Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[CaptainPatch]

I am going to have her take over the rule Skyrim and become Queen using the Become High King of Skyrim mod, then gather enough war assets, and then declare a war with the Thalmor.

I don't know how that mod works, but this course of action has a LOT of problems. First (recalling I don't know how the mod works) a High King can't be chosen until a moot of ALL of the jarls is held. Such a moot can't be called until the civil war is resolved, one way or the other. Given that the Imperials win, then Skyrim remains a part of the Empire. As such, the High King/Queen is subordinate to the Emperor. That means that Skyrim CAN'T unilaterally declare war on any other nation or empire; it MUST be approved by the Imperial government/emperor. And such approval would not be forthcoming until a time of the Emperor's choosing. Alternatively, that aspect can be sidestepped if the Stormcloaks win. However, after the Stormcloaks win, it is highly unlikely that anyone other than Ullfric would be elected High King. And if after having survived a civil war, he should die under suspicious circumstances, there would be a great likelihood that another civil war would break out between the likely successors. Trying to go the Stormcloak route WILL leave a long trail of dead bodies leading to your character being on the throne. And if a second civil war needs to be fought and won for your character to end up on the throne, then Skyrim WILL be in the worst possible condition to be contemplating going to war with an empire.

[Elimc]

@NerevarII

 

I had this same discussion about Ulfric a few pages back with CaptainPatch and Kimmera, and neither of them proved that he was racist, if you have any proof then just copy/paste it here. I not found any quotes from Ulfric that are racist. However, since you are making me find all the quotes, here are a few from him:

 

We're fighting because we're done bleeding for an Empire that won't bleed for us! Untold numbers of Nords died defending the Empire against the Dominion. And for what? Skyrim being sold to the Thalmor so the Emperor could keep his throne. We're fighting because our own Jarls, once strong, wise men, have become fearful and blind with the people's suffering. We're fighting because Skyrim needs heroes, and there's no one else but us."

 

"I challenged him in the traditional way, and he accepted. There were many witnesses; no murder was committed. True, he didn't stand a chance against me, but that was precisely the point. He was a puppet king of the Empire, not a High King of Skyrim. His father before him, perhaps, but not Toryyg. He was too privileged and too foolish, more interested in entertaining his queen than ruling his country.

 

"My father, the Great Bear of Eastmarch, died during my imprisonment after the Markarth incident. I, his only son, forced to deliver his eulogy via a letter I had smuggled out of prison. Such is the love of Titus Mede for his subjects. When finally set free, I returned to Windhelm and was... greeted by a city in mourning. And one with my own grief, and anger. Clamoring in angry voices. Calling out for justice, for war. They sat me on the throne. The throne of Ysgramor, the throne of my father. I only hope I can prove worthy of that honor."

 

Jorleif: "Sir, there continues to be unrest in the Gray Quarter."
Ulfric: "Blasted dark elves. I don't suppose you could tell them that I presently have larger concerns? Such as all of Skyrim?"
Jorleif: "They don't seem to be very sympathetic to our cause, sir."
Ulfric: "Let me know if you hear anything more substantial."
Jorleif: "Of course, my lord."

 

 

Ulfric: "Is there any news from High Rock?"
Galmar: "Not a peep. Those prissy Bretons can't be made to lift a finger to help their neighbors."
Ulfric: "I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. They've never had many problems with the Empire."
Galmar: "Those milk-drinkers? Might as well be elves. Think they're better than us."
Ulfric: "Regardless, it appears Skyrim must stand alone, again."

 

@Kimmera

 

The AD wouldn't toss in everything, but sometimes it makes more sense to charge at your opponent with most of your forces, unless you want to end up like General George McClellan.

 

Building new mines would take time, as would everything else, but Hammerfell has time.

 

Hammerfell has everything in its northern cities, and while they won't have much after nine years of war, they might still have some money.

 

The Empire committed everything they could, won a huge battle killing the entire main army of the AD, still had 2 and a half legions left, and would have been in a position to force the AD out of Cyrodil for good, and then they surrendered.

 

Either way Balgruuf will be the tiebreaker, but one way involves a war and the other involves a debate. Ulfric might have been hoping that Torygg would refuse, because that way he could convince the other Jarls to join them, not take their cities by force.

