Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Are you sure there are no telescopes, and do we know how large hammerfell is in real-life units? I have been trying to guess distances from looking at the map, but I haven't seen one with actual distances on it?

 

I don't believe that the AD would spend five years fighting for a province that was useless to them except as a way to weaken the Empire once the Empire signed the WGC, but I guess we are done until someone else comes along to restart this.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Elimc

[CaptainPatch]

@CaptainPatch

 

I know Hammerfell was caught by suprise, but I think if the AD had split themselves into three separate groups and also the separate navies, then it would have been nearly impossible for one of the armies to sneak around to Gilane without being noticed. The army would be only a third of the size of their whole army, not counting the ones on ships, so it would not be enough to take the city unless it had not been spotted, which is unlikely, since it would have had to treck all the way across Hammerfell without being noticed. Their is a difference between what Japan did at Pearl Harbor and launching three different full scale invasions miles into enemy territory without being spotted until one of your armies has walked hundreds of miles to their destination. They could take Rihad and Taneth quickly, but Gilane is too far west.

 

Gilane is located near a peninsula that could easily see any invading ships, and the channel between the peninsula and mainland near Gilane does not look very wide. Also, since the AD is apparently splitting their navy into many groups, the Redguards would only encounter a sixth of their fleet at a time.(The other half would be in Cyrodil.)

 

I did not say they wouldn't be able to go fast to run down an enemy ship over a short distance, I said that with three different fleets one of them is likely to either be becalmed or caught in a storm, both of which would throw off their estimated time of arrival by at least a few days.

 

And even if the AD did manage to pull off such a feat, they were still defeated over a course of five years until they decided to pull out. But you still haven't given me a good reason as to why they stayed those five years if they were just going to leave.

Again, what you are suggesting is impossible has been done many, many times in actual History.

 

They are not 3 separate navies; they are three separate squadrons of ONE Navy. The time it would take them to travel to their jump-off points (which would be about 50 miles outside of their target port, which is well over the horizon and therefore entirely out of sight from any Redguard eyes) from their home ports in Summerset Isles would take less than 1/3 of the time (probably more like 1/6) it took the division heading for Hegathe from the Cyrodiil border. That gives them an enormous amount of flexibility to be certain that they arrive on station on time.

 

To a large extent, it really doesn't matter if any of the divisions are spotted en route. How many of the spotters can outrun a troop of cavalry to the nearest Redguard garrison? (That's what the scouts are there for.) Those garrisons were in all probability in the ports because in the interior of Hammerfell, who would they be guarding against? Civilians disappearing in the world of Skyrim is hardly an unusual occurrence.

 

You have to keep in mind that Communication in this world is on a par with Earth's Dark Ages/Middle Ages: Only as fast as a person can travel. A person on foot would barely (if at all) arrive just a VERY short time ahead of the invaders -- provided he was already prepared and provisioned to make the trip. Someone on horseback would necessarily have a higher visual profile, and therefore attract the attention of the cavalry screen. And finally, keep in mind just who would the observers most likely be? Civilians, right? Civilians with property seeing an army approaching will be dithering between salvaging as much property as possible and just hiding as best they could and hope they don't get spotted. If they family anywhere nearby, concern for their safety would be paramount. And since the invasion is coming from the Cyrodiil border, there was literally no reason for a military detachment to have been deployed anywhere along the invaders' line of march.

 

And as I keep on telling you, this kind of maneuver has been successfully done numerous times in actual History. So it's patently possible.

 

Do we have any idea just what the map scale is? I tend to think of Tamriel as being about the size of Australia, but located in the Northern hemisphere instead of the Southern. (Which accounts for all the snow fields on Skyrim's North coast.) Even if Gilane is located near the base of a peninsula, even if it had a lookout post on top of a mountain right on the coast, at most it would add just a couple miles to the horizon. Even then, at that range, what do you think they would be seeing? About the equivalent of a few pixels on a monitor screen. To be able to clearly ID the vessels, those vessels would have to be within a few miles at most -- and they wouldn't be getting that close until D-Day. And keep in mind, Hammerfell wouldn't even be aware that the AD had invaded Cyrodiil yet, because for the news to get to Hammerfell, it would have to travel through the AD armies invading both Cyrodiil and Hammerfell, and whatever naval picket line the AD deployed between the two provinces. The FIRST news of the Great War having started would be the Thalmor forces arriving on their doorstep.

