Join Empire or Stormcloaks? My Thoughts

[kimmera]

CaptainPatch,

 

re: "Thereafter, the AD High Command would not be aware of that defeat until word of it was carried to Summerset Isle. "

 

There are numerous references to magical scrying, and are likely other means of getting messages out. This does not equate to being able to communicate in real time or coordinate armies in such a manner, but central command may well have known quickly.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

The Thalmor couldn't defeat Hammerfell, how could they defeat Hammerfell and Cyrodil together? I know the Empire was in bad shape, but they were in better shape than Hammerfell at the end of the war, and Hammerfell had 4 of its cities sacked. Although TMII and some of his generals felt the Empire could not continue, Ulfric was there the day the Empire signed the WGC and didn't agree with their assessment, and neither did the Redguards. TMII made his call, and weather it was correct or not is hard to tell with the evidence we have.

 

The Empire had summoned all the help that would come from Hammerfell, and while that would have left them vulnerable to an AD counterattack, the AD were likely just as weakened as the Empire. If the AD committed less to Cyrodil because they thought the Empire was still in Hammerfell, wouldn't they have instead committed those troops to Hammerfell?

 

@CaptianPatch

 

McClellan also was too hesitant too commit his troops, leaving many of his men in reserve during decisive points in battles. The AD didn't need to commit all of their reserves, but if they had any after the Battle of the Red Ring, Hammerfell would have been a place that needed them, because without them the AD could not advance. So unless the AD didn't want the rest of Hammerfell, for whatever reason, it makes no sense for them to stop advancing unless they had no choice.

 

The AD lost one battle, but it was a major battle that completely wiped out their main army, which would have destroyed morale for them and raised morale for the Empire, as well as allowing the Empire time to regroup while the AD got together their army for a second assault.

 

He never mentions the race of any of the soldiers in Hammerfell, so we don't know for sure, but I think it is likely that most of the ones who stayed behind would be redguards, because they would feel more loyalty to Hammerfell than to Cyrodil. While soldiers will be proud of their time in the legion, they are not still legionnaires if they decide to rebel against the Empire.

 

Once again, if the only reason the AD attacked Hammerfell was to weaken Cyrodil, why didn't they leave after the Empire surrendered, instead choosing to endure five years of bloody fighting before they left?

 

The 13 states were also much smaller than Hammerfell, at least I think they are, still haven't found an accurate scale of Tamriel yet. And the AD wanted to keep Hammerfell, if they didn't why was it a term in the treaty? They probably changed their minds right before they left, not a few years before.

 

"...new moot and a new vote for High King." Not a vote for a new High King, but a new vote for High King. Their is nothing that says the current High King can't win this moot.

 

We know the AD wanted to take Hegathe, I find it more likely that they couldn't take it rather than they wouldn't take it, but since that is all speculation I can't prove it.

 

The AD could train more troops, but so could the Empire, and the Empire does have more territories to draw troops from. Also, while farmers wouldn't be as good at fighting as trained soldiers, some of them would already be good archers, while others would be trained with swords to protect themselves from bandits and creatures.

 

Why would the AD waste their time burning land that they still planned on ruling, especially when they were busy besieging Hegathe?

 

And why wouldn't the AD finish the Empire now when they are weak, rather than letting them recover to fight again?

[kimmera]

Elimc,

 

Again, you are assuming that the AD were trying to 'defeat' Hammerfell. Hammerfell didn't start pushing them back at all until the AD switched priorities. And there was no 'Cyrodiil plus Hammerfell' after the Battle of the Red Ring. Cyrodiil was no longer able to continue fighting.

 

Seriously, you keep ignoring that line from The Great War. You keep saying "The Empire was in better shape" but ignore the line 'The Empire was in no shape to continue."

 

Ulfric wasn't 'there.' He may have known his own supply situation but he was a militia commander, not an Imperial General.

 

As for committing the extra troops to Hammerfell, again, you really don't understand the concept of reserve troops, contingencies or supply. You show no understanding at all of the strategic side of war.

 

If the AD were in the same shape as Cyrodiil, then Hammerfell would have walked all over them, not been fought to a standstill.

 

While there is nothing that says the current king can't win the moot, it is very unlikely that the current high king would, unless the challenger was completely frivolous.

