Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[MidbossVyers]

So Hadvar is representative of the Empire? What about his direct superior, that Imperial captain who does use racial slurs, whilst ordering your execution?

[CaptainPatch]

The AD couldn't travel miles along the coast of Hammerfell, conquering cities as it went, with no one noticing. They could have taken Rihad and Janeth by suprise, but I think someone would have noticed before they got to Gilane. How would the AD attack four separate cities, hundreds of miles apart, at the same time, with no one noticing? The Great War does not say that the AD attacked the cities simultaneously, in fact, it says they took the southern coastline. It would be nearly impossible for them to march across Hammerfell with none of the guards in the cities they surrounded noticing.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Great_War

Smaller Aldmeri forces landed along the southern coastline of Hammerfell. The disunited Redguard forces offered only scattered resistance to the invaders, and much of the southern coastline was quickly overrun.

In Hammerfell, the Thalmor were content to consolidate their gains as they took control of the whole southern coastline, which was in fact their stated objective in the ultimatum delivered to the Emperor. Of the southern cities, only Hegathe still held out.

 

The forces that they brought into Hammerfell -- by both land and sea -- was what they felt would be adequate to secure their objectives (the southern coast of Hammerfell). Lady Arennelya apparently deviated from the plan by pursuing the retreating Imperial forces across the Alikr Desert and capturing Skaven. It's apparent because after having captured the city, the Thalmor on their own initiative withdrew and return to the southern coastland. An army the size of which would be adequate to both capture the southern half of Hammerfell, and thereafter garrison it would have been a logistical nightmare if it moved as one single mass. (Armies at that tech level depended mostly on foraging. Which is why invasions of the period were often described as "a plague of locusts, stripping the land bare in its wake". Logistically, splitting in four divisions traveling separately makes it easier to supply adequately by using foraging. Timing all four attacks to initiate at approximately the same time really isn't all that difficult: Estimate how long it would take a force to march to the most distant objective (Hegathe). The other divisions get to move at a more sedate pace to assure that they do NOT arrive at their objectives too early. Then on the plan's D-Day date was, all four divisions arrive at each of the four cities at approximately the same time -- if the planners estimated correctly how long it would take for the furthest objective to be reached. The first three objectives would definitely initiate their attacks at the same time. The fourth, might have taken longer than estimated though, for whatever reasons, and thus initiated the attack late. [Which would explain why the first three fell quickly while Hegathe was not taken by surprise and had time enough to set a defense, thereby forcing the Thalmor to siege the city rather than overrun it like the other three.]

So Hadvar is representative of the Empire? What about his direct superior, that Imperial captain who does use racial slurs, whilst ordering your execution?

Seeing as how that was Legate Rikke, a Nord, you have to ascertain if she was showing Imperial prejudice, or Nord prejudice.

Edited August 23, 2015 by CaptainPatch

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Mudcrabs, skeevers and hawks are all common, and since you could order them from alchemist around the province, I think a rich man could afford a potion a day. Especially an Emperor.

 

Ulfric respects Nord traditions when they don't endanger the fate of the world. They should be followed, but if following them will literally cause the world to never have existed, then there can be exceptions.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

Hammerfell was attacked and the port cities fell before the Redguards could regroup and mount a defense, but it takes a lot more time to organize an army than it does to tell some ships to sail away. You assume the AD can have three armies located throughout southern Hammerfell, and no one will notice they are there until they attack. It is far more likely they just moved from city to city very quickly, and the Redguards could not get ahead of them until Hegathe.

 

Hadvar's captain at Helgen is not Rikke, it is an Imperial simply named "Imperial Captain", who dies at Helgen. She uses a racial slur for every race possible.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

Mudcrabs, skeevers and hawks are all common, and since you could order them from alchemist around the province, I think a rich man could afford a potion a day. Especially an Emperor.

 

Ulfric respects Nord traditions when they don't endanger the fate of the world. They should be followed, but if following them will literally cause the world to never have existed, then there can be exceptions.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

Hammerfell was attacked and the port cities fell before the Redguards could regroup and mount a defense, but it takes a lot more time to organize an army than it does to tell some ships to sail away. You assume the AD can have three armies located throughout southern Hammerfell, and no one will notice they are there until they attack. It is far more likely they just moved from city to city very quickly, and the Redguards could not get ahead of them until Hegathe.

