Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

If the AD had a huge amount of reserves just waiting to destroy everyone, then why didn't they use them in Hammerfell or in Cyrodil? The only reason they attacked the IC was to get the Empire to surrender because they realized that the Empire would beat them if the war went on for a long time. Daedra worship has a very high chance of getting innocents killed, there is a reason that all the shrines are in the wilderness. It is simply that Daedra and their worshipers are likely to kill you.

 

Galmar is saying Ulfric should challenge all of the Jarls to duels instead of taking their cities by force, not seeing how that is genocide. He simply doesn't want to get all of his soldiers killed in battle.

 

Skyrim wouldn't take on the AD alone, they would ally with Hammerfell and possibly High Rock to fight them. Although the troops who won the Battle of the Red Ring did report to TMII, they were not all Imperials and neither were all of their generals. They were simply serving in the Imperial legion. I could say you overestimate the AD's troops and weapons and supply, we know little of Hammerfell other than 4 of it's cities were sacked, and we know little of the AD other than they lost their entire main army in Cyrodil and eventually pulled out of Hammerfell. Neither of those are confirmed by evidence, so we are just speculating.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

If the AD had a huge amount of reserves just waiting to destroy everyone, then why didn't they use them in Hammerfell or in Cyrodil? The only reason they attacked the IC was to get the Empire to surrender because they realized that the Empire would beat them if the war went on for a long time. Daedra worship has a very high chance of getting innocents killed, there is a reason that all the shrines are in the wilderness. It is simply that Daedra and their worshipers are likely to kill you.

 

Galmar is saying Ulfric should challenge all of the Jarls to duels instead of taking their cities by force, not seeing how that is genocide. He simply doesn't want to get all of his soldiers killed in battle.

 

Skyrim wouldn't take on the AD alone, they would ally with Hammerfell and possibly High Rock to fight them. Although the troops who won the Battle of the Red Ring did report to TMII, they were not all Imperials and neither were all of their generals. They were simply serving in the Imperial legion. I could say you overestimate the AD's troops and weapons and supply, we know little of Hammerfell other than 4 of it's cities were sacked, and we know little of the AD other than they lost their entire main army in Cyrodil and eventually pulled out of Hammerfell. Neither of those are confirmed by evidence, so we are just speculating.

 

Because they estimated the strength of Cyrodill, took the capital and though they had the Empire beat. The Empire pulled everything they could to Cyrodiil and kicked them out of Imperial City again, but then was willing to agree to the terms the AD demanded before the war.

 

In Hammerfell they didn't pull out until they had secured a treaty with Hammerfell.

 

Assuming they kept nothing in reserve for home defense, internal policing, etc is a pretty wild assumption.

 

You keep talking about Hamerfell rebuilding quickly, but New Orleans isn't completely rebuilt a decade after Katerina, and that is one city in a very prosperous nation. Four out of five cities sacked is presumably not quite so easy to recover from.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Why didn't the AD use them in Cyrodil to force the Empire into surrendering earlier, or use them to actually win in Hammerfell. They weren't completely defeated, but they for sure did not win.

 

They kept what they needed for internal policing, if they withdrew those forces then Valenwood might rebel again.

 

Four out of nine cities sacked is different than for out of five, and even if they were completely destroyed it wouldn't take too long to rebuild, since a hurricane does a lot more damage than an army. Also, New Orleans is much larger and has much more stuff to rebuild than cities in the medieval era. Although it might have taken a while to recover, 21 years is enough time to rebuild farms, mines and ports, so even if their cities don't have as many buildings as they used too, they might have recovered enough to be able to fight another war with the AD, assuming they are not alone. Of course, it is possible that Hammerfell is in a state of poverty and hasn't rebuilt at all, but we don't know.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

Why didn't the AD use them in Cyrodil to force the Empire into surrendering earlier, or use them to actually win in Hammerfell. They weren't completely defeated, but they for sure did not win.

 

They kept what they needed for internal policing, if they withdrew those forces then Valenwood might rebel again.

 

Four out of nine cities sacked is different than for out of five, and even if they were completely destroyed it wouldn't take too long to rebuild, since a hurricane does a lot more damage than an army. Also, New Orleans is much larger and has much more stuff to rebuild than cities in the medieval era. Although it might have taken a while to recover, 21 years is enough time to rebuild farms, mines and ports, so even if their cities don't have as many buildings as they used too, they might have recovered enough to be able to fight another war with the AD, assuming they are not alone. Of course, it is possible that Hammerfell is in a state of poverty and hasn't rebuilt at all, but we don't know.