[CaptainPatch]

Elimc, on 02 Sept 2015 - 8:06 PM, said:

@CaptianPatch

 

McClellan also was too hesitant too commit his troops, leaving many of his men in reserve during decisive points in battles. The AD didn't need to commit all of their reserves, but if they had any after the Battle of the Red Ring, Hammerfell would have been a place that needed them, because without them the AD could not advance. So unless the AD didn't want the rest of Hammerfell, for whatever reason, it makes no sense for them to stop advancing unless they had no choice.

--------------------

The more I hear of your conjectures, the more I understand your affinity with Ulfric: neither of you clearly understand Strategy. You consistently paint a best-case scenario for your side and pit it against a worst-case scenario for your opponents. You present Tactics for a Strategic-level situation. You miss the point that the AD wanted to take southern Hammerfell from the Empire. You miss the point that in five years of fighting, the front Line in Hammerfell never moved. The AD held Gilane, Taneth, and Rihad. They never made any campaign to expand that zone, otherwise there would have been mention of failed campaigns. And the Redguards, after relieving Hegathe, NEVER made any inroads into the zone held by the AD, though there IS mention that the Redguards didn't stop fighting the AD throughout those five years. The reason the AD never reinforced Hammerfell is because it didn't need to. You make the very basic, very erroneous assumption that the enemy has the exact same priorities and motivations that would apply to _you_ in their situation. You apparently can't even conceive that other commanders could possibly have a goal other than the one that would apply to you.

 

The AD lost one battle, but it was a major battle that completely wiped out their main army, which would have destroyed morale for them and raised morale for the Empire, as well as allowing the Empire time to regroup while the AD got together their army for a second assault.

You entirely overlook that Morale can simultaneously be affected in BOTH negative and positive directions. The Empire won, but every surviving unit had suffered at least 50% casualties. How do you think it affects the survivors to KNOW that over half of their friends and comrades in arms just died? How would they react if they were told that after having suffered those losses, they were expected to push forward further, engage the enemy again, despite the fact that every Imperial unit was at less than half-strength? Berserker Nords may just love the idea, given that they believe that dying in battle is a sure way to get into Sovngarde. But what about the surviving Bretons, Imperials, and Redguards? The Redguards in particular, as they know that while they are fighting in Cyrodiil, for Cyrodiil, their homeland is being ravaged. Yes, the AD lost ONE battle in Cyrodiil. But do you honestly think they would fall to pieces because they lost ONE battle out of an entire campaign? Especially if they know that the Empire had to scrape the bottom of the barrel to win its ONE victory. It's a golden opportunity! Pulling together a fresh force from surrounding garrisons + reserves would more than likely be enough to make the Empire totally collapse.

 

He never mentions the race of any of the soldiers in Hammerfell, so we don't know for sure, but I think it is likely that most of the ones who stayed behind would be redguards, because they would feel more loyalty to Hammerfell than to Cyrodil. While soldiers will be proud of their time in the legion, they are not still legionnaires if they decide to rebel against the Empire.

Except that who stays as an "invalid" is NOT their choice. It's the Legion commander's choice. Do you think he would bother to pull dossiers on each soldier to check where they are from? He would by necessity because of time restraints just designate several cohorts and have a clerk declare them to be casualties, unfit for further military service. [Historical note: Empires over the ages have learned that if at all possible, units stationed in a province should NOT be entirely or mostly recruited from that province. Rebellion is a constant concern. If that province rebels, soldiers of the Empire would be hesitant to fight against their kinsmen. Or worse, desert to join the rebels. "Foreigners", otoh, are much more likely to follow orders without hesitation. The Legion in Skyrim is very much unusual because it is 100% (minus Tullius) Skyrimmers. That's because the Empire had NO Legion assets in Skyrim, everything having been sent to Cyrodiil. Which means that it had to recruit local for the local Legion. (Fortunately, Skyrim being Skyrim, there was no lack of retired legionnaires to recall to active duty. For both sides of the civil war.]

 

Once again, if the only reason the AD attacked Hammerfell was to weaken Cyrodil, why didn't they leave after the Empire surrendered, instead choosing to endure five years of bloody fighting before they left?

The obvious reason is because it was for reasons that you wouldn't agree with nor understand. Since "Actions speak louder than words", the fact that they stayed, unreinforced, meant that the AD felt it was worthwhile.