 

Hadvar's captain at Helgen is not Rikke, it is an Imperial simply named "Imperial Captain", who dies at Helgen. She uses a racial slur for every race possible.

 

Mudcrabs are not common enough to keep a steady supply of one carapace per person per day up, and you seem to be ignoring shipping difficulties and ordering difficulties. The only way it could be managed would be a dedicated farm of some sort. Not sure what your work experience is but you really seem to have no idea whatsoever regarding strategic considerations or supply problems.

 

<chuckles> So now Ulfric isn't fighting for Skyrim, he's trying to save the entire world? And he is the only one who could save it, even though the very government you claim that he is trying to save it from has been manipulating him and considers him a useful asset?

 

As for the Captain at Helgen, got quotes?

 

@MidbossVyers Same question... got quotes re: the Captain at Helgen?

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

There may not be enough mudcrabs to supply everyone, but the Emperor could certainly get enough potions of cure disease to live forever. I never said everyone could, but kings and emperors generally have a lot of money and resources, so I think they would be able to afford buying one mudcrab a day.

 

Ulfric believes that if he doesn't separate from the Empire and build up Skyrim to resist the AD, they will take over the world. He may not no of their plans to undo it, but he knows they will take it over. He thinks he is saving the world, and I agree with him, since he is only considered an asset as long as he eventually loses the war, or it ends so far in the future both Skyrim and Cyrodil are devastated.

 

Yes, here they are:

 

Argonian "Next, the lizard!" Breton "Next, the Breton!" Dark Elf "Next, the dark elf!" High Elf "Next, the high elf!" Imperial "Next, the renegade from Cyrodiil!" Khajiit "Next, the cat!" Nord "Next, the Nord in the rags!" Orc "Next, the Orc!" Redguard "Next, the Redguard!" Wood Elf

"Next, the wood elf!"

Edited August 24, 2015 by Elimc

[CaptainPatch]

@CaptainPatch

 

Hammerfell was attacked and the port cities fell before the Redguards could regroup and mount a defense, but it takes a lot more time to organize an army than it does to tell some ships to sail away. You assume the AD can have three armies located throughout southern Hammerfell, and no one will notice they are there until they attack. It is far more likely they just moved from city to city very quickly, and the Redguards could not get ahead of them until Hegathe.

History is filled with precisely those kinds of occurrences. So, patently, it can be done. And don't forget the mentioned forces that arrived by sea. What do you think happens to ships exiting a port and run into a squadron of warships loaded with Marines and soldiers? At the same time the land forces arrive, the naval squadrons take up station at the harbor entrances.

[MidbossVyers]

 

The AD couldn't travel miles along the coast of Hammerfell, conquering cities as it went, with no one noticing. They could have taken Rihad and Janeth by suprise, but I think someone would have noticed before they got to Gilane. How would the AD attack four separate cities, hundreds of miles apart, at the same time, with no one noticing? The Great War does not say that the AD attacked the cities simultaneously, in fact, it says they took the southern coastline. It would be nearly impossible for them to march across Hammerfell with none of the guards in the cities they surrounded noticing.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Great_War

Smaller Aldmeri forces landed along the southern coastline of Hammerfell. The disunited Redguard forces offered only scattered resistance to the invaders, and much of the southern coastline was quickly overrun.

In Hammerfell, the Thalmor were content to consolidate their gains as they took control of the whole southern coastline, which was in fact their stated objective in the ultimatum delivered to the Emperor. Of the southern cities, only Hegathe still held out.

 

The forces that they brought into Hammerfell -- by both land and sea -- was what they felt would be adequate to secure their objectives (the southern coast of Hammerfell). Lady Arennelya apparently deviated from the plan by pursuing the retreating Imperial forces across the Alikr Desert and capturing Skaven. It's apparent because after having captured the city, the Thalmor on their own initiative withdrew and return to the southern coastland. An army the size of which would be adequate to both capture the southern half of Hammerfell, and thereafter garrison it would have been a logistical nightmare if it moved as one single mass. (Armies at that tech level depended mostly on foraging. Which is why invasions of the period were often described as "a plague of locusts, stripping the land bare in its wake". Logistically, splitting in four divisions traveling separately makes it easier to supply adequately by using foraging. Timing all four attacks to initiate at approximately the same time really isn't all that difficult: Estimate how long it would take a force to march to the most distant objective (Hegathe). The other divisions get to move at a more sedate pace to assure that they do NOT arrive at their objectives too early. Then on the plan's D-Day date was, all four divisions arrive at each of the four cities at approximately the same time -- if the planners estimated correctly how long it would take for the furthest objective to be reached. The first three objectives would definitely initiate their attacks at the same time. The fourth, might have taken longer than estimated though, for whatever reasons, and thus initiated the attack late. [Which would explain why the first three fell quickly while Hegathe was not taken by surprise and had time enough to set a defense, thereby forcing the Thalmor to siege the city rather than overrun it like the other three.]