 

The Empire is not necessarily incompetent, but neither are the redguards, nords, or bretons.

 

Decianus left troops (probably redguard ones) behind in Hammerfell, who fought off the AD without any Imperial aid. Just because they were once Imperial doesn't mean they are always Imperial, otherwise Ulfric is an Imperial.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

If the AD had the troops, they would have retaken Hegathe after the Empire surrendered. They obviously wanted it, and if they were going to be fighting anyway, they would have tried to take it.

 

Yes, it takes time to recover from a war, but it is not impossible. The American revolution lasted seven years, and raged all across America, but 31 years later America had recovered enough to fight Britain again. While the Americans did have more technology, they also had a greater percentage of their land fought in.

 

How do you know Torygg would be ineligible in the next moot? You are making an interpretation of Sybille's dialog that is not necessarily correct.

 

Well duh, but more ways to surprise attack the enemy is better than less ways.

 

The troops in Hammerfell stopped the AD in their tracks, and eventually forced them to withdraw. Also, you cite the USSR in WWII as a reason the AD would win, but since they didn't have another army except for the one in Hammerfell, just some reserves that were needed to stop rebellion and keep order, I don't see the correlation. The USSR had another army, but the AD doesn't. They could try to split the one in Hammerfell in half, and pull in their reserves, but if their reserves couldn't defeat Hammerfell, how coul they defeat Hammerfell plus Cyrodil? The Empire didn't need to invade the AD, they just needed to force them out of Cyrodil.

 

Yes, besieged and under siege are the same thing, but if it was besieged in december 4E172, and liberated in January 4E173, it would have only been under siege for a month. I said all the forests not west of Hegathe could be destroyed, including the ones right around it, but anything a substantial distance west of it would be safe.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Elimc

[kimmera]

Elimc,

 

"and would have been in a position to force the AD out of Cyrodil for good"

 

That is the part you have not proven. According to "The Great War" the Empire "was in no condition to continue."

 

You have pointed to the known, to the obvious, to the remaining troop strength, but you have ignored any suggestion that there may have been other reasons (such as supply) why they couldn't continue.

 

It is possible that the AD committed everything, but you are blithely insisting on risking everything on such unknowns, especially in a situation where the Empire feels it is in no condition to continue.

 

The Redguards were divided along clan lines before Decidius rallied them. We know this from The Great War. They might have great tacticians, and definitely have skilled soldiers, but don't have great strategists or else they wouldn't have needed outside leadership to unite them. The Nords have Ulfric, who we know has been puffed up by the Thalmor into believing he was considerably more effective in the Battle of the Red Ring than he really was.

 

While it is true that not all forces are Imperial forces, we were told that it was Imperial forces left behind by Decidius, not personal guard troops, local militia, whatever. What he left behind were 'invalids' 'discharged from the Legions.' If Ulfric was Imperial Legion rather than Skyrim Militia, then there would have been no negotiation re: Markarth. He would have been blatantly insubordinate and subject to court martial.

 

Moreover, we know they were Imperials rather than Redguard militia because of a later line " The Aldmeri were unaware that he was no longer in Hammerfell, possibly because the Imperial veterans Decianus had left behind led Lady Arannelya to believe that she still faced an Imperial army. "

 

Lady Arannelya thinking she was still facing an Imperial Army (rather than a Redguard Army led and reinforced by Imperials) may also have led the AD to commit less to Cyrodiil.

[CaptainPatch]

Elimc, on 01 Sept 2015 - 5:02 PM, said:

The AD wouldn't toss in everything, but sometimes it makes more sense to charge at your opponent with most of your forces, unless you want to end up like General George McClellan.

Ooooo! Something we can sink our teeth into! McClellan's problem was that he had too many resources in the way of troops, equipment, and supply. Plus, the idiot was a micromanager. He insisted on directing the movements of EVERY unit in his very large force, one at a time. In an era where an army could safely expect to move @10 miles per day, Little Mac had them averaging less than two.

 

Yes you can say "sometimes", but the flip side of that is "most times that would be a Bad Idea." About the only time to throw in the kitchen sink is when you have nothing left to lose. As in, a last desperate gamble before inevitable defeat. [Really good relevant movie clip: Zulu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmuYkYnxeBE The really interesting thing about that scene is that at that point in the battle, BOTH sides committed their last reserves.]

