Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[CaptainPatch]

@Kimmera

 

Of course they wouldn't have used all of them, but if they had a huge number of reserves surely some of them would have been put into battle, and since they been recently stopped in Hammerfell, wouldn't they have sent them there to make sure their armies could keep moving forwards?

 

Wooden building wouldn't take long to build, and since the AD controlled less than half of Hammerfell they couldn't have destroyed all the trees, even if they were trying. Yes, sandstone buildings would take longer to replace, but you don't need sandstone to build a farm, port or mine, and once those are built the Redguards won't need to import as many materials to rebuild the cities. I don't think all of the mines in Hammerfell are dry, but I can't prove that.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

"I killed Torygg to prove our wretched condition. How is a High King supposed to be the defender of Skyrim if he can't even defend himself?" He killed Torygg to prove that Skyrim was growing weak under the rule of the Empire.

 

I know it is possible to invade the same place twice and be successful, having a larger border for the enemy to defend would make it easier.

 

Possibly. That is speculation.

 

They still would have attacked the IC with most of their troops, since they would have thought TMII was going to make a last stand there. Their reserves probably would have stayed in reserve, but the main army was in the IC.

 

"In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all." Why would they try to end the war with a conditional surrender if they could just waltz right in and kill everyone?

 

I think Hammerfell would be very angry at the AD for trashing their province, and would take any chance they could to get allies to help them fight the AD.

 

They are Imperial, but a lot of them are now either in Hammerfell being independent or in Skyrim being rebels.

Every large military formation (regiment-sized or larger) maintains a formal Reserve; it's not just the entire Military having just one Reserve. Reserves are only ever committed for one of two reasons: 1) to bolster a line that looks like it is about to break, or has just been breached (emphasis on it just happened), or 2) to exploit a breach made in the enemy line. On a grander scale, large nations and empires invariably have Guard units that have the honor of staying close to the emperor and protecting him. (Like the Roman Praetorian Guards.) Theoretically they are "the best of the best". Emperors do NOT like to commit their Guard units unless they really, really need to punch through the enemy line. (Xerxes committing the Immortals at Thermopylae or Napoleon committing the Old Guard at Waterloo.) The reason for the reluctance is because if the Guard fails (as they did at both Thermopylae and Waterloo), it can shatter the Morale of the entire army almost instantaneously. In Hammerfell, the military situation was in absolute stalemate; no breaking through in either direction, so no reason to commit the Reserves. At the Imperial City, it was already too late because Reserves could never arrive in time to alter the outcome.

 

Given Destruction Magic, how hard would it be to completely collapse a mine in its entirety? Just set fire to all of the wooden beam supports and gravity would do the rest. Thereafter, there might be ore in the veins, but thousand of tons of rock would need to be removed and all the replacement bracing would need to be jacked into place before the first pound of ore could be extracted. Times however many mines the Thalmor collapsed.

 

The "I killed Torygg" quote says nothing about Torygg having failed to defend Freedom of Religion. And there's a reason why Civilization has moved beyond the Ruler being the mightiest warrior. Mighty warriors know how to fight, but usually they suck at Administration. When it comes to managing an empire a really good Administrator is easily worth ten Mighty Warriors. ["When all you have is a hammer, all problems start to look like nails."]

 

"More is better than less" is what you are saying? What about the difference between Infinity and Infinity +1? That is to say, even absent access to Hammerfell, the options still available to the AD is probably adequate to its needs.

 

Speculating is all we CAN do in the absence of precise information.

 

You left out the word "available". Forces out by the borders were of no use to a battle taking place in the Imperial City. Forces en route don't become a factor unless they have already arrived. [i have to wonder about just how much the Imperial attack may have taken the Thalmor by surprise. They may have been kicking back, thinking that the war was all but won when suddenly there is an entire army knocking at the door. [One that is very familiar with all the secret ways to slip into the city, inside all defenses the Thalmor had put in place. Which can easily account for why the Empire forces won, despite being outnumbered.]

 

Again, "all available" is subject to definitions. It could be the author's conclusion that Guard units in the Capital are already committed, and therefore would be unavailable. But in practice, there are circumstances where an empire would strip its own defenses and "send in the Guard". The author may also have excluded forces that he felt were deployed too far away to realistically be committed to a theater of operations several hundred away. Like in WW2, "all available" forces for the Western Front would NOT even consider stripping units from the Eastern Front and send them West.

