Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Elimc]

@CaptainPatch

 

The document you found is not official, it is a piece of apocrypha submitted to r/teslore by u/ Blackfyre87 ten months ago. Here is the link. You might want to find the author of something before you go around thinking it is a fact, or at least search it on r/teslore to make sure it is official and not apocrypha.

 

You don't know how Hammerfell is doing right now, or anything about the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai, but you seem to know that Hammerfell is utterly destroyed. However, even though we have evidence that the Empire is actually in chaos (see Cicero's Journals), you seem to think they are just fine, even though they also suffered from the AD taking over half their province. Although they may not have occupied Cyrodil for five years, it doesn't take long to salt the fields, burn buildings, and kill everyone in a city. Sure, southern Hammerfell would be in worse shape than Cyrodil, but we know that three of Cyrodil's cities fell to the AD, so you can't say Hammerfell is dying without applying the same logic to Cyrodil.

[NerevarII]

Quotes in spoilers

 

 

 

It all boils down to simply this .... would you rather fight for your freedom , and not be bent over by the Thalmor and rammed in the bum with their Long Yellow Pyadonean Fruit , and deal with racism ? Or would you rather be the Thalmor's play toy and fight with the weak-spirited Empire and willing , and happily , receive their Long Yellow Pyandonean fruit in your hind end ?

"I had an arm and leg amputated, but I'm still alive, and I'm bankrupt after paying for the surgery. But I count that as a BIG win."

 

The more correct quote should be, "It could have been worse."

 

@CaptainPatch

 

We do not know if the AD left because they thought Hammerfell was a waste of time since it wasn't part of the Empire, or because they were about to be defeated and signed a peace treaty rather than expose there weakness. That is really the point of this argument, and there is no proof either way. And you have no proof that Hammerfell is bankrupt and collapsing into civil war, since we haven't heard from it. It has the advantage of not being forced to pay a tribute to the AD, and only 4 cities were taken, which is enough to damage their economy, but not beyond recovery, especially if the AD intended to keep that part of Hammerfell until the last bit of the war, because then they wouldn't have had nearly as much time to destroy cities, harbors, and farms.

I am going to have to backpedal somewhat because I just found and read the specific terms of the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai:

THE SECOND TREATY OF STROS M'KAI

This being the Second Treaty signed on the Island of Stros M'Kai, entirely and without exception superseding the first such treaty as signed in the year 2E 864.

This treaty is penned to bring an end to the conflict within Hammerfell, between the Redguard People and the Aldmeri Dominion, and which began in 4E 171, between the Aldmeri Dominion and the Emperor of Cyrodiil, Titus Mede II.

SECTION I: THE PLEDGE OF THE ALDMERI DOMINION

1) For the misfortunes tragically wrought upon the Redguard people in the course of a conflict with a third party, and in pursuit of a cause unrelated to the people of Hammerfell- that cause being the abolition of worship of the false god Talos- the Aldmeri Dominion officially expresses its remorse. Moreover, it expresses its admiration to all the Redguards of Hammerfell for their undying courage in war and steadfastness without the military umbrella of the Imperial Legion.

2) The Aldmeri Dominion hereby renounces any and all claims to territory within the bounds of the old Province of Hammerfell, and renounces all rights it may have claimed within the Province, except within the territories of the Kingdom of Orsinium, where the Dominion reserves the right to stamp out the worship of Talos.

3) The Aldmeri Dominion also formally announces its complete withdrawal of military force from within Hammerfell except for that which is necessary to the maintenance of the two embassies to be conceded to the Dominion by this peace, the first to be maintained in the City of Sentinel, capital of the kingdom of the same name and in the Kingdom of Orsinium, as per that kingdom's adherence to the Imperial Writ of the Mede Dynasty, and the requisite ‘White Gold Concordat'.

4) The Aldmeri Dominion agrees to payment of generous reparations, to be paid directly to Hammerfell's ancestral rulers, the Crowns in trust of their wise judgement of Hammerfell's needs. This is to make just recompense, principally for the grievous damage to the Redguard's ancestral capital of Hegathe, as well as to the cities of Taneth, Skaven, Rihad and Gilane. These are cities which were assaulted at several points during the war.

