Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

They were outnumbered at the Battle of the Red Ring, but after it they were not, because all the Almeri troops in Cyrodil were dead.

 

Hammerfell would have accepted because they would be smart enough not to invade three provinces at once without any help.

 

Torygg was challenged because he allowed Talos worship to be outlawed, not because he had diplomatic ties with other races. Ulfric sends envoys to High Rock to ask for help, please explain why he does this if he is so racist.

 

Regions shouldn't be run racially, but since ALL of them are, you can't specifically blame Ulfric. Why should he and the nords have to be completely accepting of other races if no one else has to? You are holding him to a much higher standard than you are holding the Empire to. Tullius has several racist quotes I can pull up for you if you want, and how many non-Imperial Emperors have there been? None.

 

@NerevarII

 

I have never played a game as a nord, and almost always joined the Stormcloaks, and I have never found any evidence that Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are any more racist than Tullius and the Imperials.

[CaptainPatch]

@CaptainPatch

 

At the end of those five years, the Redguards had hurt the AD so much that they couldn't/wouldn't stay in Hammerfell anymore. I mean, when you fight to defend your homeland, if at the end of the day you have your homeland in your possession, then you won.

Okay, then, here's a basic question: Why would the AD want to stay in in the war-torn southern region of Hammerfell? What is there that makes all the hassle worth the investment? If, as you suggest, the Redguards would absolutely refuse to stop fighting the AD, the Maintenance cost would be to keep a standing army present and then keep it supplied from Summerset Isle (because resource gathering locally problematic because of rambunctious Redguards continually ambushing farmers and resource gatherers). What is left in southern Hammerfell remains that would be worth that kind of cost?

[NerevarII]

I have no idea the , ElimC , maybe you're just loved by everybody haha

[Elimc]

@CaptainPatch

 

Because southern Hammerfell is fertile, and if they had taken it quickly then it wouldn't be destroyed by war, since the fighting would have been over in a few days. The AD might have destroyed all they could before they pulled out, but I find it unlikely that they would spend five years destroying it, the cost of lives would offset the benefits of destroying every last harbor they could find. You are making a lot of assumptions about the state of Hammerfell that we have no facts on, if the AD took it quickly it would be in good condition unless they decided to burn it. Hammerfell would also provide a good place for them to attack Cyrodil from, as well as resources.

 

@NerevarII

 

Please go get some quotes from uesp before you come back, it will take like thirty seconds. If you are just going to come here and not bring anything to the discussion, then why don't you just leave?

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

They were outnumbered at the Battle of the Red Ring, but after it they were not, because all the Almeri troops in Cyrodil were dead.

 

Hammerfell would have accepted because they would be smart enough not to invade three provinces at once without any help.

 

Torygg was challenged because he allowed Talos worship to be outlawed, not because he had diplomatic ties with other races. Ulfric sends envoys to High Rock to ask for help, please explain why he does this if he is so racist.

 

Regions shouldn't be run racially, but since ALL of them are, you can't specifically blame Ulfric. Why should he and the nords have to be completely accepting of other races if no one else has to? You are holding him to a much higher standard than you are holding the Empire to. Tullius has several racist quotes I can pull up for you if you want, and how many non-Imperial Emperors have there been? None.

 

@NerevarII

 

I have never played a game as a nord, and almost always joined the Stormcloaks, and I have never found any evidence that Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are any more racist than Tullius and the Imperials.

 

All the AD troops in that battle were dead. Or are you saying that Hammerfell was fighting no one at all, yet only achieving a standstill? There is zero information on AD reserve levels.

 

There were Nords before Talos showed up, so how could accepting a ban on Talos worship equate to not being a 'true Nord?' What if a High King simply decided Talos worship was a problem for some other reason? What if they simply didn't like Talos? Does that mean they are not a 'true Nord?' Why does Ulfric get to decide what is or is not a true Nord?

 

And yes, it is possible that Hammerfell is miraculously a garden of Eden with abundant resources, but frankly you are pulling such arguments out of a hat.

 

Finally, if you are telling people who disagree with you to 'just leave' perhaps you are the one who has run out of valid arguments. Civil discussion is a good thing. Telling people to leave is not civil. That is a moderator's place, not your place, not mine.

[CaptainPatch]

 

Torygg was challenged because he allowed Talos worship to be outlawed, not because he had diplomatic ties with other races. Ulfric sends envoys to High Rock to ask for help, please explain why he does this if he is so racist.

I just skimmed everything I could find on the duel, and in point of fact, all any of them say is that Ulffric challenged Torygg for the right to be High King." Other than that, there is no speculation as to why Ulffric was issuing the challenge, other than everyone assumed that he had come to Solitude to further argue for Skyrim to declare its independence from the Empire.

In all of the Ulffric conversations that I have heard coming out of Ulffric when he was talking to Galmar, Jorleif, or anyone else, all he ever complains about concerning Torygg was his willingness to continue to serve a bloated and corrupt Empire that has forgotten everything there is to know about Honor. I never heard anything from Ulffric about Torygg having enforced the ban on Talos worship.

@CaptainPatch

 

Because southern Hammerfell is fertile, and if they had taken it quickly then it wouldn't be destroyed by war, since the fighting would have been over in a few days. The AD might have destroyed all they could before they pulled out, but I find it unlikely that they would spend five years destroying it, the cost of lives would offset the benefits of destroying every last harbor they could find. You are making a lot of assumptions about the state of Hammerfell that we have no facts on, if the AD took it quickly it would be in good condition unless they decided to burn it. Hammerfell would also provide a good place for them to attack Cyrodil from, as well as resources.

Well, we do know that it is NOT desert. But whether or not it qualifies for "fertile" -- "...rich, alluvial soil..." -- is anybody's guess. For all we know, it may be rocky, like much of Skyrim.

