Redguards couldn't invade Valenwood and the Summerset Isles without support from at least one other country, which they didn't have. It would be suicide for them to invade three countries at once without any support. If the Bretons are divided into all their little city states, it wouldn't be hard to get trade going between them and Hammerfell. If the Empire has got them unified and is demanding that they ship resources to Cyrodil, then it would be harder to set up trade. But we don't know what is happening in High Rock.

 

Yes, because all Imperials can just calm down everyone near them for a minute, and nords can make everyone near them run away, argonians can regenerate health really quickly, Redguards can do the same with stamina, dark elves can set everyone near them on fire, etc. That makes no sense.

 

The AD didn't capture or besiege all of the ports, they could have moved them there, or to High Rock.

 

Humans never live to be hundreds of years old, no matter how many potions of cure disease they drink, so I think that there is another explanation for the elves longevity.

 

There is no mention of people driving Dunmer out of Windhelm, and the Dunmer aren't having to cram 10 people in one house, so I think it is because all the Dunmer were given a free house when they moved to Skyrim, while the nords have to earn there houses, or they don't get them. And almost all of the Dunmer who complain about the Nords treating them happen to be very racist themselves.

 

During those five years, Hammerfell was still fighting the AD too though and the Redguard advance stopped. They then 'fought the AD to a standstill' for those five years which is not the same thing as continuing their advance.

 

Potions of cure disease just cure what you have. There aren't enough herbs available for someone to literally drink them constantly and they'd likely drown trying from all the liquid intake even if there were enough potions.

 

There aren't 10 people in the horrible slums of Markarth either. Armies are supposedly thousands of men but we don't even see hundreds.

 

As for free houses, if so, bad writing. Regardless of race, in several holds you have to do a ton of errands, some rather dangerous, and shell out a sizable amount of coin just to get a plot of land no where near that hold's city. The demands of modern graphics and heavy scripting on processing mean visible populations have to be silly small.

 

In reality, these cities as we see them would just be the capital district, with additional ring(s) of housing and fields surrounding.

[kimmera]

 

As for the Racism in the world of Tamriel, they're all as bad as each other, the Nords, Dumner, Altmer, etc... are all guilty of rampant Racism, not that it makes it right at all.

 

Note that in Morrowwind I was just as critical of Dunmer prejudices. The moment you say 'they are all' you are falling into the same trap they have fallen into. Otherwise you end up condemning individuals like Irileth or Tolfdir with the same brush.

[KanesGhost]

 

As for the Racism in the world of Tamriel, they're all as bad as each other, the Nords, Dumner, Altmer, etc... are all guilty of rampant Racism, not that it makes it right at all.

 

Note that in Morrowwind I was just as critical of Dunmer prejudices. The moment you say 'they are all' you are falling into the same trap they have fallen into. Otherwise you end up condemning individuals like Irileth or Tolfdir with the same brush.

My reference was to general Racial attitudes, not individuals...though point taken and thank you for raising the distinction, I wish more people would know this.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

They had stopped the AD, and the AD decided Hammerfell wasn't going to fall and they couldn't lose that many troops, so they withdrew. But if they thought Hammerfell was worthless except as a distraction to the Empire, then why did they stay there for five years?

 

Unless someone is dying of 50 diseases simultaneously, then they could just drink a potion a day and survive.

 

Okay, lots of Nords are racist, but until you prove that Ulfric is actively being racist then I am done with this argument, we have just talked in circles for weeks. And not just racist, but more racist then Tullius and the Empire.

[CaptainPatch]

They could have stayed in it, but they didn't want to lose half their province.

 

It takes time to march an army halfway across a province, and you can see them coming.

 

The AD didn't capture or besiege all of the ports, they could have moved them there, or to High Rock.

 

There is no mention of people driving Dunmer out of Windhelm, and the Dunmer aren't having to cram 10 people in one house, so I think it is because all the Dunmer were given a free house when they moved to Skyrim, while the nords have to earn there houses, or they don't get them. And almost all of the Dunmer who complain about the Nords treating them happen to be very racist themselves.

You aren't phrasing that first statement right. You make it sound like it was a Redguard decision, when in fact it was a decision made by the Emperor. It would be more accurate to say, "Hammerfell could have remained in the Empire, but it failed to obey the command of its lawful emperor. Therefore the emperor disowned Hammerfell, casting it out of the Empire entirely."

 

You are thinking in terms of modern communication. Plus being in a world with satellite observers of where everything is and watching what they are doing. NOT THE CASE. Tamriel is in a tech state approximately equal to the Dark Ages of Earth. Armies could "appear out of nowhere" and take defenders by surprise quite frequently. The AD invasion was NOT a single mass that went from one objective to the next to the next. The four southern ports were attacked at approximately the same time. ("Get into position and launch your attack on your objective city on the 17th day of Whenever".) Refugees from any given port had no idea whatsoever as to what was happening at the other ports. Ships fleeing Taneth that fled to Rihad would arrive only to discover that it had already fallen to the AD, and vice versa. From the refugees' perspective, ALL of the ports could have been overrun.

 

"Facts not in evidence." How do you/we know how many Dunmer are crammed into each unit? I live in what passes for a slum in my county. Most of my Latino neighbors are cramming 3 families on average into one-family apartments. But I can't see that, because I don't go nosing into their homes. I have to rely on census reports to get that info. And since what we see in the way of residents is only the tip of the iceberg, players have no idea how many Dunmer are living in tight quarters. As for given homes, that's government-speak for "made available for their use", provided they pay higher-than-market rents for housing no self-respecting Nord would use for an outhouse.