SECTION II: THE PLEDGE OF THE CROWNS

1) The Crowns affirm their absolute right to sovereignty and religious and political noninterference from outside parties, and invite acknowledgement from all relevant parties of their just claim to leadership of the Redguards.

2) The Crowns hereby declare their acceptance, in trust for all Hammerfell, of the Thalmor's payment of reparations and any other funds deemed necessary for the continuation of the peace laid out in this treaty.

3) By virtue of consultation with Aldmeri scholars of religion, the Crowns acknowledge and agree with the Aldmeri stance against the heretical and unclean worship of the false god Talos, who is heretofore to be known only by his Cyrodiilic name of Tiber Septim.

4) The Crowns acknowledge the Forbears' assistance in the matter of the siege of Hegathe.

SECTION III: THE PLEDGE OF THE FORBEARS

1) The Forbears affirm through this treaty, their right to dignity and self determination within Hammerfell and their freedom of affiliation, of practic and of worship without compromise of their dignity as the first of the Redguard people to arrive in Tamriel.

2) The Royal House of Sentinel pledges to enter into Dynastic Marriage with the Mede Dynasty and with the Royal Houses of Wayrest and Daggerfall, all to be celebrated at the expense of the Imperial Chancery, the better to stand as guarantor of this treaty and to honor the brave Ra'Gada who gave their lives in defense of their homeland.

3) The Forbears acknowledge and stand as guarantor of the rights and patron of those citizens of Hammerfell who choose to venture beyond the realm's borders, whether in service to the Imperial Legion, Fighter's Guild or any other affiliation with honor worthy of Hammerfell.

4) The Forbears accept, in their role as guardians and patrons of those Redguards who have embraced Tamrielic customs, any and all monies paid by the Mede Dynasty, Wayrest and Daggerfall, for the purpose of pension for Imperial Legionnaires, for the purposes of planning the dynastic marriages, for trade and for any other means that is deemed necessary.

SECTION IV: THE PLEDGE OF THE LHOTUNIC & ALIK'R

1) The Lhotunic affirm and assert their right to respect and adherence of both Imperial and Yokudan manners without sacrifice of dignity or honor before their brethren.

2) The Lhotunic pledge themselves to respect of the territorial integrity of all factions, and advise that this territorial integrity is an internal matter for the factions involved, and exhort their brethren to follow this example.

3) The Lhotunic pledge themselves to honor and uphold their tradition of mediation between and protection of the stated traditions of all Redguard people, the better to protect the interests of Hammerfell and its allies.

4) The Alik'r pledge their acceptance, on condition of the other parties' fulfillment of their stated pledges, of this peace treaty, and their desire to return to the deserts.

SECTION V: THE PLEDGE OF THE MEDE DYNASTY

1) The Mede Dynasty renounces all of its previous claims to Imperial sovereignty over the princedoms of Hammerfell, with the exception of any territories held by the Kingdom of Orsinium, in addition to any other kingdoms or groups, within the borders of Hammerfell, which willingly choose alignment with, or oath-sworn vassalage to the Empire.

2) The Mede Dynasty renounces any form of endorsement or connection with any and all attempts by the Imperial Chapel to proliferate worship of Talos within Hammerfell. It furthermore advises that all such clerics who continue in this unlawful manner will be legally in schism with the Chapel, until such time as their actions demonstrate commitment to the decrees of the faith.

3) The Mede Dynasty affirms that it will execute, those found guilty under Imperial Law, of the crime of desertion from the Imperial Legion. This includes those who practiced unlawful aggression against the Aldmeri Dominion in defiance of the terms of the White Gold Concordat.

4) The Mede Dynasty affirms its continuation and guarantee of the Septim as the legal currency of Hammerfell, as well as its extension of pensions and support to those Redguard Legionnaires and their families who qualify, unless these legionnaires are disqualified from these rights as per article V.3.

___________________________

So, apparently, it IS in fact a peace treaty. But there are several elements worth noting:

 

Section I, 3 -- Mention is made concerning Orsinium, which if I read the maps correctly, in High Rock, adn therefore is _still_ in the Empire.