So Hadvar is representative of the Empire? What about his direct superior, that Imperial captain who does use racial slurs, whilst ordering your execution?

Seeing as how that was Legate Rikke, a Nord, you have to ascertain if she was showing Imperial prejudice, or Nord prejudice.

 

No, the Imperial Captain presiding over the execution is NOT Legate Rikke, despite what apparently many think: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Imperial_Captain

[Elimc]

Only a small portion of the invading army used ships, most of it marched in on land. And since the AD couldn't have sailed to three different ports in three different groups and arrived simultaneously due to lack of communications and unpredictable winds, it is more likely that they attacked each city one after the other, not at the same time.

 

And while the captain I mentioned isn't racist to elves or bretons, she is racist to most races.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

There may not be enough mudcrabs to supply everyone, but the Emperor could certainly get enough potions of cure disease to live forever. I never said everyone could, but kings and emperors generally have a lot of money and resources, so I think they would be able to afford buying one mudcrab a day.

 

Ulfric believes that if he doesn't separate from the Empire and build up Skyrim to resist the AD, they will take over the world. He may not no of their plans to undo it, but he knows they will take it over. He thinks he is saving the world, and I agree with him, since he is only considered an asset as long as he eventually loses the war, or it ends so far in the future both Skyrim and Cyrodil are devastated.

 

Yes, here they are:

 

Argonian "Next, the lizard!" Breton "Next, the Breton!" Dark Elf "Next, the dark elf!" High Elf "Next, the high elf!" Imperial "Next, the renegade from Cyrodiil!" Khajiit "Next, the cat!" Nord "Next, the Nord in the rags!" Orc "Next, the Orc!" Redguard "Next, the Redguard!" Wood Elf

"Next, the wood elf!"

 

While in theory the Emperors could the easiest way would still be to have an actual dedicated farm and we have seen no indications of any such.

 

Regardless though, how do you know the Emperors don't do something like this? Which Emperors have died from old age?

 

Bull. There is nothing even hinting that Ulfric is worried about the world. He wants power and to drive the Thalmor out of Skyrim. There is no dialogue at all suggesting he knows anything about the AD's overall plan.

 

Calling a Breton a Breton is prejudicial? Is Orc a derogatory term? Redguard? Wood Elf? High Elf? Dark Elf? The only possible derogatory terms there are Lizard and Cat. That isn't 'most races.' And keep in mind he is talking to someone he considers to be an enemy combatant and thus a traitor. The Nord is in rags and the Imperial has been decreed a renegade.

[CaptainPatch]

Only a small portion of the invading army used ships, most of it marched in on land. And since the AD couldn't have sailed to three different ports in three different groups and arrived simultaneously due to lack of communications and unpredictable winds, it is more likely that they attacked each city one after the other, not at the same time.

Small portion, right. Only 3,000 men instead of 30,000.

 

You must think that the Thalmor (and most any empire you do NOT align yourself with) are pretty stupid. Timing a broad offensive spearheading in multiple locations is NOT that hard. It's as simple as, "You need to be at your jump-off point ON the 15th of the month. Not before, and not after. ON." Given the tech level of the environment, anytime on that day would work. Or do you think that Thalmor sea captains can't read a calendar?

 

Hitting the ports one at a time would be the height of stupidity, actually. Then most definitely, EVERY city after the first would have had the opportunity to prepare defenses and stockpile supplies. Hitting them all at once makes for a MUCH more effective campaign. Hegathe, being the furthest away overland from Cyrodiil, would require the longest march time -- and more opportunity for the timetable to get thrown off. The other three, leaving the Cyrodiil border at the same time as the Hegathe force, had a lot more flexibility to compensate for unseen delays and still be at their jump-off locations on time. Note that there is no mention that the Thalmor had to do any kind of siegecraft at the first three ports -- which means that the Thalmor successfully surprised the Redguards and overran the cities on the first push.