 

The fact that Gilane was captured without having been seiged demonstrates that the AD division did, in fact arrive as a complete surprise.

 

Do you know the effectiveness adjustment between a Army during peace time and a fully mobilized Army? If the AD arrived at any of the port cities, all it needed to do was storm the gates, because Hammerfell hadn't yet been mobilized. The ONLY exception was Hegathe, which was the city that required the greatest amount of AD travel time. And also obviously, the Redguards _had_ become aware the AD was on the way and had adequate time to mobilize there and deploy adequate defenses. Enough that the AD did NOT just storm the city, but instead besieged it. And think about this: If that "tiny" fraction of the AD forces was so tiny, why would the Redguards let themselves be surrounded if their force was larger than that "tiny"? Why not just sally out and kick the snot out of the Thalmor?

 

And yet again, "stalemate" =/= "defeated".

[Elimc]

@CaptainPatch

 

You keep talking about how easy it is for an army to move undetected, but if cities in Hammerfell are like the ones in Skyrim they are closer to castles than to cities, and they would have garrisoned forts nearby to prevent an army sneaking up on them. This wouldn't be a problem if the AD just attacked the city as soon as their armies arrived, but it would make it hard for them to camp near a city while the division attacking Gilane marched there. it would be easier for them to keep their army together and rely on taking the city quickly and moving on to the next one before the Redguards could set up a defense than to try to spread their forces across Hammerfell. And a army on the ground is easy to identify as such, especially in a desert where they would kick up a large cloud of dust.

 

I did some research and I found this subreddit, and no one there seemed to agree on how big Skyrim was, so I assume it is the same way with the rest of Tamriel.

 

The AD did lose the war, if they had been winning they would have signed a treaty that got them something, instead of just letting them leave peacefully.

[CaptainPatch]

@CaptainPatch

 

You keep talking about how easy it is for an army to move undetected, but if cities in Hammerfell are like the ones in Skyrim they are closer to castles than to cities, and they would have garrisoned forts nearby to prevent an army sneaking up on them. This wouldn't be a problem if the AD just attacked the city as soon as their armies arrived, but it would make it hard for them to camp near a city while the division attacking Gilane marched there. it would be easier for them to keep their army together and rely on taking the city quickly and moving on to the next one before the Redguards could set up a defense than to try to spread their forces across Hammerfell. And a army on the ground is easy to identify as such, especially in a desert where they would kick up a large cloud of dust.

 

I did some research and I found this subreddit, and no one there seemed to agree on how big Skyrim was, so I assume it is the same way with the rest of Tamriel.

 

The AD did lose the war, if they had been winning they would have signed a treaty that got them something, instead of just letting them leave peacefully.

Have you noticed the condition the forts in Skyrim are in? Have you noticed how many, even with a civil war on, do NOT have a military garrisons? (Usually bandits or mages.) During times of peace, governments economize. They try to avoid spending to much on military personnel that are NOT engaged in a war. They don't spend money on fortification maintenance if they can help it. And word that the Great War had begun would have had to come from Cyrodiil -- passing directly through the AD invasion forces.

 

You seem to think the Altmer as a whole are incredibly stoooooopid! THINK! What would you do to achieve complete surprise over the Redguard defenders AND strike at four locations at one time? What is it that is directly North of all four targets? It's the Alikr Desert, and it has an almost nonexistent population. Population tends to cluster in and around well-established communities. So between the Alikr Desert and the coast, there really isn't much in the way of people to see an army skirting the South edge of the Alikr. As the divisions move West, one after another, divisions tasked with capturing closer ports drop out and camp (South of the desert before you jump to yet another foolish conclusion) and wait -- weeks if need be -- until the time is right to move the last 50-100 miles to the coast.