 

Building new mines would take time, as would everything else, but Hammerfell has time.

And they will need that time to get everything back to what it was before the war.

 

Hammerfell has everything in its northern cities, and while they won't have much after nine years of war, they might still have some money.

Oh, they undoubtedly have some money. And just as undoubtedly, they won't have enough of it. They will be needing to pay the wages of all active soldiers and sailors (who produce ZERO revenue), and all of the civil servants. They will have to set a priority schedule for what needs to be built or rebuilt, all of which costs money. The bulk of the Military WILL be released from active service to both allow those men to go home and rebuild/reactivate their homes and businesses, and to economize by reducing the wages requirement draining the Treasury. But if they prioritize agriculture and left rebuilding fortifications until later, and the AD springs a surprise by coming back for Round Two (or any other large military group attacks), Hammerfell will be screwed worse than at the beginning of Round One. (That's a risk that Hammerfell simply can't afford to take.) So that means rebuilding and expanding fortifications gets bumped up the priority list -- which like the military personnel, provides ZERO revenue. There will also be a LOT of banditry putting a strain on the little bit of Commerce that remains in Hammerfell, until such time as the central government has a large enough Military to make a deliberate effort to to make banditry an exceedingly unhealthy career to pursue. What will eventually restore the Economy will be the production of surpluses of foodstuffs and raw resources. That much brings the Economy back to Stable. Actual growth happens when industry is built to convert raw materials into finished goods that Hammerfeel won't need and other nations are willing to pay premium prices to acquire.

 

The Empire committed everything they could, won a huge battle killing the entire main army of the AD, still had 2 and a half legions left, and would have been in a position to force the AD out of Cyrodil for good, and then they surrendered.

Stated more correctly, that would be "had five partial Legions, the largest of which had almost 50% strength." And after the Battle of the Red Ring, AD forces in Cyrodiil were pulling out anyway, with no need to be forced out. And just like the Empire refused to surrender after all the losses it suffered when the AD captured the Imperial City, losing ONE battle is hardly a guarantee that the AD was about to throw in the towel.

 

The Empire is not necessarily incompetent, but neither are the redguards, nords, or bretons.

And likewise the AD. Don't forget them. They certainly were kicking butt everywhere they went the first year or two of the war.

 

Decianus left troops (probably redguard ones) behind in Hammerfell, who fought off the AD without any Imperial aid. Just because they were once Imperial doesn't mean they are always Imperial, otherwise Ulfric is an Imperial.

Absolutely NO evidence that they were all Redguards. All that is said is that they were Imperial legionnaires. I believe had they indeed ALL been Redguards, the Great War author would have mentioned that it was only Redguards being "invalided". And does the Latin phrase "Semper fi" mean anything to you? Or "esprit de corps"? Pretty universally throughout Skyrim, if you chat with a former legionnaire, he will speak in great pride of his time spent in the Legion. I imagine that it is the same for former legionnaires in Hammerfell (and everywhere else in the Empire).

 

If the AD had the troops, they would have retaken Hegathe after the Empire surrendered. They obviously wanted it, and if they were going to be fighting anyway, they would have tried to take it.

If they really, really wanted it. Initially, their primary concern for taking the Hammerfell ports was to deprive the Empire of them and demonstrate how poorly the Empire protected the outlying provinces. War's over, the Empire lost, it no longer access to ANY Hammerfell port, including Hegathe (even though the AD never captured it). All that = "Mission Accomplished". In short, the AD didn't need Hegathe... or any other Hammerfell port for that matter.

 

The American revolution lasted seven years, and raged all across America, but 31 years later America had recovered enough to fight Britain again.

Also in contrast, the USA consisted of the equivalent of _13_ provinces (Colonies), as opposed to the Empire's 4. It also had a total population of nearly 4 million people (by 1790, when the first census was conducted). And for all the duration of the war, less than 5% of the 13 Colonies' real estate was subjected to the ravages of war. Further, GB was pointedly trying to NOT severely damage Colonial industry and infrastructure as it had hopes of taking back total control of the Colonies.