 

They didn't use them because the only reason you commit everything is if you absolutely have to do so. You can't be completely sure of what the enemy has and need to cover your flanks.

 

Four out of nine is still a much larger percentage of Hammerfell than New Orleans is of the US, and since the AD toss battle magic around, I think you underestimate the damage an army can do when not constrained by the limitations of the battle having to be visible to the player (i.e. scripting dynamic property damage is very non-trivial, but writing it into the lore doesn't have that level of constraint).

 

You are assuming that the mines are limitless and resources are all renewable. Any wood that was imported over large periods of time would be difficult to replace, even over 20 years. Sandstone buildings take considerable time and effort to replace. It took six years between laying the keel for the HMS Victory and it's launch, and that was with abundant supplies. It took considerable additional time before it was actually commissioned into service.

[CaptainPatch]

Ulfric didn't kill Torygg because he wasn't a "true nord", he killed him because he was a bad leader who didn't care about freedom of religion.

 

@CaptianPatch

 

The UESP page on Hammerfell says "Hammerfell is a barren and rocky place, the vast Alik'r desert taking up most of it, with fertile grassland only on the coasts.", so I think it is fertile, but since I haven't played Redguard I really don't know for sure. And while the AD did surprise the Empire in the Great War, it will be hard for them to do it twice, but having a longer border would help.

 

The Redguards were fighting the AD the whole time they were in Hammerfell, so AD soldiers were dying to keep possesion of the land they had. I don't think that they would have fought for five years to occupy Hammerfell if they didn't want to control it.

I don't recall Ullfric EVER saying he killed Torygg because the High King had failed to protect Freedom of Religion. Anybody got a direct quote that suggests as much? I do recall Ullfric indicating that Torygg was a poor ruler because he didn't properly respect the Old Ways, which is to say, "not a true Nord".

 

Okay, I'll grant "fertile", but it would be necessary to know just how thick that fertile band along the coast is. It would have to be large enough -- and have enough farmers -- to feed most of the entire province.

 

Like kimmera pointed out, it has been done before in Real Life History. Heck, just look at the llloooonnnnggg list of Norse invasions of the isle of Britain. Everybody knew where the Vikings were coming from, but over and over again they achieved complete surprise on the defenders.

 

DO keep in mind that all that time, Redguards were also dying. Who do you think was likely to run out of soldiers first? In contrast, the ONLY Thalmor in Hammerfell were military. The AD still had "the homefires burning", back in Summerset Isle, Valenwood, and Elswyr. What kind of civilian logistical support could the Redguards expect from ONE province, half of which is Occupied or being used as battlefields?

 

Did you ever think that perhaps the Thalmor might also hold the same attitude of "We can't stop now! If we did, all that blood we spent to get here would have been for nothing!"? But seeing as how BOTH sides of the conflict concluded further fighting was pointless, it becomes an evaluation of, "Is what is left of southern Hammerfell worth spending more blood?" For the AD, it becomes a simple cost/benefit calculation. It being Hammerfell real estate, the Redguards might conceivably conclude, "Better that every Redguard die rather than allow any amount of Hammerfell to be polluted by a foreign presence!". Give them enough time to catch their breath, rebuild and reorganize, and it would be as close to a Sure Thing as you can get that sooner or later, the Redguards would break the truce by springing their own surprise attack. Which is why it was very important for the Thalmor to calculate whether or not there was adequate Profit from southern Hammerfell to warrant a further expenditure of soldiers and Treasury. Events demonstrate the AD conclusion to that evaluation.

@Kimmera

 

If the AD had a huge amount of reserves just waiting to destroy everyone, then why didn't they use them in Hammerfell or in Cyrodil? The only reason they attacked the IC was to get the Empire to surrender because they realized that the Empire would beat them if the war went on for a long time.

 

Skyrim wouldn't take on the AD alone, they would ally with Hammerfell and possibly High Rock to fight them. Although the troops who won the Battle of the Red Ring did report to TMII, they were not all Imperials and neither were all of their generals. They were simply serving in the Imperial legion.