 

[The description of Hammerfell is actually quite a bit like the Arabian peninsula: Communities on the coast, and LOTS of desert in the center.]

 

"The Redguards did lose the war. If they had been winning they wouldn't have signed a treaty that allowed the people that ravaged the entire province to depart peacefully." See? I can do it too.

[kimmera]

@CaptainPatch

 

You keep talking about how easy it is for an army to move undetected, but if cities in Hammerfell are like the ones in Skyrim they are closer to castles than to cities, and they would have garrisoned forts nearby to prevent an army sneaking up on them. This wouldn't be a problem if the AD just attacked the city as soon as their armies arrived, but it would make it hard for them to camp near a city while the division attacking Gilane marched there. it would be easier for them to keep their army together and rely on taking the city quickly and moving on to the next one before the Redguards could set up a defense than to try to spread their forces across Hammerfell. And a army on the ground is easy to identify as such, especially in a desert where they would kick up a large cloud of dust.

 

I did some research and I found this subreddit, and no one there seemed to agree on how big Skyrim was, so I assume it is the same way with the rest of Tamriel.

 

The AD did lose the war, if they had been winning they would have signed a treaty that got them something, instead of just letting them leave peacefully.

 

As Captain Patch said, this is peacetime. Garrisons are minimal and off guard.

 

Even with telescopes (which have a very narrow field of view) spotting ships is not that big. One 100 foot tower could only spot another at about 23 miles, just due to the horizon.

 

And the treaty the AD signed with the Empire gave them everything they had demanded before going to war plus some territory. If they had held Hammerfell it would have been gravy.

[Elimc]

@CaptainPatch

 

I think the reason the forts are filled with bandits is simply so the player can clear them out; once they are cleared soldiers will take the place of the bandits.

 

Also, you say all the ships in Skyrim are modeled after viking longships, but that could just be because the nords are modeled after vikings, so it makes sense that their ships would be too. This does not mean that all the ships will be modeled after longships, especially the ones made by other cultures.

 

To achieve surprise when attacking Hammerfell I would march quickly and take all the cities in my path before they could get ready. If I had my armies wait in the desert(if they waited in the not desert, they would have to be on or near the coast, where someone could see them), they would be hot, and tired when I needed them ready to attack. If they stayed on the coast and moved as quickly as possible, they could keep pace with any messengers and take cities before they were prepared. Also, the army waiting outside the first city would be waiting there a while, which would run a risk of being spotted.

 

The Redguards signed a treaty that got the AD to leave them alone so that they could recover. As far as we know, there were no negative terms in the treaty for Hammerfell.

[CaptainPatch]

And the treaty the AD signed with the Empire gave them everything they had demanded before going to war plus some territory. If they had held Hammerfell it would have been gravy.

To be fair, the initial AD demands included the South coast of Hammerfell. [i'm certain that demand had been included simply to make certain that the Empire refused the ultimatum.] (It would be useful to have some Lore account of Hammerfell's resources and major industries to get a better handle of just what it is that made the AD want that real estate in the first place. It certainly was NOT a Must-Have, otherwise they would have reinforced and hung onto it just like they did Valenwood and Elswyr.)

 

 

@CaptainPatch

 

I think the reason the forts are filled with bandits is simply so the player can clear them out; once they are cleared soldiers will take the place of the bandits.

 

Also, you say all the ships in Skyrim are modeled after viking longships, but that could just be because the nords are modeled after vikings, so it makes sense that their ships would be too. This does not mean that all the ships will be modeled after longships, especially the ones made by other cultures.

 

To achieve surprise when attacking Hammerfell I would march quickly and take all the cities in my path before they could get ready. If I had my armies wait in the desert(if they waited in the not desert, they would have to be on or near the coast, where someone could see them), they would be hot, and tired when I needed them ready to attack. If they stayed on the coast and moved as quickly as possible, they could keep pace with any messengers and take cities before they were prepared. Also, the army waiting outside the first city would be waiting there a while, which would run a risk of being spotted.

 

The Redguards signed a treaty that got the AD to leave them alone so that they could recover. As far as we know, there were no negative terms in the treaty for Hammerfell.