 

How do you know Torygg would be ineligible in the next moot? You are making an interpretation of Sybille's dialog that is not necessarily correct.

"By Nord custom, once the challenge was issued in court, Torygg had no choice but to accept. Had he not, Ulfric would have had cause to call a new moot and a new vote for High King.

More clarification on how the Moot works:

The Moot can reconvene during a living High King's reign if he breaks some taboo which makes the Jarls of Skyrim lose confidence in him, such as refusing a challenge made in the old traditions.

^THAT demonstrates that if Torygg refused the challenge, he would be ineligible to be re-elected by the subsequent Moot.

 

The troops in Hammerfell stopped the AD in their tracks, and eventually forced them to withdraw. Also, you cite the USSR in WWII as a reason the AD would win, but since they didn't have another army except for the one in Hammerfell, just some reserves that were needed to stop rebellion and keep order, I don't see the correlation. The USSR had another army, but the AD doesn't. They could try to split the one in Hammerfell in half, and pull in their reserves, but if their reserves couldn't defeat Hammerfell, how coul they defeat Hammerfell plus Cyrodil? The Empire didn't need to invade the AD, they just needed to force them out of Cyrodil.

It could likewise be said that for five years the AD stopped the Redguards in their tracks. Just look at the strategic Big Picture of the main army movements:

1 -- AD invades Hammerfell

2 -- AD captures Rihad, Taneth, and Gilane, and sieges Hegathe

3 -- Imperial forces from Rihad, Taneth, and Gilane retreat North across the Alikr Desert.

4 -- AD forces under Lady Arennelya pursue the retreating Imperials and force a battle just South of Skaven. Undecided result, but the Imperials withdraw from Skaven, allowing the AD to capture the city, unopposed.

5 -- After occupying Skaven for a short time, without being forced out, the AD withdraws from Skaven and returns to the South coast.

6 -- Redguards from Sentinel break the siege at Hegathe. The AD forces there retire to Gilane.

7 -- Then for the next five years, the battle lines never change. The AD controlled everything along the South coast from Gilane to the Cyrodiil border.

 

There is NO mention that in those five years the AD tried to capture anything beyond what they already had. OTOH, there is mention that the Redguards kept trying to push the AD out of the South coast cities, but apparently with ZERO success.

 

In fact, the Soviets had _316_ divisions (think "Legions") organized into 21 armies with several dozen supplemental corps-sized units. The Germans had 153 divisions organized into 15 armies. In the first six months of the German invasion, the Soviets lost @4 million personnel out of an initial strength of 5,774,000 = almost 70% losses. (About the equivalent of 14 of those 21 armies it started with. And I assure you, the USSR did not finish out the war with just those 7 remaining armies. They formed additional armies in that portion of the USSR NOT being invaded and rushed them to the Front. Which is what the AD can do. Even better, those forces in Valenwood, Elswyr, and Summerset Isle can move forward as fast as they are replaced the newly raised units. Experienced soldiers coming forward. Whereas, the Empire had NO remaining existing armies elsewhere in the Empire. If it scrambled to recruit new Legions, they wouldn't have time to train them before committing them to battle.

 

Well duh, but more ways to surprise attack the enemy is better than less ways.

Well, duh, it only takes ONE for the surprise to be effective. Anything more than one is just more icing on the cake. For example, it really isn't all that much more beneficial to have two additional points of entry via southern Hammerfell, when there are already has 4 in Valenwood and 4 more in Elswyr. Those additional points of entry may be useful, but they are not at all necessary.

 

but if it was besieged in december 4E172, and liberated in January 4E173, it would have only been under siege for a month.

Or perhaps the siege started in January 172, but ended in May 173. That would have made the siege last one year and 4 months. That possibility is exactly just as likely as what you suggest. I'm willing to better than split the difference and assume the siege lasted @6 months. Which is plenty of time to wreck havoc around Hegathe in every direction for as far as 50 miles.

Edited September 2, 2015 by CaptainPatch

[ISOWarrior]

Sorry for posting off topic again, just answering a user's message.

 

I am going to have her take over the rule Skyrim and become Queen using the Become High King of Skyrim mod, then gather enough war assets, and then declare a war with the Thalmor.