 

I agree that Hammerfell would be eager to issue some payback to the AD, but not at the risk of having Hammerfell trashed AGAIN. There's a difference between Revenge and suicidal Rage. Good leaders do not succumb to Rage.

 

Yeah, but they honed their skills and talent while serving in the Legion. And they remain Imperial Legion veterans.

@Kimmera

 

They wouldn't need to commit everything, just enough to hold back the Reguards. If they had a large reserve force like you claim, then they would have been able to do that. The fact that they didn't is why I think they left few forces behind, hoping to shock the Empire into surrendering.

 

High Rock could be sympathetic to Hammerfell, and since Hegathe held out the trees west of it would be fine, and Northern Hammerfell is not desert either so it might have trees. Even if they do have to buy wood from High Rock, it doesn't cost a fortune to build a settlement. It would take a lot longer if they had to buy the wood, sure, but 21 years is plenty of time.

 

It proves the king was a poor leader because he accepted the challenge. If he was a good king he would have refused the challenge, and when Ulfric called for a moot, he would have won it because he was such a good king. The Thalmor Dossier never says that they told Ulfric he was a great leader, and if he isn't a great leader, then how did he manage to get half of Skyrim behind him? You don't just convince half a country to rebel without being a good leader.

 

They weren't trying to force the Empire to surrender until just before the Battle of the Red Ring, before that they were just advancing into the Empire, taking over all the cities they came across.

 

Ulfric only helps the Thalmor if he doesn't win, if he loses quickly then he still helps them by having the rebellion kill people, if it is a stalemate then he helps them by making the rebellion kill a lot of people, but if he wins quickly then he breaks their plans.

You are assuming that they want to hold that real estate, no matter what the cost. The Thalmor have no emotional attachment to Hammerfell real estate the same as Redguards do. (Other than, "Think of the blood and treasure we have already spent just to get here.") A competent ruler/leader will evaluate the probable cost versus the probable gain. They had five years to gather all of the loose valuables and ship them off to Summerset Isle. Likewise much in the way of resource extraction. Sticking around to gather more resources comes at the cost of not only maintaining the ongoing resource extraction overhead, but also the cost of maintaining a large enough military force to keep the Redguards away from the resource gatherers. That makes the whole operation too close to just break-even (or less) to warrant the investment. The truce treaty was too good of an opportunity to pass up. It freed the AD to calmly pack up and head back home for some much needed R&R, unmolested.

 

High Rock is _still_ part of the Empire, and for them to allocate regular military forces to such a campaign would require the emperor to give his okay for them to do so. For him to do so is essentially the same as declaring war on the AD. (Empire forces attacking AD forces = war). At best, such an effort might be able to attract High Rock volunteers ("foreign fighters"). But too many of those and it becomes almost identical to the Empire giving its tacit blessing to an attack on the AD. [Think back to just why it was that the USA attacked Afghanistan. It was because Afghanistan was "aiding and abetting" the people that had attacked the World Trade Center; NOT because Afghanistan itself had attacked the USA.]

 

The condition of the forests around Hegathe is NOT a safe assumption. The city was under siege for about one year. That situation had the Redguards inside the city and the AD in control of everything outside of the city. That trees being felled to build their siegeworks, fuel their cooking and heating fires, and to clear fields of fire. They would have even had the ability to set the remaining forests ablaze to cover their withdrawal as the Forebear army approached. (Not saying they actually did that, but only that it was an option.)

 

And just what could Clinton have safely said when asked, "Did you have illicit sex with your aide?" If a politician wants to continue in office, there are some questions that MUST be answered with a lie. As has been mentioned, had Torygg declined the challenge, undoubtedly the manly men among the Nords would have declared that made Torygg a coward and therefore unfit to be High King. [Which is probably the precise outcome Ullfric was hoping for. It probably shocked him that Torygg actually accepted the challenge.] But a battle to the death between Ullfric and Torygg was about as fair of a matchup between Godzilla and Bambi. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s3UogfAGg0 ] And Ullfric did NOT convince "half the country" to side with him. He got 3 other jarls besides himself, out of _9_ jarls to take his side. That 5 jarls he did NOT convince compared to the 3 that he did. Hardly a resounding endorsement.