 

Not so. If the player clears any fortification before taking sides, the bandits/mages respawn after just a game-week or two. Military detachments do NOT appear in any of some forts only after the PC has taken a side in the civil war.

 

Except that the ship designs apply to ALL races in ALL of the TES games. (As far as I have seen.)

 

As you describe it, you would only achieve surprise in ONE city. As the AD approached from one side, a courier would be dispatched on the other side and be to city #2 (Taneth) many days before the AD army could arrive there.

 

Again, you are making the assumption that the ONLY place an army could be is well within detection range.

 

Wrong again. The Alikr extends from the North coast to about halfway to the South coast: http://uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-concept-Alikr.jpg

And for comparison, all of Hammerfell. (Compare the two northern coastlines to see where they overlap.):

http://uesp.net/w/images/7/73/Hammerfell_map_Oblivion.jpg

 

Having been exposed to several Redguards in Skyrim, do you really think that they would be at all willing to just let the Thalmor walk away, unmolested, after all the death and destruction that the AD had done to Hammerfell? There sense of Honor must be screaming at them, "We MUST avenge our slaughtered kinsmen!" But instead, they just meekly let the butchers peacefully depart. It must have galled them to no end to NOT be able to get any payback. And just look at what they "won": Tens of thousands of Redguard, many/most of them literally murdered by the Thalmor. They got all their real estate back, MUCH worse for the wear. The State Treasury entirely (most likely) depleted. The Economy in shambles. Much of the province's infrastructure destroyed and in need of repair (with little or no money to pay for the repairs). The Redguards are soooooooooo far from break-even that it's actually amazing that the the State of Hammerfell still exists, rather than having dissolved into the patchwork of City-States it once was. In contrast, just what is it that the Thalmor lost? Troops, just as the Redguards lost just as many (but probably many more) as the Redguards lost. In regards to Treasury spent, the Thalmor were at least in a position to spend 5 years stripping South Hammerfell of everything of value.

 

And yet, you insist on calling ^^THAT a "win" for the Redguards. ["The operation was a success. However, the patient died."]

Edited August 27, 2015 by CaptainPatch

[NerevarII]

It all boils down to simply this .... would you rather fight for your freedom , and not be bent over by the Thalmor and rammed in the bum with their Long Yellow Pyadonean Fruit , and deal with racism ? Or would you rather be the Thalmor's play toy and fight with the weak-spirited Empire and willing , and happily , receive their Long Yellow Pyandonean fruit in your hind end ?

[Elimc]

@CaptainPatch

 

We do not know if the AD left because they thought Hammerfell was a waste of time since it wasn't part of the Empire, or because they were about to be defeated and signed a peace treaty rather than expose there weakness. That is really the point of this argument, and there is no proof either way. And you have no proof that Hammerfell is bankrupt and collapsing into civil war, since we haven't heard from it. It has the advantage of not being forced to pay a tribute to the AD, and only 4 cities were taken, which is enough to damage their economy, but not beyond recovery, especially if the AD intended to keep that part of Hammerfell until the last bit of the war, because then they wouldn't have had nearly as much time to destroy cities, harbors, and farms.

 

@NerevarII

 

Please prove to me that Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are racist, and that Tullius and the Imperials aren't. And provide more evidence than a few Dunmer complaining that some nords don't like them, because "some nords" are not necessarily the Stormcloaks, and will act the same no matter who is in charge.

[CaptainPatch]

It all boils down to simply this .... would you rather fight for your freedom , and not be bent over by the Thalmor and rammed in the bum with their Long Yellow Pyadonean Fruit , and deal with racism ? Or would you rather be the Thalmor's play toy and fight with the weak-spirited Empire and willing , and happily , receive their Long Yellow Pyandonean fruit in your hind end ?

"I had an arm and leg amputated, but I'm still alive, and I'm bankrupt after paying for the surgery. But I count that as a BIG win."

 

The more correct quote should be, "It could have been worse."