The 13 states were also much smaller than Hammerfell, at least I think they are, still haven't found an accurate scale of Tamriel yet. And the AD wanted to keep Hammerfell, if they didn't why was it a term in the treaty? They probably changed their minds right before they left, not a few years before

Some of the Colonies were smaller -- RI, VT, NH, MD, DE, and CT for example. Others -- MA, NY, PA, VA, NC, SC, GA were very much on a par with Hammerfell, High Rock, Cyrodiil, and Skyrim. (Given that Tamriel is about the same size as Australia.) As for demanding southern Hammerfell, it works for the AD on two levels. First, ownership would transfer to the AD. And second, if the Empire acceded to the demand, the Redguards of Hammerfell would go bonkers mad at the Empire and potentially spark a civil war. Likewise, the demand to ban Talos worship was guaranteed to make Skyrim go bonkers mad and possibly start a civil war there. (Which it did.) The WGC actually gave them more than they had hoped for, totally severing ALL of Hammerfell from the Empire.

"...new moot and a new vote for High King." Not a vote for a new High King, but a new vote for High King. Their is nothing that says the current High King can't win this moot.

plus

While there is nothing that says the current king can't win the moot, it is very unlikely that the current high king would, unless the challenger was completely frivolous.

Read the excerpt from UESP again. A living High King can cause a Moot to be called if there has been a loss of confidence in that High King. That means that the living High King is already out of the job and the Moot must choose his replacement.

 

We know the AD wanted to take Hegathe, I find it more likely that they couldn't take it rather than they wouldn't take it, but since that is all speculation I can't prove it.

I actually agree with you. They wanted. Tried to take it. Failed. Withdrew. And never tried to make a grab for it again. For their purposes, they obviously didn't need it. Would have been nice to have it, but not really required as long as they still held Gilane, Taneth, and Rihad.

 

The AD could train more troops, but so could the Empire, and the Empire does have more territories to draw troops from. Also, while farmers wouldn't be as good at fighting as trained soldiers, some of them would already be good archers, while others would be trained with swords to protect themselves from bandits and creatures.

But the Empire would need to train new recruits from scratch before they would be worthwhile in warfare. The AD, otoh, already had trained units scattered about their empire to draw upon. The newly-raised units requiring training could take over the deployments of the active duty units and train-in-place. All they would require in the way of veterans is a very small cadre of instructor-officers/noncoms. In short, the AD could almost immediately field an entire trained and experienced army to face off with the survivors of the Battle of the Red Ring plus whatever hastily recruited newbies with ZERO combat experience. As for your comment about "good archers": What? You think that the AD wouldn't have those too?

 

Why would the AD waste their time burning land that they still planned on ruling, especially when they were busy besieging Hegathe?

Burn? Mostly in campfires perhaps. LOTS of firewood required to keep the besiegers warm at night. Clearing any forest back a couple miles is also SOP to create unobstructed lines of sight to reduce the chance of being surprised by an enemy army arriving from outside of the siege. If scouts spotted the forces from Sentinel approaching from a lllooonnnggg way away, and it was determined that the AD forces were insufficient to stop it from breaking the siege, the Thalmor (being the bastards they are) might have thought that creating a major forest fire for the Redguards to pass through would greatly aid their retreat from the failed siege. [Though, tbh, as it was early in the year, the forests most likely were too damp to be more than a sputter in several places rather than a raging inferno.]

 

And why wouldn't the AD finish the Empire now when they are weak, rather than letting them recover to fight again?

Because one does not gorge on a substantial feast all at once. The AD would have had to garrison ALL at once, heavily, or suffer a "death of a thousand cuts" as bandits, rebels, partisans, and organized resistance fighters kept ambushing isolated Thalmor on patrol or traveling in small numbers. The long-term AD strategy is actually pretty apparent. It acquired Valenwood and stopped there. Assimilated it. Acquired Elsweyr and stopped there. Assimilated it. This time around, the goal was to grab half of Hammerfell. (Did you notice that the initial invasion went after ONLY Crown cities?) Didn't keep it, but if after being separated from the Empire caused Hammerfell to devolve into political anarchy, it may very well be reduced to a bunch of squabbling independent city-states -- which would be able to be more easily captured and assimilated, one at a time, over a century or more.

Edited September 3, 2015 by CaptainPatch

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Cyrodil was no longer able to continue fighting according to TMII, his generals, and most Imperial supporters. According to Ulfric, Galmar, and most Redguards, it was able to continue fighting, but it decided to surrender because TMII and his generals were cowards who would rather throw their provinces under the bus than fight.