 

I don't understand your "the cost in lives would offset the benefits of destroying every last harbor they could find." What cost in lives? Do you imagine the ONLY reason they stuck around was to ruin the harbors? The Thalmor sappers in boats along the coast wouldn't be at risk at all because all the Redguards were North and West of that portion that the AD held. There's this thing called "multitasking" where strategic planners can actually work on multiple projects simultaneously.

 

They really wouldn't need a base in Hammerfell to attack the Empire. They already demonstrated that when they launched the Great War. They also have all of Valenwood and Elswyr available for border crossings. [And who knows. Maybe the Redguards are soooooo pissed at the Empire for having thrown them under the bus, they may even let the AD base out of East Hammerfell to launch a new war against the Empire. :wink: :laugh: ]

[NerevarII]

I think you need to relax ElimC , and take your own advice . Go find those quotes yourself lol . I didn't come here with bad intent . I came here with something . I'm thinking you're afraid of being wrong , which is why you don't want to look it up or play the game again to see for yourself . I'm not going to do the work for you my friend , especially because truth sticks better when you see it for yourself . Also , ElimC , I'm not trying to be rude , just accurate , and you can't base truth off of your own experiences . That's just ignorant . Just because you didn't experience something (most likely just don't remember) , doesn't mean others haven't experienced it . A quick google search will show you many , including me as I've stated previously , have experienced racism , and underlying tones and implied racism . I'm not going to start a new game just to prove my point . But I'll try and keep track from now on if it means that much to you , and the next time I do start a new character , which may not be for a long while , I'll be sure to screenshot or write-down every quote I come across . Though , that's already been done for most . Google is your friend .

Edited August 29, 2015 by NerevarII

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

I said all the AD troops in Cyrodil were dead, and even if they had left some behind to hold Anvil and Kvatch, they would have been small forces, since the main army was at the IC.

 

Ulfric didn't kill Torygg because he wasn't a "true nord", he killed him because he was a bad leader who didn't care about freedom of religion.

 

@CaptianPatch

 

The UESP page on Hammerfell says "Hammerfell is a barren and rocky place, the vast Alik'r desert taking up most of it, with fertile grassland only on the coasts.", so I think it is fertile, but since I haven't played Redguard I really don't know for sure. And while the AD did surprise the Empire in the Great War, it will be hard for them to do it twice, but having a longer border would help.

 

The Redguards were fighting the AD the whole time they were in Hammerfell, so AD soldiers were dying to keep possesion of the land they had. I don't think that they would have fought for five years to occupy Hammerfell if they didn't want to control it.

 

 

@NerevarII

 

I don't have to prove that Ulfric is innocent, you have to prove he is guilty. You can't do that without quotes, so why don't you get some?

[fraquar]

Germany invaded through the Ardennes Forest thrice, but the first two were 30 years apart. It's lunacy to expect any army (or navy) to use the same tactic in the same place twice in the same war. Germany tried, and was eventually mauled to death afterwards (Bulge) after initial gains - they overextended their supply lines (really they had no supply lines - they ran out of gas.....). It was a suicide mission.

 

If the AD was in an inhospitable place after 5 years, it's because they eventually got their @55 kicked. Like Germany in WWII, it's likely their logistics dried up and couldn't support their army any longer. Much, much likelier to happen to an invading force (AD - especially after 5 years) then a defending one.

 

Hammerfell was right in refusing the terms of the treaty and eventually getting booted from the Empire because of it, because the Empire leadership was soft, and was only worried about their own little piece of turf. They compromised the two greatest military powers in their Empire as a result (Redguards and Nords).

Edited August 29, 2015 by fraquar

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

I said all the AD troops in Cyrodil were dead, and even if they had left some behind to hold Anvil and Kvatch, they would have been small forces, since the main army was at the IC.

 

Ulfric didn't kill Torygg because he wasn't a "true nord", he killed him because he was a bad leader who didn't care about freedom of religion.

 

@CaptianPatch

 

The UESP page on Hammerfell says "Hammerfell is a barren and rocky place, the vast Alik'r desert taking up most of it, with fertile grassland only on the coasts.", so I think it is fertile, but since I haven't played Redguard I really don't know for sure. And while the AD did surprise the Empire in the Great War, it will be hard for them to do it twice, but having a longer border would help.

 

The Redguards were fighting the AD the whole time they were in Hammerfell, so AD soldiers were dying to keep possesion of the land they had. I don't think that they would have fought for five years to occupy Hammerfell if they didn't want to control it.

 

 

@NerevarII

 

I don't have to prove that Ulfric is innocent, you have to prove he is guilty. You can't do that without quotes, so why don't you get some?

 

Again, you ignore the fact you have no clue what AD reserve levels are like. In the rhetoric, Talos worship and following Ulfric is used as the definition of a 'true Nord.' No compromise. If it had been a ban on daedric worship, it seems unlikely that Ulfric would have been so ready to go to war. Galmar's dialogue includes this gem:

 

• "I still think you should take them all out like you did with dead King Torygg." (Regarding Ulfric's complex plans for gaining loyalty of many of Skyrim's common folk and noble Jarls)

 

i.e. he is advocating genocide against all non-believers.

 

Will Hammerfell be able to remain united? Who knows. They aren't part of the Empire now regardless. You want to separate Skyrim and have Skyrim take on the Thalmor alone too, despite the fact that it was Imperial troops who rallied and united the Redguard (even if they were troops left behind who later abandoned the Empire, they were Imperial trained). It was Imperial generals who orchestrated and won the Battle of the Red Ring. You overestimate available tangible resources such as troops and weapons and supply and underestimate intangible resources such as military strategy.