 

The AD was intent on defeating the Empire from the moment that they shifted the emphasis of the overall campaign from Hammerfell to Cyrodiil. Defeating an opponent is pretty much predicated on getting the opponent to throw in the towel. That shift occurred well before the Thalmor even capturing the Imperial City, which occurred a year before the Battle of the Red Ring.

 

Ullfric has already helped the AD. ALL of the casualties on both sides in the civil war were soldiers that would have otherwise been available to be legionnaires in Imperial Legions to fight the AD. Plus all the other costs to the Empire in the way of treasury, weapons lost, equipment destroyed, etc.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

They held them back, but they didn't take Hegathe, which we know they wanted, or advance. They just stalled for five years, and then pulled out, allowing Hammerfell to recover and making all their fighting worthless(three cities wouldn't have enough treasure to offset the money spent on funding a massive invasion).

 

What did Miraak do to High Rock, wasn't his influence restricted to Solsthiem? Also, High Rock isn't cold, unlike Canada, and there are three cities in it that are very close to Hammerfell, so I don't see any reason why they couldn't trade, and why would the Empire force High Rock to not help Hammerfell, since Hammerfell is fighting the AD, which is also their enemy?

 

If Torygg had refused the challenge Ulfric would have called for a moot, or that is what Sybille thinks anyway, and she has more insight on this than us. "By Nord custom, once the challenge was issued in court, Torygg had no choice but to accept. Had he not, Ulfric would have had cause to call a new moot and a new vote for High King. If Torygg was such a good king, then he would have let Ulfric call a moot, and since he was a good king, the Jarls would have voted him to stay king. Just because Ulfric and some people would call Torygg a coward wouldn't necessarily force the Jarls to vote Torygg out of office. Actually, Elisif shouldn't count, so it is 3 to four Jarls.

 

I assume that Ulfric winning is bad for the Thalmor because they quite explicitly say that in their Dossier:"A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed." Ulfric may have helped them by starting the war, but he messed up their plans if he won it.

 

Just because the third empire has ruled for hundreds of years does not mean that they are good, or that it is best to stay with them. There is a difference between a temper tantrum and standing up against someone who is forcing you to worship your god in secret.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

You are assuming Hegathe was besieged for a year, but for all we know they were besieged for a week. There is nothing in the 'Great War' book that backs that claim.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Elimc

[KanesGhost]

I have a question for those who know their Tamriel History (I'm vague on it)... Who were the first Races/People to settle Skyrim...The Orcs, Reach Men or Nords? I am not taking into account the Snow Elves or Dwemer due to the fact that one is decimated to the point of Genocide and the other has disappeared.

 

I am asking due to a debate approached a few pages back.

[CaptainPatch]

@Kimmera

 

They just stalled for five years, and then pulled out, allowing Hammerfell to recover and making all their fighting worthless(three cities wouldn't have enough treasure to offset the money spent on funding a massive invasion).

 

Also, High Rock isn't cold, unlike Canada, and there are three cities in it that are very close to Hammerfell, so I don't see any reason why they couldn't trade, and why would the Empire force High Rock to not help Hammerfell, since Hammerfell is fighting the AD, which is also their enemy?

 

If Torygg had refused the challenge Ulfric would have called for a moot, or that is what Sybille thinks anyway, and she has more insight on this than us. "By Nord custom, once the challenge was issued in court, Torygg had no choice but to accept. Had he not, Ulfric would have had cause to call a new moot and a new vote for High King. If Torygg was such a good king, then he would have let Ulfric call a moot, and since he was a good king, the Jarls would have voted him to stay king. Just because Ulfric and some people would call Torygg a coward wouldn't necessarily force the Jarls to vote Torygg out of office. Actually, Elisif shouldn't count, so it is 3 to four Jarls.

 

I assume that Ulfric winning is bad for the Thalmor because they quite explicitly say that in their Dossier:"A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed." Ulfric may have helped them by starting the war, but he messed up their plans if he won it.

 

Just because the third empire has ruled for hundreds of years does not mean that they are good, or that it is best to stay with them. There is a difference between a temper tantrum and standing up against someone who is forcing you to worship your god in secret.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

You are assuming Hegathe was besieged for a year, but for all we know they were besieged for a week. There is nothing in the 'Great War' book that backs that claim.