@CaptainPatch

 

We do not know if the AD left because they thought Hammerfell was a waste of time since it wasn't part of the Empire, or because they were about to be defeated and signed a peace treaty rather than expose there weakness. That is really the point of this argument, and there is no proof either way. And you have no proof that Hammerfell is bankrupt and collapsing into civil war, since we haven't heard from it. It has the advantage of not being forced to pay a tribute to the AD, and only 4 cities were taken, which is enough to damage their economy, but not beyond recovery, especially if the AD intended to keep that part of Hammerfell until the last bit of the war, because then they wouldn't have had nearly as much time to destroy cities, harbors, and farms.

I am going to have to backpedal somewhat because I just found and read the specific terms of the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai:

THE SECOND TREATY OF STROS M'KAI

This being the Second Treaty signed on the Island of Stros M'Kai, entirely and without exception superseding the first such treaty as signed in the year 2E 864.

This treaty is penned to bring an end to the conflict within Hammerfell, between the Redguard People and the Aldmeri Dominion, and which began in 4E 171, between the Aldmeri Dominion and the Emperor of Cyrodiil, Titus Mede II.

SECTION I: THE PLEDGE OF THE ALDMERI DOMINION

1) For the misfortunes tragically wrought upon the Redguard people in the course of a conflict with a third party, and in pursuit of a cause unrelated to the people of Hammerfell- that cause being the abolition of worship of the false god Talos- the Aldmeri Dominion officially expresses its remorse. Moreover, it expresses its admiration to all the Redguards of Hammerfell for their undying courage in war and steadfastness without the military umbrella of the Imperial Legion.

2) The Aldmeri Dominion hereby renounces any and all claims to territory within the bounds of the old Province of Hammerfell, and renounces all rights it may have claimed within the Province, except within the territories of the Kingdom of Orsinium, where the Dominion reserves the right to stamp out the worship of Talos.

3) The Aldmeri Dominion also formally announces its complete withdrawal of military force from within Hammerfell except for that which is necessary to the maintenance of the two embassies to be conceded to the Dominion by this peace, the first to be maintained in the City of Sentinel, capital of the kingdom of the same name and in the Kingdom of Orsinium, as per that kingdom's adherence to the Imperial Writ of the Mede Dynasty, and the requisite ‘White Gold Concordat'.

4) The Aldmeri Dominion agrees to payment of generous reparations, to be paid directly to Hammerfell's ancestral rulers, the Crowns in trust of their wise judgement of Hammerfell's needs. This is to make just recompense, principally for the grievous damage to the Redguard's ancestral capital of Hegathe, as well as to the cities of Taneth, Skaven, Rihad and Gilane. These are cities which were assaulted at several points during the war.

SECTION II: THE PLEDGE OF THE CROWNS

1) The Crowns affirm their absolute right to sovereignty and religious and political noninterference from outside parties, and invite acknowledgement from all relevant parties of their just claim to leadership of the Redguards.

2) The Crowns hereby declare their acceptance, in trust for all Hammerfell, of the Thalmor's payment of reparations and any other funds deemed necessary for the continuation of the peace laid out in this treaty.

3) By virtue of consultation with Aldmeri scholars of religion, the Crowns acknowledge and agree with the Aldmeri stance against the heretical and unclean worship of the false god Talos, who is heretofore to be known only by his Cyrodiilic name of Tiber Septim.

4) The Crowns acknowledge the Forbears' assistance in the matter of the siege of Hegathe.

SECTION III: THE PLEDGE OF THE FORBEARS

1) The Forbears affirm through this treaty, their right to dignity and self determination within Hammerfell and their freedom of affiliation, of practic and of worship without compromise of their dignity as the first of the Redguard people to arrive in Tamriel.

2) The Royal House of Sentinel pledges to enter into Dynastic Marriage with the Mede Dynasty and with the Royal Houses of Wayrest and Daggerfall, all to be celebrated at the expense of the Imperial Chancery, the better to stand as guarantor of this treaty and to honor the brave Ra'Gada who gave their lives in defense of their homeland.