[Elimc]

Okay, I agree with that first statement 100%.

 

The AD couldn't travel miles along the coast of Hammerfell, conquering cities as it went, with no one noticing. They could have taken Rihad and Janeth by suprise, but I think someone would have noticed before they got to Gilane. How would the AD attack four separate cities, hundreds of miles apart, at the same time, with no one noticing? The Great War does not say that the AD attacked the cities simultaneously, in fact, it says they took the southern coastline. It would be nearly impossible for them to march across Hammerfell with none of the guards in the cities they surrounded noticing.

 

The Dunmer don't pay any rent on their homes, they were given them for free. "untithed to any thane or hold, and self-governed, with free worship, with no compensation to Skyrim or the Empire except as writ in the Armistice of old wheresoever those might still apply, and henceforth let no Man or Mer say that the Sons and Daughters of Kyne are without mercy or honor."

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

They had stopped the AD, and the AD decided Hammerfell wasn't going to fall and they couldn't lose that many troops, so they withdrew. But if they thought Hammerfell was worthless except as a distraction to the Empire, then why did they stay there for five years?

 

Unless someone is dying of 50 diseases simultaneously, then they could just drink a potion a day and survive.

 

Okay, lots of Nords are racist, but until you prove that Ulfric is actively being racist then I am done with this argument, we have just talked in circles for weeks. And not just racist, but more racist then Tullius and the Empire.

 

Hammerfell was still fighting. If they hadn't stayed, would the Redguard have just stopped too? We have no insight into the diplomatic efforts on that front.

 

Here is a list of Cure Disease potion ingredients.

Cure Disease

Felsaad Tern Feathers^DB

Mudcrab Chitin

Vampire Dust

Charred Skeever Hide

Hawk Feathers

 

Please tell me which two could be farmed on a sufficient scale to produce enough potions for even just one man to take one per day? Keep in mind that although in theory a hawk has many feathers, you only harvest three from a single dead hawk. Tern feathers on average are a harvest of two.

 

Now try to supply such potions to any sizable population.

 

Good luck with that.

 

As for racism, and your suggestion that the Empire is racist, here is the list of possible exchanges at Helgen:

 

Hadvar: "Wait. You there. Step forward. Who are you?"

• • Altmer – "You're not with the Thalmor Embassy, are you High Elf? No, that can't be right... I'm sorry. We'll make sure your remains are returned to The Summerset Isle."
  • Argonian – "Are you a relative of one of the Riften dock workers, Argonian? I'm sorry. We'll make sure your remains are returned to Black Marsh."
  • Bosmer – "Not many Wood Elves would choose to come alone to Skyrim. I'm sorry. We'll make sure your remains are returned to Valenwood."
  • Breton – "You from Daggerfall, Breton? Fleeing from some court intrigue? I'm sorry. We'll make sure your remains are returned to High Rock."
  • Dunmer – "Another refugee? Gods really have abandoned your people, Dark Elf. I'm sorry. We'll make sure your remains are returned to Morrowind."
  • Imperial – "You're a long way from the Imperial City. What're you doing in Skyrim? I'm sorry. We'll make sure your remains are returned to Cyrodiil."
  • Khajiit – "You with one of the trade caravans, Khajiit? Your kind always seems to find trouble. I'm sorry. We'll make sure your remains are returned to Elsweyr."
  • Orsimer – "You from one of the strongholds, Orc? How did you end up here? I'm sorry. We'll make sure your remains are returned to Orsinium."
  • Redguard – "What're you doing here, Redguard? You a sellsword? A sailor from Stros M'Kai? I'm sorry. We'll make sure your remains are returned to Hammerfell."
  • Nord – "You picked a bad time to come home to Skyrim, kinsman. I'm sorry. At least you'll die here, in your homeland."

   

   

Each and every one is respectful of that culture.

 

However while I was looking for further evidence regarding Ulfric, I came across this:

 

Unrest in the Gray Quarter

Jorleif: "Sir, there continues to be unrest in the Gray Quarter."

Ulfric: "Blasted dark elves. I don't suppose you could tell them that I presently have larger concerns? Such as all of Skyrim?"

Jorleif: "They don't seem to be very sympathetic to our cause, sir."

Ulfric: "Let me know if you hear anything more substantial."

Jorleif: "Of course, my lord."

 

 

That backs your position in that Ulfric is treating the Dark Elves as an unwanted distraction in time of war rather than ordering an immediate crack down on them. He might not be completely sympathetic to their situation but he doesn't seem to hate them either.

 

On the other hand, I also came across this (part of the Jagged Crown civil war mission, Stormcloak side):

 

 

Ulfric: "Tell me again why we're wasting time and dwindling resources chasing a legend. We don't even know it exists!"

Galmar: "The Jarls are upset. They don't all support you."

Ulfric: "Damn the Jarls."

Galmar: "They demand the Moot."

Ulfric: "And damn the Moot! We should risk letting those milkdrinkers put Torygg's woman on the throne? She'll hand Skyrim over to the elves on a silver plate."

 

 

That doesn't sound like respect for Nord traditions to me. It sounds like he only respects Skyrim's traditions when he likes the results.