Quite often, just simply sacking ONE city can pay for an entire war. And the AD had captured four in Hammerfell. (Rihad, Taneth, Gilane, and Skaven.) And generally speaking, port cities tend to be wealthier than inland cities.

 

:wallbash: Don't ever try to become a meteorologist. Look at this map: http://www.uesp.net/w/images/c/c3/TamrielMap.jpg Now draw a line from Windhelm straight West to the left edge of the map. Everything above that line is almost permanent winter. That's @1/3 of High Rock. Going South of that line gradually warms up, but ALL of High Rock is subject to winter effects. That makes High Rock almost exactly like Canada, weather-wise.

 

Why would the Empire command High Rock to NOT trade with Hammerfell? How about it was disobedient to the emperor's commands, forcing him to boot Hammerfell out of the Empire? And any trade with a foreign nation currently fighting the AD incidentally makes the Empire an ally of that nation, which would violate the WGC. Besides, while Hammerfell was still fighting the AD, Cyrodiil most likely wanted ALL those resources to help repair the damage done to Cyrodiil during the Great War.

 

You are overlooking the facts that 1) Torygg would be ineligible to be a High King candidate in that moot (it being held to elect a new High King), and 2) he would have to spend the rest of his life being called "the coward that refused to stand up to Ullfric's bullying". Can you imagine _any_ Nord being fine with such a label? And why is it that "Elisif shouldn't count"? Do you see anyone in Haafingar vying for the job of jarl?

 

That's because they don't want the civil war to end. An ongoing war would be a continual drain on the Empire's resources.

 

It certainly the actions of someone able to see the strategic implications of the Big Picture.

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hegathe

the Aldmeri Dominion invaded southern Hammerfell, and by 4E 172, they controlled the entire southern coastline except for Hegathe, which they besieged. But in early 4E 173, a Forebear army from Sentinel broke the siege.

Maybe not a full year, but potentially even more than a year. Because they say only, "by 4E 172", it could be most any time in that year. How long would it be from say, January of 2015 to say April ("early in") 2016? But even allowing for it NOT being early 172, nor late 172, what remains is somewhere in the middle. That would make the siege going for somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 of a Mundus year. Plenty of time to wreck havoc on the countryside around Hegathe. (Just simple foraging for an army for that long would probably strip the countryside of most rations.)

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

They held them back, but they didn't take Hegathe, which we know they wanted, or advance. They just stalled for five years, and then pulled out, allowing Hammerfell to recover and making all their fighting worthless(three cities wouldn't have enough treasure to offset the money spent on funding a massive invasion).

 

What did Miraak do to High Rock, wasn't his influence restricted to Solsthiem? Also, High Rock isn't cold, unlike Canada, and there are three cities in it that are very close to Hammerfell, so I don't see any reason why they couldn't trade, and why would the Empire force High Rock to not help Hammerfell, since Hammerfell is fighting the AD, which is also their enemy?

 

If Torygg had refused the challenge Ulfric would have called for a moot, or that is what Sybille thinks anyway, and she has more insight on this than us. "By Nord custom, once the challenge was issued in court, Torygg had no choice but to accept. Had he not, Ulfric would have had cause to call a new moot and a new vote for High King. If Torygg was such a good king, then he would have let Ulfric call a moot, and since he was a good king, the Jarls would have voted him to stay king. Just because Ulfric and some people would call Torygg a coward wouldn't necessarily force the Jarls to vote Torygg out of office. Actually, Elisif shouldn't count, so it is 3 to four Jarls.

 

I assume that Ulfric winning is bad for the Thalmor because they quite explicitly say that in their Dossier:"A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed." Ulfric may have helped them by starting the war, but he messed up their plans if he won it.

 

Just because the third empire has ruled for hundreds of years does not mean that they are good, or that it is best to stay with them. There is a difference between a temper tantrum and standing up against someone who is forcing you to worship your god in secret.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

You are assuming Hegathe was besieged for a year, but for all we know they were besieged for a week. There is nothing in the 'Great War' book that backs that claim.

 

There you go with that 'allowed Hammerfell to rebuild' line again. First you are pulling that out of nowhere. Second, even if true, if Hammerfell hadn't been at war for those 5 years and had all those surplus resources, don't you think they would have rebuilt faster? Or done more than just rebuilt in that time?

 

Seriously, you are treating war as if it is free....