3) The Forbears acknowledge and stand as guarantor of the rights and patron of those citizens of Hammerfell who choose to venture beyond the realm's borders, whether in service to the Imperial Legion, Fighter's Guild or any other affiliation with honor worthy of Hammerfell.

4) The Forbears accept, in their role as guardians and patrons of those Redguards who have embraced Tamrielic customs, any and all monies paid by the Mede Dynasty, Wayrest and Daggerfall, for the purpose of pension for Imperial Legionnaires, for the purposes of planning the dynastic marriages, for trade and for any other means that is deemed necessary.

SECTION IV: THE PLEDGE OF THE LHOTUNIC & ALIK'R

1) The Lhotunic affirm and assert their right to respect and adherence of both Imperial and Yokudan manners without sacrifice of dignity or honor before their brethren.

2) The Lhotunic pledge themselves to respect of the territorial integrity of all factions, and advise that this territorial integrity is an internal matter for the factions involved, and exhort their brethren to follow this example.

3) The Lhotunic pledge themselves to honor and uphold their tradition of mediation between and protection of the stated traditions of all Redguard people, the better to protect the interests of Hammerfell and its allies.

4) The Alik'r pledge their acceptance, on condition of the other parties' fulfillment of their stated pledges, of this peace treaty, and their desire to return to the deserts.

SECTION V: THE PLEDGE OF THE MEDE DYNASTY

1) The Mede Dynasty renounces all of its previous claims to Imperial sovereignty over the princedoms of Hammerfell, with the exception of any territories held by the Kingdom of Orsinium, in addition to any other kingdoms or groups, within the borders of Hammerfell, which willingly choose alignment with, or oath-sworn vassalage to the Empire.

2) The Mede Dynasty renounces any form of endorsement or connection with any and all attempts by the Imperial Chapel to proliferate worship of Talos within Hammerfell. It furthermore advises that all such clerics who continue in this unlawful manner will be legally in schism with the Chapel, until such time as their actions demonstrate commitment to the decrees of the faith.

3) The Mede Dynasty affirms that it will execute, those found guilty under Imperial Law, of the crime of desertion from the Imperial Legion. This includes those who practiced unlawful aggression against the Aldmeri Dominion in defiance of the terms of the White Gold Concordat.

4) The Mede Dynasty affirms its continuation and guarantee of the Septim as the legal currency of Hammerfell, as well as its extension of pensions and support to those Redguard Legionnaires and their families who qualify, unless these legionnaires are disqualified from these rights as per article V.3.

___________________________

So, apparently, it IS in fact a peace treaty. But there are several elements worth noting:

 

Section I, 3 -- Mention is made concerning Orsinium, which if I read the maps correctly, in High Rock, adn therefore is _still_ in the Empire.

 

Section I, 4 -- the AD is paying reparations, But only to the Crowns. That may prove to be divisive, like oil revenue in Iraq was meant for all, but didn't seem to get fairly divided between the several factions. Nor does it specify the amount of reparations to be paid.

 

Section II, 3 -- The Crowns agree to suppress Talos worship.

 

Section II, 4 -- The Crowns tell the Forebears, "Thanks for your help." No other commitment or requirement or compensation is mentioned.

 

Section III, 2 -- I don't understand why this is even here. It requires the Forebears to have political marriages with the Empire.

 

Section V -- This part of a treaty between the AD and Hammerfell seems to bind the Empire and makes it a participant in non-Empire diplomatic relations.

 

Section V, 1 -- reaffirms that the Empire has severed Hammerfell from the Empire.

 

Section V, 2 -- reaffirms banning of Talos worship.

 

Section V, 3 -- THIS ONE IS A BIGGIE. Those Imperial soldiers that stayed in Hammerfell to help fight the AD (rather than going to Cyrodiil like good little Imperial soldiers are now deemed to be deserters and condemned to death by the Empire. At the very minimum, their pensions have been revoked if the Empire can't find and execute them.

 

Section V, 4 -- adds Redguard in the Imperial Legion that remained in Hammerfell to fight the AD to be added to the list of legionaires to be executed.

Edited August 27, 2015 by CaptainPatch