 

Section I, 4 -- the AD is paying reparations, But only to the Crowns. That may prove to be divisive, like oil revenue in Iraq was meant for all, but didn't seem to get fairly divided between the several factions. Nor does it specify the amount of reparations to be paid.

 

Section II, 3 -- The Crowns agree to suppress Talos worship.

 

Section II, 4 -- The Crowns tell the Forebears, "Thanks for your help." No other commitment or requirement or compensation is mentioned.

 

Section III, 2 -- I don't understand why this is even here. It requires the Forebears to have political marriages with the Empire.

 

Section V -- This part of a treaty between the AD and Hammerfell seems to bind the Empire and makes it a participant in non-Empire diplomatic relations.

 

Section V, 1 -- reaffirms that the Empire has severed Hammerfell from the Empire.

 

Section V, 2 -- reaffirms banning of Talos worship.

 

Section V, 3 -- THIS ONE IS A BIGGIE. Those Imperial soldiers that stayed in Hammerfell to help fight the AD (rather than going to Cyrodiil like good little Imperial soldiers are now deemed to be deserters and condemned to death by the Empire. At the very minimum, their pensions have been revoked if the Empire can't find and execute them.

 

Section V, 4 -- adds Redguard in the Imperial Legion that remained in Hammerfell to fight the AD to be added to the list of legionaires to be executed.

 

 

 

@CaptainPatch

 

We do not know if the AD left because they thought Hammerfell was a waste of time since it wasn't part of the Empire, or because they were about to be defeated and signed a peace treaty rather than expose there weakness. That is really the point of this argument, and there is no proof either way. And you have no proof that Hammerfell is bankrupt and collapsing into civil war, since we haven't heard from it. It has the advantage of not being forced to pay a tribute to the AD, and only 4 cities were taken, which is enough to damage their economy, but not beyond recovery, especially if the AD intended to keep that part of Hammerfell until the last bit of the war, because then they wouldn't have had nearly as much time to destroy cities, harbors, and farms.

 

@NerevarII

 

Please prove to me that Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are racist, and that Tullius and the Imperials aren't. And provide more evidence than a few Dunmer complaining that some nords don't like them, because "some nords" are not necessarily the Stormcloaks, and will act the same no matter who is in charge.

 

 

 

 

At captain patch , where did you see those quotes and what do they have to do with anything ? haha

 

At Elimc , do you pay attention to any dialogue in Skyrim ? Go run around windhelm , talk to everyone , including Ulfric and Galmar , and talk to those two as a race other than Nord , then go run around Skyrim and talk to anyone else on the side of the stormcloaks .. my proof is the dialogue and what is said :tongue:

What I can agree with is that not all of them are racist , but most are . I'd go run around talking to people to find direct exact quotes , but i'd much rather spend my time slaying dragons and trying to level my character to beat the Mod "Inferno - Envoys of End" (ridiculously hard , if you havent tried it yet , try it . You'll love it and hate it equally .)

 

But I think we can all agree none of us want to experience a potassium fortified edema .

 

Also , does any of this really matter since TES is nothing more than the dream of a sleeping Godhead ? TES Lore is ridiculous crazy cool .

Edited August 28, 2015 by NerevarII

[CaptainPatch]

 

 

It all boils down to simply this .... would you rather fight for your freedom , and not be bent over by the Thalmor and rammed in the bum with their Long Yellow Pyadonean Fruit , and deal with racism ? Or would you rather be the Thalmor's play toy and fight with the weak-spirited Empire and willing , and happily , receive their Long Yellow Pyandonean fruit in your hind end ?

"I had an arm and leg amputated, but I'm still alive, and I'm bankrupt after paying for the surgery. But I count that as a BIG win."

 

The more correct quote should be, "It could have been worse."