 

If Torygg had refused, Ulfric could have called a moot, but he more likely would have started a civil war over the refusal. He could have called a moot after Torygg's death but didn't because he knew he still didn't have the votes.

 

'Is also to be avoided' because the longer the war goes on, the better it is for the Thalmor.

 

The fact that the Empire won the battle of the Red Ring and that the troops who rallied Hammerfell were Empire-trained is proof. I thought I was clear on that.

[NerevarII]

Lol ElimC , I told you I'm not doing the work for you . You said so yourself .. "go check uesp" .. well i found a ton there , including elderscrolls wiki , steam , and various other websites including talking to people and seeing it first hand . I'm stubborn , and assuming you are too , and I'm assuming you haven't gone the work yourself because one you're lazy and two you're afraid of being wrong . That's all there is to it . Idk what's so hard to understand that I'm not going to do the work for you just because you're too lazy to do so yourself and too afraid of accepting when you're wrong . This is where I deem you unworthy of further conversation with me . As for the other topics here .. I'm going to continue to sit back and read and get more educated about TES lore and then provide input in those other topics . Oh and another reason I want you to look it up yourself , is because you're so sure of yourself it'll be so much more gratifying when you come back feeling salty and admitting you were wrong . If you come back and say those quotes don't exist , you only prove my point that you don't want to be wrong .

 

At captain patch , since my time is limited , I don't recall Ulfric killing Torygg for the religious freedom either . I'll come back shortly and hop in that conversation .

[Elimc]

@CaptainPatch

 

So, all armies in Tamriel must function the same way armies do today, there is no chance that the AD has different reserve structure than normal? And since the AD wanted to take Hegathe, why wouldn't they have committed there reserves to take it, if they had as many as you claim. They didn't need a break in the Redguard line if they had enough troops just to plow through it.

 

People could just build new mines, it would take a while, but not 21 years.

 

If Torygg was a better leader than Ulfric, he would have just refused the challenge and won the moot.

 

More is better than less, that is exactly what I was saying.

 

Since they pulled all their troops from Hammerfell to the IC, I think the Empire did commit all the forces they possibly could. If you are talking about the AD, then they probably had some troops left, but the main army was completely wiped out so those would be demoralized and outnumbered.

 

Tamriel's climate doesn't exactly make sense.

 

Skaven had warning before it was attacked, so I don't think the AD would have got much from it. Also, three cities probably wouldn't have enough money to pay for a 9 year war.

 

There East Empire Company is trading with Windhelm WHILE it is rebelling against the Empire, so why couldn't they trade with Hammerfell during the last 5 years of the Great War?

 

Ulfric would call for a moot to elect a new High King, and the moot could listen to him or refuse him. Also, if Torygg is such a good leader, he would simply refuse the challenge and worry more about the fate of Skyrim than some nords calling him a coward from Windhelm. Also, most people in Solitude regard the challenge as illegal, so he could just say that they are against the law.

 

It was under siege for a maximum of a year, but it could have only been besieged for a month. And if the AD just focused on the city, while they might have burned the trees around it(or the Redguards might have burned them so the AD wouldn't have any cover), anything west of it would be untouched.

 

@Kimmera

 

If the Redguards had help from High Rock, they could have recovered a lot quicker. Even if they didn't get help, they have had 21 years to rebuild, and since no one is restarting the Great War for a while, they still do have time to rebuild more. The war would have hurt them, but they have had time to recover.

 

The troops who won the Battle of the Red Ring were under Imperial command, but it is likely they were born and trained in Skyrim, before leaving to fight for the Empire. Same with the Redguards. The fact that the Redguards won without Imperial leaders proves that the Empire is not necessary to defeat the AD.

[kimmera]

Elimc,

 

Competent armies don't keep reserves on a whim. They do so because it is a good idea that makes good military sense. Moreover, the AD are described routinely as playing a long game. That means a more cautious approach, not tossing everything in and praying.

 

Building new mines means finding new veins.

 

As for the Empire, they were in a much more desperate situation. Moreover, we are told outright that they committed everything they could.

 

Trading with Hammerfell isn't in question. Of course trade is still possible. The question is what does Hammerfell have available to trade back?

 

Ulfric challenges Torygg. Torygg refuses. Ulfric calls a Moot, and the Jarls are split exactly as they are with the Civil War. What is different between that and what actually happened? EIther way, Ulfric has a claim of Torygg's weakness, the Jarls are likely split the same way and Skyrim is at war just the same.