I think you aren't familiar with military movement rates for this tech level. On average, an army was lucky if it made 10 miles per day. A forced march might squeeze in as much as 15-20 miles per day, but at a cost of manpower attrition of a significant percentage and loss of combat effectiveness when finally arriving at the battlefield. For all we know, the AD Reserves may very well have been en route to the Imperial City, but was still a llloooonnnngggg way from there when the Battle of the Red Ring was decided. There are always at least a few survivors from any major defeat that seem to travel at inhuman speeds, spreading word of the disaster. Time for the Reserve to reverse course and beat feet to someplace that was NOT Cyrodiil. [And don't even imagine that the Imperials could have mounted an effective pursuit. ^^That notification to the advancing Reserves could have happened as far away as the Valenwood or Elswyr border.]

 

What an imagination you have! "The AD knew they would lose to the Empire"? Wow. How incredibly insanely stupid the emperor and his advisors and generals must be not to have recognized such an obvious fact.

 

You DO realize that High Rock is still part of the Empire, right? As for Hammerfell joining with Skyrim to fight the AD, just look at a map of Tamriel -- http://www.uesp.net/w/images/c/c3/TamrielMap.jpg. Which of the two provinces do you think would be where most of the fighting took place against an empire based in Summerset Isle? If the war were between Skyrim and the AD, I wouldn't expect any help from Hammerfell. They've just managed to repair the damage from the Great War (if that much). Do you think they would willingly risk having Hammerfell trashed again, for Skyrim?

 

If soldiers and generals serve IN the Legion, they are by definition "Imperial" soldiers and generals.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Of course they wouldn't have used all of them, but if they had a huge number of reserves surely some of them would have been put into battle, and since they been recently stopped in Hammerfell, wouldn't they have sent them there to make sure their armies could keep moving forwards?

 

Wooden building wouldn't take long to build, and since the AD controlled less than half of Hammerfell they couldn't have destroyed all the trees, even if they were trying. Yes, sandstone buildings would take longer to replace, but you don't need sandstone to build a farm, port or mine, and once those are built the Redguards won't need to import as many materials to rebuild the cities. I don't think all of the mines in Hammerfell are dry, but I can't prove that.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

"I killed Torygg to prove our wretched condition. How is a High King supposed to be the defender of Skyrim if he can't even defend himself?" He killed Torygg to prove that Skyrim was growing weak under the rule of the Empire.

 

If you want to know the geography of Hammerfell, TESA Redguard might help, but I haven't played it so I don't know either.

 

I know it is possible to invade the same place twice and be successful, having a larger border for the enemy to defend would make it easier.

 

Possibly. That is speculation.

 

They still would have attacked the IC with most of their troops, since they would have thought TMII was going to make a last stand there. Their reserves probably would have stayed in reserve, but the main army was in the IC.

 

"In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all." Why would they try to end the war with a conditional surrender if they could just waltz right in and kill everyone?

 

I think Hammerfell would be very angry at the AD for trashing their province, and would take any chance they could to get allies to help them fight the AD.

 

They are Imperial, but a lot of them are now either in Hammerfell being independent or in Skyrim being rebels.

[MidbossVyers]

By the way, what is the Thalmor leadership? Most other nations have kings or emperors, but what about the Aldmeri Dominion of the 4th Era?

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

Of course they wouldn't have used all of them, but if they had a huge number of reserves surely some of them would have been put into battle, and since they been recently stopped in Hammerfell, wouldn't they have sent them there to make sure their armies could keep moving forwards?

 

Wooden building wouldn't take long to build, and since the AD controlled less than half of Hammerfell they couldn't have destroyed all the trees, even if they were trying. Yes, sandstone buildings would take longer to replace, but you don't need sandstone to build a farm, port or mine, and once those are built the Redguards won't need to import as many materials to rebuild the cities. I don't think all of the mines in Hammerfell are dry, but I can't prove that.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

"I killed Torygg to prove our wretched condition. How is a High King supposed to be the defender of Skyrim if he can't even defend himself?" He killed Torygg to prove that Skyrim was growing weak under the rule of the Empire.

 

If you want to know the geography of Hammerfell, TESA Redguard might help, but I haven't played it so I don't know either.

 

I know it is possible to invade the same place twice and be successful, having a larger border for the enemy to defend would make it easier.

 

Possibly. That is speculation.

 

They still would have attacked the IC with most of their troops, since they would have thought TMII was going to make a last stand there. Their reserves probably would have stayed in reserve, but the main army was in the IC.

 

"In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all." Why would they try to end the war with a conditional surrender if they could just waltz right in and kill everyone?

 

I think Hammerfell would be very angry at the AD for trashing their province, and would take any chance they could to get allies to help them fight the AD.