 

At captain patch , where did you see those quotes and what do they have to do with anything ? haha

I was trying to stress the difference between "We won!" and "At least we didn't lose." To my mind, to declare yourself the winner, you would have to at least hurt The Other Guy worse than he hurt you. In Hammerfell, unlike at the Battle of the Red Ring where the Empire DID win -- but at great cost -- other than breaking the siege at Hegathe, I really didn't see any Redguard victorious battles. LOTS of fighting and skirmishing, but nothing that would be labeled "The Battle of _________" where the Redguards were declared the victor. It's like WW1 without the Battle of the Somme, Battle of the Marne, Battle of Bellau Wood", et al. Just five years of grinding attrition.

 

The (totally unofficial) treaty text came from http://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/7669-the-second-treaty-of-stros-mkai-a-penitus-oculatus-analysis/

@CaptainPatch

 

The document you found is not official, it is a piece of apocrypha submitted to r/teslore by u/ Blackfyre87 ten months ago. Here is the link. You might want to find the author of something before you go around thinking it is a fact, or at least search it on r/teslore to make sure it is official and not apocrypha.

 

You don't know how Hammerfell is doing right now, or anything about the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai, but you seem to know that Hammerfell is utterly destroyed. However, even though we have evidence that the Empire is actually in chaos (see Cicero's Journals), you seem to think they are just fine, even though they also suffered from the AD taking over half their province. Although they may not have occupied Cyrodil for five years, it doesn't take long to salt the fields, burn buildings, and kill everyone in a city. Sure, southern Hammerfell would be in worse shape than Cyrodil, but we know that three of Cyrodil's cities fell to the AD, so you can't say Hammerfell is dying without applying the same logic to Cyrodil.

Well thank you for straightening me out on that score. I thought it was so official-looking, I thought maybe it had come from some Developer's Diary or something of the sort.

 

But by pointing out that there was NOTHING in the document that relates to actual Lore, it puts us right back where we were, with Hammerfell, needing to repair 5 years of war damage with little in the way of income to pay for those repairs.

 

I NEVER said that the Empire was "fine". Like every other empire in History, after having lost a major war there WILL be numerous intrigues revolving around replacing the losing emperor with someone that appears more competent. Invariably there will be several potential replacements squabbling between themselves as to just which ONE should be the replacement emperor. And the current emperor trying to squash such intrigues. Personally, I think the whole Empire is definitely on its last legs. What it really neeeds is a BIG win to restore confidence, but that just ain't gonna happen. A lot of people believe that the Empire MUST be preparing to start Great War, Part II, but I just don't see that. Since the Empire allows Thalmor patrols to crisscross the entire Empire, looking for Talos worshipers, they WILL have near-perfect Intelligence as to the status of the entire military power and unit dispositions. That is, there would be a ZERO chance of achieving Tactical surprise anywhere, and the AD will know far in advance if the Imperial forces have been rebuilt to the point where they could pose a credible threat.

 

The Thalmor had been fighting to keep Cyrodiil, right up until the Battle of the Red Ring. You do NOT "salt the earth" if you plan to retain possession. Then, after the battle, the AD didn't have anyone left in Cyrodiil to carry out such sabotage. There was still damage aplenty to be repaired, but nothing like what Rome did to Carthage after the Third Punic War.

 

You seem to forget that the AD had also captured Skaven. Nor do we know whether the AD was torching Gilane, Taneth, and Rihad as the last of the AD transports pulled out. It may even be that after five years of Occupation, they didn't need to torch anything.

[Elimc]

@CaptainPatch

 

At the end of those five years, the Redguards had hurt the AD so much that they couldn't/wouldn't stay in Hammerfell anymore. I mean, when you fight to defend your homeland, if at the end of the day you have your homeland in your possession, then you won.

 

The Thalmor had been trying to force TMII to surrender, they didn't think they would be able to take Cyrodil completely so they had decided to take the IC and get the Empire to surrender. So they might have been destroying everything they went past because they didn't want Cyrodil to be able to recover as easily.

 

I said that they captured for cities in Hammerfell, and three in Cyrodil.

 

@NerevarII

 

I know lots of nords are racist, but until you can prove that Ulfric or Galmar are actively being racist then you aren't going to convince me of anything. Galmar doesn't say anything racist that I can remember, except Skyrim for the Nords, but that just means that the nords should rule their own province.