 

If Hammerfell had help from High Rock, they would have had an easier time with the AD. Again, moreover, if Hammerfell had help from High Rock without the war having happened at all, they would be considerably stronger than getting such help after dealing with an extended war.

 

Right. Of course. The Empire generals are completely incompetent and the Empire has only survived by foreign leadership propping them up. There is absolutely nothing in the lore indicating anything of the sort, but that doesn't seem to matter to your arguments....

 

Decanius left Imperial troops behind to rally and coordinate the Redguard. We know this from The Great War, the primary source you keep citing but seem to completely ignore....

[CaptainPatch]

 

@CaptainPatch

 

So, all armies in Tamriel must function the same way armies do today, there is no chance that the AD has different reserve structure than normal? And since the AD wanted to take Hegathe, why wouldn't they have committed there reserves to take it, if they had as many as you claim. They didn't need a break in the Redguard line if they had enough troops just to plow through it.

"Form follows function". Modern armies still have more or less the same kind of organization that was used in the Middle Ages. A Reserve sitting back at home does no good for the units fighting on the Front Line. Even a Reserve a couple divisions over has limited utility. Operational units create their own Reserve because if EVERYTHING is committed and a situation suddenly develops (breach in friendly line, breakthrough in the enemy line, etc.) then the unit unit a limited ability to react to the situation. A Reserve Army, otoh, is used on a much larger scale. When a nation has a very broad front that has become deadlocked, moving in the Reserve Army may be enough to break the deadlock. (The German High Command tried this in WW1 with Operation Michael (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Michael), but the strategy met with marginal success because there wasn't enough frontage per unit to take advantage of the increased manpower. [ Operation Michael actually sort of predicted the outcome of the Battle of Bulge in the next World War. It's a price leaders pay when they don't learn the lessons History provides.] Larger empires are more prone to have Reserve Armies. However, more often than not, it becomes the Home Guard or the emperor's personal bodyguards. (Xerxes and his Immortals, a 10,000-man unit that could be an army in its own right for that era.) Emperors are generally really, really cautious about committing their personal bodyguard unit. It must make them feel naked, not being surrounded by their most loyal protectors.

 

Not reinforcing Hegathe was a function of the shift in priorities that the AD had started with. Initially, the emphasis was to capture the Hammerfell targets. But after having invaded both Cyrodiil and Hammerfell, it became apparent that Cyrodiil was MUCH weaker than they had anticipated. The possibility of capturing the Imperial City and forcing the Empire to sue for peace was too lucrative to pass up. So whatever flexibility that was available was directed to Cyrodiil instead of Hammerfell, forcing the units there to try to get by with what they already had. [Nine times out of ten, when a nation or empire loses its capital, it throws in the towel and pleads for surrender terms. Cyrodiil was one of those one out of ten instances where the opponent refuses to surrender, just because the Capital had been lost.]

 

People could just build new mines, it would take a while, but not 21 years.

Yeah, it would definitely be doable. But how many investors would be willing to wait on a Return On Investment that would be several years before materializing? It takes a LOT of time to clear out the rubble -- BIG rocks -- from all of the shafts to get to the productive veins. (The stuff closer to the surface having been mined out already.)

 

Speaking of restarting destroyed industries, you need to also consider the broader societal concerns after a devastating war. First, money is scarce, most of it having been spent for the War Effort earlier. Second, it is VERY important to realize that this world has not as yet developed fiat currency = paper money. Money in circulation is value based = a coin is worth the material it is made from. The government can NOT just manufacture money to pay workers. And the workers really, really need that money just so they and their families can survive. And after a lengthy devastating war, Demand invariably far exceeds Supply, making pretty much everything quite expensive. The #1 problem facing Hammerfell after the Thalmor departed would undoubtedly be an explosion of banditry across most of the province. To combat that banditry, the ruling caste would have to hire a LARGE number of soldiers to hunt down and eradicate those bandits. And right ^^there you have two huge drains on the available manpower.

 

After WW2, West Germany benefited from the influx of wealth provided by the Marshall Plan. In less than 10 years, it was once again fully industrialized and productive. Conversely, East Germany under Soviet control was MUCH slower to rebuild -- in an industrialized world with populations in the millions. You can find photos of East Berlin, 20 years after the war, showing entire city blocks still buried in rubble from the war. In contrast to East Germany, Hammerfell will be trying to rebuild itself, relying entirely on its own resources and manpower.