 

They are Imperial, but a lot of them are now either in Hammerfell being independent or in Skyrim being rebels.

 

They might have committed some of those reserves subsequently to Hammerfell. They were holding the line against Hammerfell after the WGC. It is very unlikely they committed everything. They couldn't be sure the Empire wouldn't likewise break the treaty and continue after all.

 

Wooden buildings wouldn't take long to build if there is available wood. Hammerfell is not exactly a forest region. Any significant quantities of wood would have to be imported, and that would require ships, which they likely do not have and/or money, of which they also likely are short on. Again, you are pulling strategic resources out of your hat. Mines deplete in RL. They don't have infinite resources. Rebuilding would require considerable resources and even if they weren't depleted yet in the aftermath of the war, rebuilding would be very taxing on their remaining reserves.

 

Killing a king does not prove that king was a poor leader, only that they were poor in personal combat. Ulfric had been to war, fighting the Dominion directly. Torygg hadn't been. So Ulfric had more skill in personal combat. That does not mean Ulfric had more skill in actually running a country. Moreover, we know from the Thalmor dossiers that the Thalmor deliberately led Ulfric to believe he was some sort of amazingly effective leader. Ulfric bought that line.

 

They accepted a conditional surrender because the conditions were pretty much exactly what they were demanding from the beginning. Actually taking over would have meant committing troops to Cyrodill (and Skyrim) long term, but they didn't need that at this time. They got what they were after. Just waltzing in and killing everyone is harder than it sounds. For that matter, for all we know the Thalmor plan requires a significant human population to be alive. We don't know the full details of their plan, and are making assumptions based on conventional warfare, despite the fact the AD are playing a long game. They set up Ulfric as a pawn in that game on their side. What about that makes him a good man to back?

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

They wouldn't need to commit everything, just enough to hold back the Reguards. If they had a large reserve force like you claim, then they would have been able to do that. The fact that they didn't is why I think they left few forces behind, hoping to shock the Empire into surrendering.

 

High Rock could be sympathetic to Hammerfell, and since Hegathe held out the trees west of it would be fine, and Northern Hammerfell is not desert either so it might have trees. Even if they do have to buy wood from High Rock, it doesn't cost a fortune to build a settlement. It would take a lot longer if they had to buy the wood, sure, but 21 years is plenty of time.

 

It proves the king was a poor leader because he accepted the challenge. If he was a good king he would have refused the challenge, and when Ulfric called for a moot, he would have won it because he was such a good king. The Thalmor Dossier never says that they told Ulfric he was a great leader, and if he isn't a great leader, then how did he manage to get half of Skyrim behind him? You don't just convince half a country to rebel without being a good leader.

 

They weren't trying to force the Empire to surrender until just before the Battle of the Red Ring, before that they were just advancing into the Empire, taking over all the cities they came across.

 

Ulfric only helps the Thalmor if he doesn't win, if he loses quickly then he still helps them by having the rebellion kill people, if it is a stalemate then he helps them by making the rebellion kill a lot of people, but if he wins quickly then he breaks their plans.

[kimmera]

They did hold back the Redguards though. The 5 years after the WGC were a stalemate with neither side gaining or losing ground.

 

High Rock is recovering from a former Dragonborn making his own bid to ascend and take over. Shipping from High Rock would not be trivial. There are reasons the Canadian North has a low population.

 

If Torygg had refused the challenge, then Ulfric would have been whining that Torygg is a coward and likely would have started the civil war anyway. Ulfric got half of Skyrim behind him by doing what pretty much every politician in history has done, namely telling the people what they want to hear during an economic downturn. Being a popular leader does not equate with being a good leader.

 

They weren't trying to force the Empire to surrender before the war. That wasn't one of the demands. The demands that got accepted in the WGC were almost identical to the ultimatum the AD gave the Empire before the war, i.e. 'do these things or we will attack.'

 

Why are you assuming that an Ulfric win is bad for the Thalmor? It means the Empire is further divided, that Skyrim is rejecting the leadership that won the Battle of the Red Ring despite the odds being against them otherwise, and the same leadership program that trained those who rallied Hammerfell. The Thalmor are obviously better off with a longer civil war, but that does not mean that they are worse off with an Ulfric win than with an Empire win. If you listen to Tullius, you'd realize that the Empire also intends to go another round with the AD.

 

You are tossing out hundreds of years of experience in favour of a temper tantrum.