 

Ulfric was there, and although he wasn't a general he would have seen what kind of shape the army was in.

 

Why would the AD suddenly stop their advance into Hammerfell if they could have kept advancing? They were still trying to take Hegathe in 4E173, which is after they shifted priorities, so if they stopped moving because they didn't want Hammerfell, why didn't they stop earlier?

 

The AD's army in Cyrodil was worse off than the Empire's army, and if they tried to reinforce it from Hammerfell, then the Redguards could push into Valenwood, forcing the AD to fall back to defend itself. If the AD has all these reserves, then why didn't they just use them to destroy the Empire, man, and Talos worship all at once, instead of waiting for another 20 years? I know they play a long game, but if you have victory in your hands, why would you give it up and let the enemy recover?

 

So you are saying that most Jarls would vote for Ulfric, even though we know that at least 3 of them are against him.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

The AD made two failed campains to expand their territory in Hammerfell, and after the second one they were too weakened to continue advancing. "Aldmeri were too weakened to continue their advance"

 

You assume that the AD has unlimited fresh forces just waiting to attack, and that the Empire has committed every possible asset they will ever get, and won't be able to get any reinforcements from anywhere until they surrender. Again, why wouldn't the AD just wipe out the Empire if they could just "Pull together a fresh force from surrounding garrisons + reserves would more than likely be enough to make the Empire totally collapse." I know they play a long game, but the point of the game is to destroy the Empire, and if it was that easy they would have just done it.

 

If the troops who were left behind were Imperials, why would they have felt such an urge to defend Hammerfell at the expense of Cyrodil, and why would they have stayed in Hammerfell after it declared independence from the Empire?

 

The fact that the AD did not reinforce their position in Hammerfell is not a fact at all, but a speculation you have made to help prove your point. What if the AD, realizing that Hammerfell was a threat to them, threw everything they could afford to throw at Hammerfell, and were defeated? That is just as likely as the scenario you have outlined.

 

Where is it given that Tamriel is about the size of Australia?

 

No, it means there will be a vote to see if the old High King will be impeached or not.

 

Or maybe the AD never tried again because they were barely holding onto what they had, and couldn't afford to attack because they didn't have enough men.

 

High Rock probably has many aspiring heroes who know how to fight, and it is easier to get recruits to the front when you don't have to move them across an undefined distance of land to get them into the battle. Also, what if the AD had thrown in all their reserves when they took the Imperial City, expecting it to be the battle that ended the war? Sure, they would have left themselves undefended, but it would have won them the war if TMII hadn't fled the city. So maybe the AD also has no reserves.

 

The Crowns and Forbears in Hammerfell are now united after Hegathe, and Hammerfell isn't High Rock, it would split into two factions, not many city-states. If the AD wanted southern Hammerfell, why didn't they take it? Instead they separated Hammerfell from the Empire, which is so weakened the legion can't even keep the peace in their capitol province, allowing it to recover on its own.

[kimmera]

@Kimmera

 

Cyrodil was no longer able to continue fighting according to TMII, his generals, and most Imperial supporters. According to Ulfric, Galmar, and most Redguards, it was able to continue fighting, but it decided to surrender because TMII and his generals were cowards who would rather throw their provinces under the bus than fight.

 

Ulfric was there, and although he wasn't a general he would have seen what kind of shape the army was in.

 

Why would the AD suddenly stop their advance into Hammerfell if they could have kept advancing? They were still trying to take Hegathe in 4E173, which is after they shifted priorities, so if they stopped moving because they didn't want Hammerfell, why didn't they stop earlier?

 

The AD's army in Cyrodil was worse off than the Empire's army, and if they tried to reinforce it from Hammerfell, then the Redguards could push into Valenwood, forcing the AD to fall back to defend itself. If the AD has all these reserves, then why didn't they just use them to destroy the Empire, man, and Talos worship all at once, instead of waiting for another 20 years? I know they play a long game, but if you have victory in your hands, why would you give it up and let the enemy recover?

 

So you are saying that most Jarls would vote for Ulfric, even though we know that at least 3 of them are against him.