 

If Torygg was a better leader than Ulfric, he would have just refused the challenge and won the moot.

You seem to have missed an important point: If Torygg refused the challenge, he would automatically be ineligible to be a candidate in the subsequent moot. Which, you should notice, that moot has still not happened, and would be unlikely to happen until after the civil war has been resolved. Either way, alive or dead, Torygg is no longer High King and his replacement won't be selected until after the civil war concludes.

 

More is better than less, that is exactly what I was saying.

But not in ALL things. For example, suffering more casualties is markedly less appealing than sustaining fewer casualties.

 

Since they pulled all their troops from Hammerfell to the IC, I think the Empire did commit all the forces they possibly could. If you are talking about the AD, then they probably had some troops left, but the main army was completely wiped out so those would be demoralized and outnumbered.

Actually, the Empire didn't get ALL available Imperial soldiers that had been in Hammerfell. The Imperial commander in Hammerfell juggled some paperwork and invalided out -- made them "unfit for military service" -- a substantial amount of his force to make them available to the Redguards while fighting the AD in Hammerfell. And I agree with you that the Empire scraped together everything it could from what was available at that moment. Just as what the AD lost was most of what it had available in Cyrodiil at that moment. The Ad still had military strength in Hammerfell, Valenwood, Elswyr, Summerset Isle, and units that happened to be in transit at that time. However much that was, it was adequate to the AD's needs in those locations. In contrast, what did the Empire have left? The Redguards and some Imperial "invalids" in Hammerfell. No Legions in High Rock or Skyrim (as those had been pulled into Cyrodiil). And the survivors of the Battle of the Red Ring, where the "healthiest" units could barely scrape together 50% of their paper strength. The Empire was in no shape to mount any kind of offensive. And defensively, those remnants would be of questionable effectiveness.

 

If you want to see the effect of demoralization brought on by having entire armies destroyed, take a look at the USSR in WW2. Despite those losses, they eventually got to Berlin first. So don't write off the AD, just because it lost ONE army.

 

Tamriel's climate doesn't exactly make sense.

Sure it does. Snowfields up by the Arctic Circle, gradually turning to more lush vegetation as you get to the jungles and deserts as the continent approaches the Equator. What doesn't make sense is for a character to completely transit entire climate zones in a matter of game hours. (A journey of what should be several hundred miles. But that's a side-effect of this being a game, and players would lose interest if a trip from Riften to Solitude took weeks of game time.

 

Skaven had warning before it was attacked, so I don't think the AD would have got much from it. Also, three cities probably wouldn't have enough money to pay for a 9 year war.

Where on Tamriel did you get that notion? Against most wisdom, the Imperials retreated across the Alikr Desert. Against great adversity, they survived the March of Thirst. Then shortly thereafter, the Thalmor arrived on their heels. Having TWO armies make that journey would boggle the mind. Had the Imperials been aware the Thalmor were close behind, they would have built defenses IN Skaven. Instead, what happened was a battle took place outside the city.

 

Just how quickly do you think it would take for a city to evacuate ALL of its wealth? There's a long, long, long History of sacked cities being drained by invaders the defenders were aware were weeks away. A LOT of wealth simply cannot be crated up and shipped in a timely fashion. Where do you think the Nazis acquired all their hoards of stolen art? Gathered up by paratroopers?

 

There East Empire Company is trading with Windhelm WHILE it is rebelling against the Empire, so why couldn't they trade with Hammerfell during the last 5 years of the Great War?

Because Hammerfell doesn't have enough money to make the trade lucrative enough perhaps?

 

Ulfric would call for a moot to elect a new High King, and the moot could listen to him or refuse him. Also, if Torygg is such a good leader, he would simply refuse the challenge and worry more about the fate of Skyrim than some nords calling him a coward from Windhelm. Also, most people in Solitude regard the challenge as illegal, so he could just say that they are against the law.