I don't know how that mod works, but this course of action has a LOT of problems. First (recalling I don't know how the mod works) a High King can't be chosen until a moot of ALL of the jarls is held. Such a moot can't be called until the civil war is resolved, one way or the other. Given that the Imperials win, then Skyrim remains a part of the Empire. As such, the High King/Queen is subordinate to the Emperor. That means that Skyrim CAN'T unilaterally declare war on any other nation or empire; it MUST be approved by the Imperial government/emperor. And such approval would not be forthcoming until a time of the Emperor's choosing. Alternatively, that aspect can be sidestepped if the Stormcloaks win. However, after the Stormcloaks win, it is highly unlikely that anyone other than Ullfric would be elected High King. And if after having survived a civil war, he should die under suspicious circumstances, there would be a great likelihood that another civil war would break out between the likely successors. Trying to go the Stormcloak route WILL leave a long trail of dead bodies leading to your character being on the throne. And if a second civil war needs to be fought and won for your character to end up on the throne, then Skyrim WILL be in the worst possible condition to be contemplating going to war with an empire.

 

The mod I am going to use is this one. As you see from a description, the mod itself lacks any plot and is not particularly lore friendly, It's just me trying to use it in a lore friendly way and make up a realistic headcanon for myself( I am sorry if anything I say is inaccurate though, I am not a lore expert myself, and Skyrim is the first TES game I am playing, I am just trying to have things happening make sense, at least in my head) . The key points I want in my game to happen are:

• my character becomes the High Queen
• Skyrim must be preserved as much as one can preserve it from a destructive civil war
• after some time( regardless how long) , another war with the Thalmor starts

Since the Stormcloak route leaves a lot of bloodshed, and does Skyrim more harm than good, just like I suspected and the user said, this is not a way to go. Even though I would be happy to resolve the Civil War without bloodshed, it looks like I'll have to join the Empire and fight for them if I want my character to ascend to power. My character will still have to become Thane of many cities to gain influence and approval of the Jarls( and also possibly assassinate Elisif, although the player personally would be happy if there was a way without that) if she wants to have a chance being elected on a moot. After that, my character has to take her time for both Skyrim and the Empire to recover strength. Many years might pass( however, even though I might handwave her not aging as her being a mage powerful enough to slow it down, others not aging is really immersion-breaking in this case). However, since I need the approval of the Emperor, the problem is in getting him to declare a war with the Thalmor. So what I need is the ideas on how can the Empire be manipulated into declaring a war( and yes, I am ready to make up that many things in my mind, in general, i make headcanons for video games a lot). But at least I have decided who am I going to side with.

[fraquar]

So let me get this straight. The only reason the AD advanced into Cyrodill is that they "correctly" deduced the Empire was much weaker than they thought. So it begs the question, even losing the battle of Red Ring, why didn't they just call up all these "crack" reserves they had and the Empire didn't and just finish the job? Strange strategy indeed. You know they are weak, they hit you with a haymaker, but it takes everything they have left to do it and they are a spent force - FINISH THEM!!!!!!

[kimmera]

So let me get this straight. The only reason the AD advanced into Cyrodill is that they "correctly" deduced the Empire was much weaker than they thought. So it begs the question, even losing the battle of Red Ring, why didn't they just call up all these "crack" reserves they had and the Empire didn't and just finish the job? Strange strategy indeed. You know they are weak, they hit you with a haymaker, but it takes everything they have left to do it and they are a spent force - FINISH THEM!!!!!!

 

Because their goal was never to actually conquer the Empire, at least not at this time. Their goals were the list of demands they made before the war. The war ended with the Empire agreeing to those goals, and additionally losing Hammerfell, and being at risk of losing Skyrim.

 

Additionally the AD got whatever Elder Scrolls and other valuables that they could get out of the Imperial Capitol during the months they held it.

 

Taking and trying to hold Cyrodill would have meant garrisons and suppressing insurrection and was not necessary to the AD's plans.

[kimmera]

By the way, if the AD had nothing left after the Battle of the Red Ring, where did they get the troops to garrison the fort outside Solitude? They withdrew that garrison after the peace seemed to be holding but it was manned by Thalmor troops, some of which would later re-locate to the Embassy and to Northwatch Keep.