[kimmera]

@CaptainPatch

 

At the end of those five years, the Redguards had hurt the AD so much that they couldn't/wouldn't stay in Hammerfell anymore. I mean, when you fight to defend your homeland, if at the end of the day you have your homeland in your possession, then you won.

 

The Thalmor had been trying to force TMII to surrender, they didn't think they would be able to take Cyrodil completely so they had decided to take the IC and get the Empire to surrender. So they might have been destroying everything they went past because they didn't want Cyrodil to be able to recover as easily.

 

I said that they captured for cities in Hammerfell, and three in Cyrodil.

 

@NerevarII

 

I know lots of nords are racist, but until you can prove that Ulfric or Galmar are actively being racist then you aren't going to convince me of anything. Galmar doesn't say anything racist that I can remember, except Skyrim for the Nords, but that just means that the nords should rule their own province.

 

Actually they thought they had the Empire beaten. Playing down taking the Capitol is like saying that France shouldn't have surrendered with the fall of Paris. It is easy to say but it ignores the fact that you have lost your central command with an army that has already been failing due to lack of coordination.

 

Also the Empire had already essentially been beaten. To defeat the AD at Imperial City the Empire had to call in everyone willing to come, on paper had insufficient troop strength, but through a combination of better leadership and better knowledge of the city, won anyway. They also might have had an element of surprise and some luck.

 

Those are not conditions that can be relied on.

[kimmera]

@CaptainPatch

 

We do not know if the AD left because they thought Hammerfell was a waste of time since it wasn't part of the Empire, or because they were about to be defeated and signed a peace treaty rather than expose there weakness. That is really the point of this argument, and there is no proof either way. And you have no proof that Hammerfell is bankrupt and collapsing into civil war, since we haven't heard from it. It has the advantage of not being forced to pay a tribute to the AD, and only 4 cities were taken, which is enough to damage their economy, but not beyond recovery, especially if the AD intended to keep that part of Hammerfell until the last bit of the war, because then they wouldn't have had nearly as much time to destroy cities, harbors, and farms.

 

@NerevarII

 

Please prove to me that Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are racist, and that Tullius and the Imperials aren't. And provide more evidence than a few Dunmer complaining that some nords don't like them, because "some nords" are not necessarily the Stormcloaks, and will act the same no matter who is in charge.

 

If the AD were about to be defeated, why would Hammerfell sign a treaty? The Great War says 5 years of stalemate 'fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill' (per The Great War'). Hammerfell's advances stopped, so why do you insist that the treaty was some sort of one sided plea from a failing AD?

[kimmera]

 

 

@NerevarII

 

I know lots of nords are racist, but until you can prove that Ulfric or Galmar are actively being racist then you aren't going to convince me of anything. Galmar doesn't say anything racist that I can remember, except Skyrim for the Nords, but that just means that the nords should rule their own province.

 

"For the Nords" is about as racist as you can get. It means that even if they were born in Skyrim, and even if their family had lived in Skyrim for generations, that a non-Nord should not be a Jarl or High King, and likely should be second choice at best for all other rights too.

 

It is saying that only Nords deserve proper representation within Skyrim. And any Nord that accepts diplomatic ties with outsiders (such as Torygg) is put down as 'not a true Nord.'

 

In what way is that not racist? Everything is framed in terms of race, not in terms of region.

[MidbossVyers]

You're right. Non-Nords should not be High King of Skyrim, just as non-Khajiits should not be Mane of Elsweyr, non-Dunmer should not be King of Morrowind, etc.

[kimmera]

You're right. Non-Nords should not be High King of Skyrim, just as non-Khajiits should not be Mane of Elsweyr, non-Dunmer should not be King of Morrowind, etc.

 

Why not? Why exactly should regions be run racially? If someone's family has been in the region for hundred's of years, in what way are they still not native to the region?

[NerevarII]

At Elimc , If you talk to ulfric or galmar or that assistant guy with galmar (forget his name) or any of the guards in there , they all keep saying you're in the wrong place , you can't join , practically "eff you because you're not a nord" .. go in there as something other than Nord , you'll see what I mean .

 

At captain patch , now that i see what you mean , I agree lol .