See above. Torygg refuses and he's out of a job. And even though the office of High King is vacant, no moot has been convened. And you DO realize you are speaking of Nords, right? It would definitely be a LOT more than just "some" Nords. Heck, if Torygg declined, he would most likely have to deal with an unending parade of Nord morons that think it would be a hoot to challenge the former High King to a duel. ("I challenged the High King to a duel! And he declined! That makes me better than a High King, right?!") Hmm, just how familiar are you will ALL Law where you live? Do you feel confident that you would definitely KNOW whether or not a given Law is still in effect? Especially Laws that you knew for a fact had been in effect in the past, but does it still apply Today? (This is why kings have advisors.) And at that moment, delaying a reply "while we consult the Law books" would appear to be a coward's hesitation.

 

It was under siege for a maximum of a year, but it could have only been besieged for a month. And if the AD just focused on the city, while they might have burned the trees around it(or the Redguards might have burned them so the AD wouldn't have any cover), anything west of it would be untouched.

 

Huh? "Besieged" literally means "under siege". Do you have the slightest concept of how a siege works? The defenders are inside, the "hole" of a donut. The attackers are on the outside, the "donut" surrounding the hole. People stuck on the inside really can't do much to hinder whatever it is the people on the outside are doing. (If they could, they wouldn't be besieged in the first place.) The AD would have needed to level a forest just to build the siegeworks and siege equipment. And to alleviate their supply situation, the Thalmor would have been foraging off of the surrounding countryside for tens of miles. And if they had any inkling at all that a Redguard army might come to try to break the siege from the outside, they would have wanted to build outward facing defenses as well (and there goes another forest).. [Much like Caesar's siege of Alesia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alesia ]

[ISOWarrior]

I have a problems picking a side as well. I have an Imperial character who is also a mage. She is neutral in the Civil War, and is not really a Talos worshipper( or any sort of a worshipper at all. I mean, she does believe in higher beings and outside forces, since she has met some of them in her life, she is just not into worshipping them), but she hates the Thalmor with passion( and has her own reasons to do so). She has already completed the main quest( thanks to the Paarthurnax Dilemma mod, she managed to both stay neutral and keep Grandpa Paarthy alive) I am going to have her take over the rule Skyrim and become Queen using the Become High King of Skyrim mod, then gather enough war assets, and then declare a war with the Thalmor. I just don't know what way should she do it. Joining the Imperial Legion, rising through their ranks, and then gaining their approval might be an option, yet this way she'll have to take side in the Civil War, which leads to more bloodshed. An alternate way would be to join the Stormcloaks( might be hard 'cause she is an Imperial and an Arch-Mage) , gain Ulfric's trust, then assassinate him and those who could take his place, and take over herself, but it is risky because her former comrades would likely rise up against her once they see she is getting friendly with the Empire( an uprising is not in the mod, I am just trying to think about things from a roleplay perspective) . Another way is to stay neutral all the time, gain the support of the majority of the Jarls( become Thane in most of the cities), assassinate all the important figures that take part in the Civil War, have the Jarls elect me as the new Queen. As you can see, it involves more bloodshed when it comes to authority figures, but if both sides don't have their leaders, this might lead to them being temporarily disorganized, and it might save the lives of soldiers and civillians. And the final( and the least believeable way) would be to keep everyone alive and somehow get people to support you, which, if one thinks about it, is not beneficial since it might split the people even more, which puts Skyrim into an even more unfavourable position. Besides, the major authority figures can't just so simply reconcile, unless there is some ancient, rare, very OP sort of mind altering magic involved( which, IMO, would be merely a handwave) .
Are ways for my character take over Skyrim in a realistic, story relevant way one can think of? Does she have to join a faction for this or should she stay neutral? And if she has, which? As for me, as the player, I can't say I sympathized with any of the faction enough to prefer it over another. I might be slightly leaning towards the Empire, but not enough to make me side with it, iand in fact, neither me nor my character are into symphatizing with political organizations. Besides, my character helped people on both sides, she has seen both good and bad people on both sides. She just doesn't care about one's political beliefs. Yet, if she wants to defeat the Thalmor one day, she has to end the Civil War in one way or another. Just one cannot win a war alone, and losing more people to the Civil War would mean to lose potential troops for a war with the Thalmor. That is why solving the conflict the least bloodshed possible is preferable in this situation.
EDIT: I am sorry for posting this to the wrong topic, just my browser has glitched and I didn't see the " My thoughts" phrase in the header, therefore read it as just " Join Empire or Stormcloaks" . Please delete this.

Edited September 1, 2015 by ISOWarrior