[CaptainPatch]

• after some time( regardless how long) , another war with the Thalmor starts

Since the Stormcloak route leaves a lot of bloodshed, and does Skyrim more harm than good, just like I suspected and the user said, this is not a way to go. Even though I would be happy to resolve the Civil War without bloodshed, it looks like I'll have to join the Empire and fight for them if I want my character to ascend to power. My character will still have to become Thane of many cities to gain influence and approval of the Jarls( and also possibly assassinate Elisif, although the player personally would be happy if there was a way without that) if she wants to have a chance being elected on a moot. After that, my character has to take her time for both Skyrim and the Empire to recover strength. Many years might pass( however, even though I might handwave her not aging as her being a mage powerful enough to slow it down, others not aging is really immersion-breaking in this case). However, since I need the approval of the Emperor, the problem is in getting him to declare a war with the Thalmor. So what I need is the ideas on how can the Empire be manipulated into declaring a war( and yes, I am ready to make up that many things in my mind, in general, i make headcanons for video games a lot). But at least I have decided who am I going to side with.

If longevity is not a concern, all you have to do is be patient. Sometime in the probable near future, the Empire and the AD WILL be fighting each other again. (Given just how many Thalmor in Skyrim get killed when no one is looking assures that inevitability.)

 

It's really not that hard to be made Thane in all 9 holds, even while the civil war is going on. The toughest one is Windhelm because it pretty much requires becoming a Stormcloak to get Ulfric to be generous. Most often, Windhelm requires finishing the civil war as an Imperial and then have Ulfric's successor appoint you Thane. (He owes his position to you, after all.)

 

Technically, the next High King/Queen is the direct heir of the previous HK/Q, meaning offspring. Elisif is only Torygg's spouse, and any child she may have in the future will pointedly NOT be Torygg's offspring. So though she is the Jarl of Haafingar by default, she definitely is not automatically going to be the next High Queen. As such, it probably will NOT be necessary to assassinate her to get her out of the way. All that is actually necessary is to get the Moot to vote for the Dragonborn, Slayer of Alduin, Champion of the Empire (for being instrumental in winning the civil war), etc. [The only thing that stops that from happening already is that Bethesda didn't add it to the TES5 script. By all logic, once the civil war is over, a Moot should be convened to fill the High K/Q position.]

 

 

BTW, if you complete the Dark Brotherhood (Assassins) quest, you would have the opportunity to assassinate the Emperor, putting an end to his line. Being demonstrably Dragonborn, a very persuasive argument could be made that the Dragonborn is the most viable candidate for the next Emperor/Empress. Why settle for High Queen when you have an opportunity to be Empress of the entire Empire? (What's left of it anyway.)

 

So let me get this straight. The only reason the AD advanced into Cyrodill is that they "correctly" deduced the Empire was much weaker than they thought. So it begs the question, even losing the battle of Red Ring, why didn't they just call up all these "crack" reserves they had and the Empire didn't and just finish the job? Strange strategy indeed. You know they are weak, they hit you with a haymaker, but it takes everything they have left to do it and they are a spent force - FINISH THEM!!!!!!

Unlike the main character, armies in Tamriel can NOT fast travel. The bulk of AD forces in Cyrodiil were thoroughly demolished at the Battle of the Red Ring. Thereafter, the AD High Command would not be aware of that defeat until word of it was carried to Summerset Isle. (Speed of the fastest fleeing Thalmor escaping from the debacle.) [There are ALWAYS at least a few survivors from even the most thorough defeat.] But hot on the heels of that news would come the Empire's peace proposal wherein the Empire offers to pretty much give the AD _everything_ it had been demanding before the fighting began. However, by the time the AD emissaries arrived to finalize the WGC, it became obvious that Hammerfell refused to stop fighting. That forced the Empire to divest itself of ALL of Hammerfell in order to finalize the WGC. (That's an even better outcome from the AD's point of view.) So, since the Empire was surrendering anyway, there was no need to go to the bother of bringing any reserves forward.

Edited September 2, 2015 by CaptainPatch

[MidbossVyers]

No, the reason that Amaund Motierre wanted Titus Mede assassinated was most likely to put a figurehead Emperor on the throne whom he could control. This figurehead would have to be related to Titus Mede in some way, like a son or brother. Legally speaking, that person is the most viable heir.