 

@CaptainPatch

 

The AD made two failed campains to expand their territory in Hammerfell, and after the second one they were too weakened to continue advancing. "Aldmeri were too weakened to continue their advance"

 

You assume that the AD has unlimited fresh forces just waiting to attack, and that the Empire has committed every possible asset they will ever get, and won't be able to get any reinforcements from anywhere until they surrender. Again, why wouldn't the AD just wipe out the Empire if they could just "Pull together a fresh force from surrounding garrisons + reserves would more than likely be enough to make the Empire totally collapse." I know they play a long game, but the point of the game is to destroy the Empire, and if it was that easy they would have just done it.

 

If the troops who were left behind were Imperials, why would they have felt such an urge to defend Hammerfell at the expense of Cyrodil, and why would they have stayed in Hammerfell after it declared independence from the Empire?

 

The fact that the AD did not reinforce their position in Hammerfell is not a fact at all, but a speculation you have made to help prove your point. What if the AD, realizing that Hammerfell was a threat to them, threw everything they could afford to throw at Hammerfell, and were defeated? That is just as likely as the scenario you have outlined.

 

Where is it given that Tamriel is about the size of Australia?

 

No, it means there will be a vote to see if the old High King will be impeached or not.

 

Or maybe the AD never tried again because they were barely holding onto what they had, and couldn't afford to attack because they didn't have enough men.

 

High Rock probably has many aspiring heroes who know how to fight, and it is easier to get recruits to the front when you don't have to move them across an undefined distance of land to get them into the battle. Also, what if the AD had thrown in all their reserves when they took the Imperial City, expecting it to be the battle that ended the war? Sure, they would have left themselves undefended, but it would have won them the war if TMII hadn't fled the city. So maybe the AD also has no reserves.

 

The Crowns and Forbears in Hammerfell are now united after Hegathe, and Hammerfell isn't High Rock, it would split into two factions, not many city-states. If the AD wanted southern Hammerfell, why didn't they take it? Instead they separated Hammerfell from the Empire, which is so weakened the legion can't even keep the peace in their capitol province, allowing it to recover on its own.

 

Ulfric was not in a position to judge the Empire's situation. He wasn't that high in rank. He was just a militia commander. Galmar was even lower ranked. The Redguard forces weren't even anywhere near Cyrodiil. Some private on guard duty somewhere says the Empire has enough strength to take over the world! Hooray, lets all charge into battle on her say so!

 

Seriously, so much of your argument that Ulfric should be supported relies on 'Ulfric thinks he should be supported.'

 

We have discussed why the AD would just hold the line ad-nauseum. You just don't like the answers.

 

Incorrect. The AD's army in Imperial City lost to the combined Imperial forces, which was their main army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed. That was not necessarily all their forces in Cyrodiil, let alone reserves in their own territory. It seems unlikely that they left no garrisons, nor any forces protecting their supply lines from raiders or bandits.

 

You keep assuming that only conventional warfare is in play. They didn't engage in genocide, so it is quite possible that they need humans alive for their plans. And holding territory is a lot tougher than just defeating it. See Iraq for an obvious modern example. Moreover, you seem to go to extremes. 'Enough to continue' is not the same as 'enough to achieve total absolute annihilation.'

 

Again, it is possible that you are completely right about the status of the AD forces, but you still don't seem to acknowledge that you may be wrong and what the consequences of being wrong would be.

 

By the way, even if the AD threw everything into IC, any wise commander would have pulled some of those forces back out again to cover supply and suppress insurrection after the victory. They had several months to adjust deployments.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Ulfric could still see the condition that the soldiers were in, and while he wouldn't be in a position to make a complete judgement, from his perspective at least, the Empire was able to keep on fighting if it had wanted to. If there were only a few men left alive, and the army was starving, or morale was really low, he would have realized why the Empire made the call to surrender. MAYBE his regiment was the only one that was doing okay and everyone else wasn't, but that is unlikely.

 

Also, do you know what Ulfric's rank was, or are you just making it up based on the militia he commanded during the Markarth Incident?

 

No, I don't think the answers make any sense. If the AD wanted southern Hammerfell badly enough to fight five years to keep it, they wanted it bad enough to not just pull out because their general didn't want to commit any of their supposedly vast number of reserves.

 

Their main army was destroyed, their garrisons in Anvil and Kvatch would still be intact, but now they wouldn't know the Empire's strength, and would likely be demoralized by having their main army killed down to the last mer.

 

The AD has never had the opportunity to engage in genocide of all humans, so you don't know that they need them alive, and it seems more likely that they don't. The Empire didn't need to invade the AD, they just needed to force them out of Cyrodil.

 

The consequences of me being wrong is that the world will end, but the same thing goes for you being wrong. If you are wrong, but the Empire wins, then the Empire will eventually crumble and the AD will step in and take over, facing minimal resistance.

 

They wouldn't have kept all their forces there, but they might have kept the majority at least near the city, meaning they would be wiped out in the Battle of the Red Ring as well.

[kimmera]

Ulfric couldn't see the condition of any men other than his own. He certainly couldn't know the entire supply situation. Moreover, the Thalmor told him that he personally had been more effective against them than he really had, i.e. that the Empire's situation was better than it really was.

 

I am basing my assessment of Ulfric's position on the fact that he was a militia leader, not an Imperial regular. Otherwise, he would have been court martialed for demanding concessions before agreeing to re-take Markarth. There are no references to him having held any Imperial rank nor of him being retired from Imperial service. At the time he was the son of a Jarl, not High King, not a Jarl, not a General.

 

... You are ignoring the concept that Hammerfell fought for five years without asking for peace, and that the AD withdrawing would not have automatically meant the Redguard not exploiting any such retreat. Wars don't have easy off switches or guaranteed exit strategies. Again, look at Iraq for an example.

 

You are assuming that the Thalmor have no espionage capacity, but they still had their spy network fully intact whereas the Blades had been decimated (we know this from the main quest). As such, the Thalmor still had means to assess the Imperial situation, while the Empire had no such ability to assess the AD. As for morale, remember the end goal is to reset all of reality. What do casualties matter if your plan is to retroactively erase your own existence?

 

They could have killed all civilian populations in areas they controlled. There is no evidence of even an attempt to do so. Their plan functions on a metaphysical level. All bets are off as to what they need.

 

If I am wrong, then the Empire still has Skyrim, High Rock and Cyrodiil united under a central command. If you are wrong, then Skyrim tries to take them on solo, quite likely having to weaken itself initially against the remnants of Cyrodiil first. Your route is high risk and assumes the threat is imminent. Mine is cautious and takes on the AD long game vs long game.

 

Guarding supply lines is not done by only guarding near the army. I have said this a few times now but you really need to study strategy and logistics.

[Elimc]

@Kimmera

 

Do you know what rank Ulfric was, or if he talked to other commanders once he arrived back in Skyrim who were generals? Also, where in the Dossier on Ulfric does it say that the Thalmor told Ulfric he had been more effective against them than he really had been?

 

Ulfric could have retired from the army to train in becoming a Jarl after the Great War ended, there is no evidence at all of any positions he may have held.

 

Hammerfell probably didn't have the force to successfully invade the AD, so they just wanted their land back to be able to rebuild.

 

The Empire still had some blades left at the end of the Great War, otherwise their disbandment wouldn't have been a term in the treaty. I don't think all the elves in the army of the AD even know that they are fighting to undo the world, that is probably kept secret by the Thalmor to prevent uprisings from elves who don't want to end the world.

 

There is no evidence that they didn't kill all the civilians that they could. There is no evidence at all. Also, since they plan to wipe out Talos worship, the best bet to do so would be just to kill all men, since you never know if one person is secretly worshiping Talos.

 

If you are wrong, the Empire will collapse under its own weight, and there will be minimal resistance when the AD comes. If I am wrong, the provinces will be all split up, and they will all fall separately. But your plan relies on the Empire recovering, and I have evidence that the Empire is not recovering.

 

The AD threw everything they could into the Battle of the Red Ring, calling reinforcements from as far as Anvil and Kvatch. So I was wrong, it wasn't just their troops in or near the city that were killed, but probably the vast majority of all their troops in Cyrodil, since Lord Naarfiin would have called for all troops to attack the IC in an attempt to prevent himself from being killed. And the troops guarding supply lines back in the AD's territory would need to stay there, or they could have a rebellion in Valenwood on their hands.

[kimmera]

Elimc,

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak

 

Ulfric was a prisoner during most of the White Gold tower campaign, and then allowed to escape. After interrogation, he was led to believe that he had given up vitally important data (despite the fact he hadn't known any important data).

 

We are done here, I think. We are just going around in circles. You will believe what you want to believe, and it is fiction, so no harm in that.